14:41:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:41:13 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/01/13-i18n-irc
14:41:25 <addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference
14:41:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:41:31 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:41:31 <trackbot> Date: 13 January 2022
14:41:36 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
14:41:44 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/baf262b7-7551-4c04-96a0-662d85c35505/20220113T150000
14:41:44 <agendabot> clear agenda
14:41:44 <agendabot> agenda+ Agenda Review
14:41:44 <agendabot> agenda+ Action Items
14:41:47 <agendabot> agenda+ Info Share
14:41:49 <agendabot> agenda+ RADAR Review
14:41:51 <agendabot> agenda+ String-Meta
14:41:54 <agendabot> agenda+ Security issues in bidi
14:41:56 <agendabot> agenda+ Radar Assignments
14:41:58 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB?
14:42:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/13-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:46:39 <addison> agenda+ How to order items in a multilingual list
14:53:19 <xfq> xfq has joined #i18n
14:57:50 <addison> present+
14:57:55 <addison> present+ Atsushi
14:58:01 <addison> present+ Erik Nordin
14:59:24 <nordzilla> nordzilla has joined #i18n
15:00:11 <addison> present+ Fuqiao
15:01:23 <addison> present+ Richard
15:02:17 <atsushi> scribe: atsushi
15:04:15 <addison> present+ Bert
15:05:24 <atsushi> zakim, take up agendum 1
15:05:24 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:05:33 <addison> agenda?
15:06:20 <atsushi> richard: web authentication, use gettext from GNU for localization
15:06:21 <addison> agenda+ webauth recharter and gettext
15:06:36 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 2
15:06:37 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:06:45 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
15:07:12 <atsushi> addison: 1094, on ecma-402
15:07:22 <atsushi> ... start that conversation, and working on explainer
15:07:30 <atsushi> ... backoff next week
15:07:45 <atsushi> addison: 1097, no time on this
15:07:58 <atsushi> addison: 1098, on lang-bidi-use-cases
15:08:14 <atsushi> richard: not yet. (first week after off)
15:08:43 <atsushi> addison: 1100, get this shortly
15:09:01 <atsushi> addison: 1101, did and they replied that they are welcome
15:09:06 <atsushi> ... will create items
15:09:12 <addison> action: addison: create naur review item
15:09:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1108 - Create naur review item [on Addison Phillips - due 2022-01-20].
15:09:18 <addison> close action-1101
15:09:18 <trackbot> Closed action-1101.
15:09:45 <atsushi> addison: 1103, the same explainer as ecma-402, not yet done
15:09:52 <JcK> JcK has joined #i18n
15:10:03 <atsushi> addison: 1104
15:10:23 <atsushi> addison: 1106, still need?
15:10:36 <addison> close action-1106
15:10:36 <trackbot> Closed action-1106.
15:10:37 <atsushi> jck: still need
15:10:59 <addison> https://github.com/WICG/handwriting-recognition/issues/1
15:11:01 <JcK> present+ JvK
15:11:08 <atsushi> addison: 1107, did do, and close this
15:11:11 <JcK> present+ JcK
15:11:41 <addison> zxx-x-shape
15:11:45 <atsushi> ... they decided to use zxx
15:11:51 <atsushi> present- JvK
15:12:29 <addison> close action-1107
15:12:29 <trackbot> Closed action-1107.
15:12:34 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 3
15:12:34 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:12:55 <atsushi> addison: welcome back, happy gregorian new yera
15:13:06 <atsushi> ... and welcome new member, Nordin joined yesterday
15:13:25 <addison> s/yera/year/
15:13:45 <atsushi> erik: internationalization team at Mozilla, joined this year with my colleagues
15:14:04 <atsushi> ... one is in trainig of company and not here with me today
15:14:12 <addison> (other new person from Mozilla is Eemeli)
15:14:30 <atsushi> ... internationalized domain, ICU, i18n toolings
15:15:02 <atsushi> ... joining to the WG, involved to message format 2.0
15:15:13 <atsushi> ... interested in DOM internationalization
15:15:33 <atsushi> ... we hope to be more involved and to get world more internationalized
15:16:21 <addison> s/DOM internationalization/DOM localization/
15:17:37 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/documentreview/issues/28
15:17:40 <atsushi> xfq: new status called registry, this needs wide review as well
15:17:49 <atsushi> ... added an issue to documentreview on this
15:18:05 <atsushi> ... we can add some correspondence template into our repository
15:18:18 <atsushi> addison: registration strategy or value?
