IRC log of pbgsc on 2022-01-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:52:39 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
15:52:39 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/01/14-pbgsc-irc
15:52:41 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:52:42 [Zakim]
Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
15:53:04 [Ralph]
present: Wolfgang, Ralph
15:53:36 [wolfgang]
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15:59:32 [Ralph]
present+ Cristina
15:59:36 [wendyreid]
present+
15:59:49 [Ralph]
present+ Tzviya
15:59:57 [Ralph]
present+ Avneesh
16:00:17 [wolfgang]
present+ wolfgang
16:01:02 [Ralph]
present+ Zheng, George, Ivan
16:01:02 [mateus]
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16:01:02 [avneeshsingh]
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16:01:12 [avneeshsingh]
present+
16:01:19 [Ralph]
present+ WendyReid
16:02:00 [Ralph]
present+ Liisa
16:02:34 [GeorgeK]
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16:02:48 [GeorgeK]
present+
16:03:14 [Ralph]
zakim, next item
16:03:14 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Welcome Wolfgang to the Committee -- taken up [from Ralph]
16:03:27 [Ralph]
chair: Tzviya
16:04:15 [Ralph]
Tzviya: Wolfgang will be joining Mateus and Zheng to co-chair the Publishing CG
16:04:43 [Ralph]
Wolfgang: my focus is on XML and XML technology, in particular conversions using XSLT, etc.
16:04:54 [Ralph]
... I am co-author of the IDPF glossaries spec
16:05:05 [Ralph]
... happy to assist and chair the CG
16:05:18 [Ralph]
... I use XML every day
16:05:25 [Ralph]
... even a bit of XProc
16:05:31 [Bill_Kasdorf]
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16:05:33 [Ralph]
... my main tool is XSLT
16:05:40 [Ralph]
... I use a lot of XQuery too
16:06:20 [Ralph]
Tzviya: great that you're joining us
16:06:25 [Ralph]
zakim, next item
16:06:25 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Report on the planned BG Commmunity Day event -- taken up [from Ralph]
16:06:39 [Ralph]
Tzviya: we'd like to hear more about the plans
16:06:51 [Ralph]
Liisa: we're doing 2 90-minute sessions on February 1
16:07:04 [Ralph]
... extending each of our regular sessions by 30 minutes
16:07:21 [Ralph]
Cristina: we will invite the CEO of @@ ; a platform for delivering digital comics and manga
16:07:30 [Ralph]
... digital comics is moving in Italy and elsewhere
16:07:41 [Ralph]
... there is a European project on digital comics
16:07:57 [Ralph]
... I will contact someone from Japan to speak on that as well
16:08:06 [zheng_xu__]
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16:08:11 [Ralph]
... it is one of the fastest-growing markets in publishing, particularly in trade
16:08:23 [zheng_xu__]
present+
16:08:25 [Ralph]
Liisa: we're also working on pulling togther some panel discussion on education
16:08:29 [Ralph]
... working on finalizing speakers
16:08:32 [Bill_Kasdorf]
q+
16:08:47 [Ralph]
... and looking to have an open dialog on other topics, with some breakouts
16:08:51 [Ralph]
... welcome ideas on topics
16:08:52 [tzviya]
ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:09:03 [Ralph]
Bill: does "education" refer to higher ed, k12, or both?
16:09:07 [tzviya]
q+ to ask when agenda will be available
16:09:16 [tzviya]
ack me
16:09:16 [Zakim]
tzviya, you wanted to ask when agenda will be available
16:09:17 [Ralph]
Liisa: what's happened in the last 2 years; where is the business going?