15:18:35 <atsushi> xfq: basically strategy and documentation
15:18:40 <JcK> Oh, in case that got lost over the holidays, the magic BCP link is https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/bcpNNN
15:19:01 <atsushi> xfq: no published registry document yet
15:19:32 <atsushi> ... we will see whether they will really need review or not
15:19:47 <atsushi> addison: we could need different tag or status?
15:19:57 <atsushi> ... who want to think about these?
15:20:29 <atsushi> richard: inclined to wait until we need to look into
15:20:42 <atsushi> xfq: same for me, and this is just a heads up
15:21:11 <atsushi> addison: chickin and egg
15:21:16 <atsushi> ... wait until one comes
15:21:28 <atsushi> ... for now, at least one in our pipeline?
15:21:44 <atsushi> xfq: webcodecs is creating registry, and coulbe in the pipeline
15:21:52 <atsushi> addison: keep it open
15:22:10 <atsushi> richard: monotype is interested in looking Arabic justification automatically
15:22:18 <atsushi> ... especially on window stretching
15:22:32 <atsushi> ... 6 people together and look into this area
15:22:54 <atsushi> ... should be useful if we can find some solution
15:23:23 <atsushi> ... could be plugged into CSS at some point
15:23:44 <atsushi> ... they also seek to extend from Arabic to others
15:23:56 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 4
15:23:56 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:23:57 <atsushi> addison: so, taking Arabic as one of majors
15:24:52 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
15:25:05 <xfq> s/chickin and egg/chicken and egg/
15:25:07 <atsushi> addison: it might be useful to bring thease into alreq repository once some secured text created
15:25:34 <atsushi> addison: no incoming review request
15:25:38 <atsushi> ... any status update?
15:25:58 <addison> agenda?
15:26:41 <atsushi> richard: a month ago, tried to raise gap-analysis pipeline, on rewritting for testing
15:27:02 <atsushi> ... started raising bugs, and Mozilla is working on these bugs
15:27:09 <atsushi> ... continue to do that
15:27:47 <r12a> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/projects/3
15:27:56 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 10
15:27:57 <Zakim> agendum 10 -- webauth recharter and gettext -- taken up [from addison]
15:28:32 <atsushi> richard: charter states to use gettext for localization facility
15:28:44 <atsushi> ... read gettext, long documentation
15:29:18 <atsushi> addison: not hopeless, but why W3C spec pickes up this localization technology
15:29:35 <atsushi> richard: this is also kind of internationalization technology
15:29:38 <r12a> https://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/gettext.html
15:29:56 <xfq> VC WG charter -> https://w3c.github.io/vc-wg-charter/#ig-other-deliverables
15:30:06 <atsushi> ... wondering how bidi is handled
15:30:12 <r12a> white-space
15:30:12 <r12a> #  translator-comments
15:30:12 <r12a> #. extracted-comments
15:30:14 <r12a> #: reference…
15:30:16 <r12a> #, flag…
15:30:18 <r12a> #| msgid previous-untranslated-string
15:30:20 <r12a> msgid untranslated-string
15:30:22 <r12a> msgstr translated-string
15:30:42 <r12a> eg.
15:30:44 <r12a> #: lib/error.c:116
15:30:44 <r12a> msgid "Unknown system error"
15:30:44 <r12a> msgstr "Error desconegut del sistema"
15:30:47 <atsushi> richard: one line for original as id, one line for translation
15:30:54 <atsushi> ... just a text file
15:31:26 <atsushi> addison: you may want to escape bidi, and make text as human readable
15:31:58 <atsushi> ... but don't remember of escaping
15:32:11 <atsushi> bert: using gettext for some of my software, simple text file
15:32:28 <atsushi> ... don't think any standard on markup nor escape
15:33:06 <atsushi> ... usually tags are not for translation
15:33:27 <atsushi> addison: back to my meta question, whey would W3C points these specific thing
15:33:50 <xfq> https://www.w3.org/TR/mlw-metadata-us-impl/#Using_ITS_2.0_with_GNU_gettext_utilities.2FPO_files
15:33:59 <atsushi> ... why not other internationalization or localization scheme?