16:09:23 [Cristina]
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16:09:41 [Cristina]
present+
16:09:56 [Ralph]
Tzivya: Karen Myers asked if an agenda could be published asap, even a draft, so she can recruit more participants
16:10:03 [Ralph]
Liisa: we'd like to record the session
16:10:17 [Ralph]
... not the breakout roons
16:10:21 [Ralph]
s/ns/ms/
16:10:54 [Ralph]
... hoping for 3-4 breakouts
16:10:56 [mateus]
present+
16:10:57 [GeorgeK]
q+
16:11:02 [Ralph]
... want one of us in each breakout to facilitiate
16:11:06 [wendyreid]
q+
16:11:08 [Bill_Kasdorf]
present+
16:11:34 [Ralph]
... hoping to let people choose which breakout they attend
16:11:34 [tzviya]
ack GeorgeK
16:11:36 [liisamk]
liisamk has joined #pbgsc
16:11:58 [Ralph]
George: the global certified accessible content that's hitting higher ed is beautiful stuff
16:12:06 [Ralph]
... I can reach out to Michael Johnson if you like
16:12:10 [Ralph]
Liisa: that would be great
16:12:13 [Bill_Kasdorf]
+1 to George
16:12:19 [tzviya]
ack wendyreid
16:12:24 [Ralph]
George: I'll give him some background and ask him to get in touch with Liisa directly
16:12:38 [Ralph]
WendyR: in Zoom breakout rooms the captioning doesn't work
16:13:02 [Ralph]
Tzviya: ideas for breakout topics?
16:13:37 [Ralph]
... breakouts tend to work out well when they follow up on the discussion that you just had
16:13:43 [Ralph]
... there's a lot of opinions on comics
16:13:55 [Ralph]
... perhaps breakouts following up on comics and textbooks
16:14:06 [tzviya]
ack Ralph
16:14:06 [Ralph]
... if the presenters are talking about the technical parts
16:14:26 [GeorgeK]
q+
16:14:31 [Ralph]
Ralph: +1
16:14:37 [tzviya]
ack ge
16:14:47 [Ralph]
George: we're about publishing, not just EPUB
16:15:05 [Ralph]
... there's the issue of journals, which are really important and many companies have 'download as EPUB'
16:15:13 [Ralph]
... I wonder if that area needs to be explored more
16:15:23 [Ralph]
... and a11y in journals is something that needs attention
16:15:34 [zheng_xu__]
q+
16:15:55 [Ralph]
Tzviya: [with Wiley hat] individual journal articles aren't very popular to users as EPUBs
16:16:20 [Ralph]
... maybe for a future Community Day we could invite someone from Atypon to talk about journal articles
16:16:33 [Ralph]
... most publishers make their journal articles available as HTML
16:16:52 [Ralph]
... best practices for HTML would be a good future discussion
16:16:58 [tzviya]
ack zh
16:17:12 [Ralph]
George: publishers also offer download as PDF, so ... as EPUB should happen
16:17:26 [Ralph]
Zheng: I can talk about conversion from HTML to EPUB as a use example
16:17:34 [liisamk]
q+
16:18:10 [Ralph]
... is there any common general use example that I can try out?
16:18:27 [Bill_Kasdorf]
q+
16:18:28 [Ralph]
... to demonstrate my conversion tool -- which is on GitHub
16:18:49 [Ralph]
George: we'd be very interested in looking at that and see how well it conforms to the a11y specs
16:18:58 [tzviya]
ack li
16:18:58 [Ralph]
... metadata might be hard
16:19:11 [Ralph]
Zheng: yes; I'd like to look at that
16:19:51 [Ralph]
Liisa: we'd wondered if there's room in the Community Day to understand more about news and newspapers and how people are dealing with that in their workflow, best practices, etc.
16:19:59 [Ralph]
... that might be a future Community Day
16:20:13 [tzviya]
ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:20:21 [Ralph]
... WaPo had been present in the BG but hasn't attended recently
16:20:21 [tzviya]
q+
16:20:34 [Ralph]
Bill: look at PLOS; many journals are open access now
16:21:04 [Ralph]
-> https://plos.org/ PLOS
16:21:21 [Ralph]
... another organization is Hyper@@; a news media SDO
16:21:33 [tzviya]
ack me
16:21:37 [Ralph]
... I could provide many potential speakers for news if you wish
16:21:47 [Bill_Kasdorf]
s/Hyper@@/IPTC
16:21:49 [Ralph]
Tzivya: news is very different from [scholarly] journals
16:22:18 [Bill_Kasdorf]
+1 to Tzviya
16:22:18 [Ralph]
... the way content is generated is very different
16:22:30 [Ralph]
... several of us know lots of people in each world
16:22:35 [Ralph]
... they're treated very differently
16:22:51 [Ralph]
... EPUB has not taken off in either of these and is not likely to
16:23:04 [Ralph]
... we can discuss if they are looking for further specifications
16:23:26 [Ralph]
Liisa: Daihei has said that he's hearing in Japan that they are happy with EPUB and are looking for business opportunities in content
16:23:38 [Ralph]
... that's why they're trying to understand how all this other stuff happens
16:23:42 [Ralph]
... looking at workflows
16:23:46 [zheng_xu__]
The tool I mentioned to convert html to epub: https://github.com/gardenia-corp/wyse
16:23:49 [dauwhe]
present+
16:23:55 [tzviya]
ack Ralph
16:24:24 [Ralph]
Tzviya: we have some interesting ideas for future seminars
16:24:31 [Ralph]
zakim, next item
16:24:31 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Community Group user stories -- taken up [from Ralph]
16:24:51 [wendyreid]
scribe+
16:25:22 [wendyreid]
mateus: At the CG meeting this week, Zheng, Wolfgang and i introduced a new idea for collaborating
16:25:32 [wendyreid]
... anyone who is documenting requirements for new publishing use cases
16:25:41 [wendyreid]
... the BG could be one of those collaborations
16:25:52 [wendyreid]
... one idea is to share a template that documents use cases
16:26:03 [wendyreid]
... to do that, document requirements as user stories
16:26:20 [wendyreid]
... so what we would like to do in the CG is to collect use cases as they come up
16:26:26 [wendyreid]
... like when we learn of a new idea
16:26:36 [wendyreid]
... when we file them, we do so using a common template
16:27:13 [wendyreid]
... it's a statement that goes like "As a [user], I want to [something] so that [goal]"
16:27:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/14-pbgsc-minutes.html Ralph
16:27:39 [wendyreid]
... an example "as an instructor, I want to annotate my text with my students, so I can drive engagement in my course"
16:27:48 [wendyreid]
... unified language in the requirements
16:28:04 [wendyreid]
... and in a way that avoids us jumping to a solution and instead focuses on the problems and centres the user
16:28:10 [wendyreid]
... who will benefit
16:28:22 [wendyreid]
... might help us target specific parts of the community better
16:28:38 [wendyreid]
... we'd like to work with the BG on use cases we already know about
16:28:47 [wendyreid]
... we'll document them in the CG GH as individual issues
16:28:59 [wendyreid]
... beyond that, we can start identifiying how to dig into these issues
16:29:07 [wendyreid]
... incubate, document more details, etc
16:29:34 [wendyreid]
mateus: Hopefully we can use this in our upcoming meetings
16:29:36 [tzviya]
ack Ralph
16:29:39 [wendyreid]
Ralph: This is brilliant
16:29:51 [wendyreid]
... it's important to teach W3C community how to do this kind of user story
16:29:59 [wendyreid]
... too many of us go to solutions
16:30:08 [wendyreid]
... kudos to the cg
16:30:14 [tzviya]
https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/user-experience-mapping/9781787123502/92d21fe3-a741-49ff-8200-25abf18c98d0.xhtml
16:30:16 [Ralph]
scribe+
16:30:28 [Ralph]
Tzviya: this is sometimes called the Connextra template ^^
16:30:34 [liisamk]
q+
16:30:41 [Ralph]
s/go to/instantly go to/
16:30:49 [mateus]
q+
16:30:52 [Ralph]
... we also give such examples from EPUB
16:31:12 [Ralph]
... "as a reader I'd like to be able to jump to chapter 7 so that ..."