15:34:37 <atsushi> xfq: our document has some lines for using GNU gettext
15:35:45 <atsushi> ... gettext is stream comversion
15:36:07 <atsushi> addison: does this WG use it for ones like angle brackets
15:36:27 <atsushi> ... and be careful of bidi controls
15:37:00 <atsushi> richard: gettext uses language code, two char with subtags
15:37:37 <atsushi> addison: Linux systems are using gettext for long time, and original source
15:38:23 <atsushi> richard: several advices on prurals also
15:39:03 <atsushi> addison: any other action?
15:39:08 <addison> agenda?
15:39:09 <atsushi> richard: will make some comments
15:39:50 <xfq> VC WG charter -> https://w3c.github.io/vc-wg-charter/#ig-other-deliverables
15:40:01 <atsushi> example of targets -> https://github.com/w3c/vc-wg-charter/issues/19#issuecomment-994607242
15:40:39 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 9
15:40:39 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- How to order items in a multilingual list -- taken up [from addison]
15:40:58 <r12a> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-discuss/issues/20
15:41:38 <atsushi> richard: this thread is wondering also of direction which has clear guidelines
15:41:51 <atsushi> ... discussing what order list is shown in a page
15:42:11 <atsushi> ... and second point, getting item to the top based on users' preference
15:42:42 <atsushi> ... conclusion could be different when you have long list or not
15:42:58 <atsushi> bert: wikipedia uses order of language code
15:43:12 <atsushi> richard: it is predictable
15:43:30 <atsushi> ... same number of translations to be shown in pages of translation
15:43:49 <atsushi> ... you will get one solid idea between pages on this order
15:44:29 <atsushi> richard: even picking some languages, we need to order lists
15:44:51 <atsushi> addison: randomly ordered list is possible...
15:45:12 <atsushi> richard: any preference?
15:45:30 <atsushi> ... over whole list if there is no preferred language
15:45:32 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/articlelist
15:45:46 <atsushi> addison: it works ok
15:46:07 <atsushi> ... if you are on long list, you need to know which language is in which code
15:46:31 <atsushi> ... when we have completed list of cldr language list, many unknowns
15:46:40 <r12a> https://r12a.github.io/app-charuse/
15:46:43 <atsushi> richard: just typing and finding could work most of time
15:47:14 <atsushi> ... above page has all in English and can filter and jump by typing
15:47:38 <atsushi> richard: starting talking on ways of getting information
15:47:44 <atsushi> ... what order is preferred
15:48:15 <atsushi> addison: my preference is ordered by lang code, and pulling by typing
15:48:37 <atsushi> ... for example, currency selection has the same issue
15:48:59 <atsushi> richard: that is the preference on W3C site redesign
15:49:31 <atsushi> ... I think we should provide customized list, rather than providing ordered list
15:50:09 <atsushi> addison: if the list is large, people could miss the group at the top
15:50:25 <atsushi> bert: found pros/cons for that grouping
15:50:53 <atsushi> richard: if you only have three translation, could be picked up by browser preference
15:51:49 <atsushi> ... I suspect not selecter
15:52:14 <atsushi> ... in our article, like 40 translations, ordered list is better
15:52:41 <atsushi> addison: including English also seems better
15:52:49 <atsushi> ... and also regionaly sorted groups
15:53:47 <atsushi> richard: to find a language quicker, having items at the top from preference could be better
15:54:57 <atsushi> addison: haven't done, keens to test that
15:55:36 <atsushi> ... draw back is people could remember around where item was
15:57:07 <atsushi> richard: number of languages could differ per page
15:57:37 <atsushi> ... if you have 6 languages for a page, you can look without checking selections by scrolling
15:58:51 <atsushi> addison: just to have lists in the same order as language tag, not to cause flame
15:59:36 <atsushi> eric: mozilla is always aware of identifying information than just ordering
16:01:03 <atsushi> addison: language preference is sent to all web server as header
16:01:15 <atsushi> zakim, take up agendum 8
16:01:15 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:01:23 <atsushi> addison: around top, any other?
16:02:10 <Bert> (But need to take into account that the lang pref may be wrong on purpose, precisely because people care about protecting their personal data.)
16:03:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/13-i18n-minutes.html addison