16:31:22 [tzviya]
ack li
16:31:28 [Ralph]
... that might be done by a ToC but we don't say "as a reader I want a Table of Contents"
16:31:56 [Ralph]
Liisa: did Daihei reach out to schedule time next week for us to work through scheduling a joint CG+BG meeting and move forward on some of these cases?
16:31:58 [tzviya]
ack ma
16:32:03 [Ralph]
Mateus: not yet
16:32:11 [Ralph]
... but I have some availability next week
16:32:29 [Ralph]
Liisa: noon ET on Wednesday?
16:32:43 [Ralph]
Mateus: unfortunately that doesn't work for me
16:32:55 [tzviya]
q+
16:32:56 [Ralph]
... as Ralph noted, not everyone is used to this way of framing problems
16:33:28 [Ralph]
... there's definitely some back-and-forth in writing user stories and I don't view that as a problem
16:33:48 [Ralph]
... the CG is happy to help people write stories in this way
16:34:01 [tzviya]
ack me
16:34:08 [Ralph]
... and we're planning to write some of the EPUB examples as user stories to help people get used to thinking in this way
16:34:09 [wolfgang]
+1 to Mateus
16:34:50 [Ralph]
Tzviya: and others of us can help in directing the conversation to the actual problem to solve rather than a particular solution
16:34:56 [liisamk]
q+
16:35:00 [Ralph]
... and "user" can be "machine" too; a reading system
16:35:03 [tzviya]
ack liisamk
16:35:16 [Ralph]
Liisa: this gets me back to something we talked about here several months ago
16:35:39 [Ralph]
... I'm still seeing questions out there questions on what is good a11y for EPUBs on very specific content scanearios
16:35:45 [Ralph]
... and not having a place for a broad dialog
16:35:58 [Ralph]
... e.g. we made some changes to the way we deal with indices
16:36:19 [tzviya]
q+
16:36:20 [Ralph]
... we noticed that sometimes an index entry goes to a [foot|end] note
16:36:31 [zheng_xu__]
q+
16:36:36 [Ralph]
... we wondered what is the right thing for a11y; what is the right place to go?
16:36:37 [tzviya]
ack me
16:36:43 [Ralph]
... we need a place to have that discussion
16:36:53 [Ralph]
Tzviya: it's fine to have that discussion in the BG
16:37:01 [Ralph]
... we haven't had a place to discuss best practices
16:37:21 [Ralph]
... best practices might be different for different cases
16:37:33 [Ralph]
... I'm not sure I want to commit to writing best practices
16:37:44 [wendyreid]
q+
16:37:55 [Ralph]
... but DPUB-ARIA is taking up some work on how to use ARIA properly
16:38:00 [tzviya]
ack zheng_xu__
16:38:05 [Ralph]
... how to tag an endnote properly with ARIA may take years
16:38:15 [Ralph]
Zheng: that's a good example to define a use case
16:38:28 [Ralph]
... I'm happy to help transforming that into a use case
16:38:39 [tzviya]
s/DPUB-ARIA is taking up some work on how to use ARIA properly/ARIA APG will add examples from DPUB-ARIA
16:38:46 [Ralph]
... it would be a good start to write it down as a story
16:38:50 [Ralph]
... in this kind of format
16:39:00 [tzviya]
ack we
16:39:02 [Ralph]
... and document it as a GitHub issue
16:39:24 [Ralph]
WendyR: this sounds like something that is in the realm of the CG A11y task force
16:39:36 [Ralph]
... we're doing some similar work in the FXL TF, but only for fixed layout
16:39:50 [GeorgeK]
q+
16:39:52 [Ralph]
... we've put together some use cases for the different types of fixed layout
16:39:55 [tzviya]
ack ge
16:40:00 [Ralph]
... it sounds like a fun CG project
16:40:11 [Ralph]
George: having a user story around the index issue I think would be great
16:40:28 [Ralph]
... I would imagine that comments added for a11y would add more detail to the use case
16:40:40 [Ralph]
... no only do you want to get there but you want to get back to where you left off reading
16:40:49 [Ralph]
... I'm not seeing that in most reading systems now
16:41:00 [Ralph]
... how do I go back; breadcrumbs or history
16:41:02 [tzviya]
q+ to mention making these user stories accessible
16:41:09 [avneeshsingh]
q+
16:41:13 [Ralph]
... one use case could spawn more use cases and all usually have an a11y componet
16:41:14 [tzviya]
ack avneeshsingh
16:41:19 [liisamk]
q+
16:41:38 [Ralph]
Avneesh: George is on target; we have to be sure that the use cases work for people with disabilities
16:42:27 [Ralph]
... our thinking is that the Publishing CG is a good place for a broader discussion on prioritizing dpub-aria work
16:42:42 [Ralph]
... @@ doesn't work because of screen reader buffering issues
16:42:54 [tzviya]
ack me
16:42:54 [Zakim]
tzviya, you wanted to mention making these user stories accessible
16:42:54 [Ralph]
... there are technical issues that don't allow us to achieve what we want
16:43:15 [Ralph]
Tzviya: I attended some a11y training that talks about building a11y into the template
16:43:26 [Ralph]
... I can try to incorporate what I learned into writing those templates
16:43:28 [tzviya]
ack liisamk
16:44:06 [Ralph]
Liisa: maybe this opens an opportunity for us; what PRH considers best practice might not be what others consider best practice, even though both are accessible
16:44:27 [Ralph]
... maybe there's an opportunity to share what people think they have solved and what problems they are running into
16:44:51 [GeorgeK]
q+
16:44:53 [Ralph]
... do you push forward with what you think are good practices despite it not always working in all reading systems
16:45:10 [tzviya]
ack ge
16:45:34 [Ralph]
George: thinking of some things I want to see in digital publishing; I could spend a half day filling out templates
16:46:02 [Ralph]
... I wonder if there are already use cases documented that people could review to avoid duplication
16:46:10 [zheng_xu__]
q+
16:46:17 [avneeshsingh]
huge pile of web publications use cases
16:46:23 [tzviya]
ack Zhe
16:46:32 [Ralph]
Zheng: good point
16:46:48 [Ralph]
... we can check out how to group the user stories
16:47:08 [Ralph]
... the CG meeting this week was trying to talk about user stories
16:47:19 [Ralph]
... a next step coudl be to look at how to group them
16:47:38 [Ralph]
... to define user stories in a format more efficiently and reduce duplication
16:47:58 [wendyreid]
Ralph: As I said at the start, I'm glad you're taking this approach
16:48:04 [mateus]
q+
16:48:04 [wolfgang]
q+
16:48:05 [wendyreid]
... what is your dream of how this will ramp up?
16:48:13 [Ralph]
Ralph: what is your dream about how this will ramp up?
16:48:37 [Ralph]
Mateus: my dream is that we have every idea, every problem that publishing is trying to solve with digital publishing technology and standards document in this form
16:48:55 [Ralph]
... so we're really understanding use cases from a very practical perspective
16:49:13 [Ralph]
... one of our challenges is that we know what we'd like to do but we haven't had a shared language to communicate
16:49:34 [Ralph]
... once we have a shared way of documenting use cases it will become clear who can help us evolve them further
16:49:59 [Ralph]
... if we have a user story documented, regardless of what solution(s) come forward, it will help us know who can help us
16:50:15 [Ralph]
... e.g. the A11y TF might be the best place to move a particular use case for discussion
16:50:24 [Ralph]
... at the least it will stimulate conversation, as it did here
16:50:41 [Ralph]
Wolfgang: my dream is to start with the customer
16:51:05 [Ralph]
... we started working with design thinking, taking hours to talk with customers -- what are your needs? what do you wish to get?
16:51:09 [mateus]
+1
16:51:13 [Ralph]
... get more customer/user-centric
16:51:16 [wendyreid]
+1 to wolfgang!!
16:51:17 [tzviya]
+1
16:51:18 [avneeshsingh]
q+
16:51:33 [Ralph]
... our customers don't think in terms of spec and programming; they think in terms of issues
16:51:39 [Ralph]
... we should do our best to cater for them
16:51:50 [Ralph]
... after that we work on finding solutions
16:51:56 [zheng_xu__]
+1
16:51:57 [tzviya]
ack av
16:52:14 [Ralph]
Avneesh: it's fairly good to have user stories and customers there
16:52:24 [wendyreid]
q+
16:52:28 [Ralph]
... but the structure of W3C doesn't involve users so much; we talk about browser engines, developers, ...
16:52:43 [tzviya]
ack wendyreid
16:52:49 [Ralph]
... are we expecting the Publishing CG to have more engagement with users or that the publishers will represent the users?
16:52:56 [Ralph]
WendyR: Avneesh is not wrong
16:53:16 [Ralph]
... I 100% agree
16:53:27 [Ralph]
... we use "user" a lot but almost never involve users in spec writing
16:53:45 [tzviya]
q+ to ask if BG can involve users
16:53:49 [Ralph]
... part of this is that we do not have access to users; we don't have a user advocacy group
16:53:59 [Ralph]
... I'd love to start this
16:54:42 [Ralph]
... I'd love to try, and encourage others to try, to see how much user request information I can filter from my own daily contact with people who read books
16:54:59 [Ralph]
... most platforms have information about what users are asking for and what frustrations they have
16:55:01 [zheng_xu__]
q+
16:55:25 [Ralph]
... a lot of comments we get are specific; "I don't like your login page", others are very general "I don't like this book"
16:55:36 [Ralph]
... I'd love to see how we might share some of that information
16:56:02 [tzviya]
ack tz
16:56:02 [Zakim]
tzviya, you wanted to ask if BG can involve users
16:56:07 [ivan]
q+
16:56:17 [Ralph]
Tzviya: thanks for raising this point, Avneesh
16:56:23 [Ralph]
.. this template is still excellent
16:56:33 [Ralph]
... I'm hoping the BG has more access to users
16:56:44 [Ralph]
... some of the BG and WG participants have closer access to users
16:57:18 [tzviya]
ack zhe
16:57:19 [Ralph]
... I hear from customers that 2FA gets in their way all the time
16:57:27 [Ralph]
... it would be valuable to document that
16:58:00 [Ralph]
Zheng: how we define a story; "as a reader ..." or "as a publisher ..." or "as a content creator ..."
16:58:12 [Ralph]
... the different roles can be expressed in different user stories
16:58:44 [tzviya]
ack ivan
16:58:45 [Ralph]
... if we can define "user" as "who needs a feature", that helps to get things clear
16:59:09 [Ralph]
Ivan: I am a little worried that we will get lots of use cases and to make some manageable recommendation out of that is not an easy task to do
16:59:19 [Ralph]
... many groups have done this in various use cases in the past
16:59:27 [ivan]
-> Web Publications Use Cases and Requirements https://www.w3.org/TR/2019/NOTE-pwp-ucr-20190813/
16:59:44 [Ralph]
... it's complicated to distill from them some tangible directions
17:00:04 [Ralph]
... years ago we attempted to try to find a structure to distill information out of use cases
17:00:30 [Ralph]
... we might be looking for something more elaborate than the use cases in ^^
17:00:56 [Ralph]
... we have to keep in mind how to get a manageable collection of things
17:01:08 [Ralph]
Tzviya: in the ^^ document each use case is very compllicated
17:01:23 [Ralph]
... we can break them down into simpler stories
17:01:36 [Ralph]
[adjourned]
17:01:41 [Ralph]
zakim, end meeting
17:01:41 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Wolfgang, Ralph, Cristina, wendyreid, Tzviya, Avneesh, Zheng, George, Ivan, avneeshsingh, Liisa, GeorgeK, zheng_xu__, mateus, Bill_Kasdorf,
17:01:44 [Zakim]
... dauwhe
17:01:44 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:01:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/14-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
17:01:47 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
17:01:51 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #pbgsc
17:39:46 [Ralph]
rrsagent, bye
17:39:46 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items