IRC log of apa on 2022-01-12

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16:48:12 [trackbot]: Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference
16:48:12 [trackbot]: Date: 12 January 2022
16:48:17 [janina]: agenda?
16:48:22 [janina]: Chair: Janina
16:48:22 [janina]: agenda+ Agenda Review & Announcements
16:48:22 [janina]: agenda+ Task Force Updates
16:48:22 [janina]: agenda+ FAST Update
16:48:22 [janina]: agenda+ New Charters Review https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22
16:48:25 [janina]: agenda+ A11y Review Comment Tracker https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review
16:48:28 [janina]: agenda+ new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html
16:48:30 [janina]: agenda+ Actions Checkin (Specs) https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/open
16:48:33 [janina]: agenda+ Web XR -- Josh https://github.com/immersive-web/layers/issues/278
16:48:35 [janina]: agenda+ Dangling Spec Review Cleanup: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Category:Spec_Review_Assigned
16:48:38 [janina]: agenda+ Other Business
16:48:41 [janina]: agenda+ be done
16:55:29 [janina]: present+
17:02:04 [Matthew_Atkinson]: Matthew_Atkinson has joined #apa
17:02:09 [Matthew_Atkinson]: present+
17:02:20 [janina]: regrets: Becky_Gibson, Gottfried_Zimmerman
17:03:14 [Fredrik]: Fredrik has joined #apa
17:03:18 [JF]: JF has joined #apa
17:03:30 [JF]: Present+
17:03:32 [Fredrik]: present+
17:04:40 [Matthew_Atkinson]: agenda?
17:04:48 [Fazio]: Fazio has joined #apa
17:04:52 [Fazio]: present+
17:05:01 [Matthew_Atkinson]: scribe: Matthew_Atkinson
17:05:06 [Matthew_Atkinson]: zakim, next item
17:05:06 [Zakim]: agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Announcements -- taken up [from janina]
17:05:31 [Jonny_James]: Jonny_James has joined #apa
17:05:35 [Jonny_James]: present+
17:06:15 [Fazio]: nothing from me/coga
17:06:39 [Matthew_Atkinson]: zakim, next item
17:06:39 [Zakim]: agendum 2 -- Task Force Updates -- taken up [from janina]
17:07:45 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: RQTF: Cautiously proceeding in the direction of exploring automation in CAPTCHA document.
17:08:39 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: Personalization: Still have one blocking issue. Working on technical issues with demonstration extension with Matthew_Atkinson and Lisa. We have permission (pending Lisa's approval) to share the extension with W3C chairs to clear issue 144. Will revisit licencing later.
17:09:10 [Matthew_Atkinson]: ... The current issue is the extension doesn't support data-* (rather aui-*) so Matthew_Atkinson is working on modifying the example content.
17:09:54 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: Pronunciation: Continuing conversation with ARIA, looking at what support we can get into ATs and UA. Good consideration, interest and feedback from ARIA. Gap analysis is being updated.
17:10:31 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: COGA: Fazio?
17:10:46 [Matthew_Atkinson]: Fazio: Looking into the scrollbar issue; will update soon.
17:10:54 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: Suggest you CC the APA list.
17:11:17 [Matthew_Atkinson]: zakim, next item
17:11:17 [Zakim]: agendum 3 -- FAST Update -- taken up [from janina]
17:12:23 [Matthew_Atkinson]: Joshue108: JF joined yesterday's call, glad to have you involved, and we are onboarding him. Looking at intersections of user needs.
17:12:36 [Matthew_Atkinson]: Joshue108: JF will be looking into potential outcomes from a personalization perspective.
17:12:40 [Matthew_Atkinson]: zakim, next item
17:12:40 [Zakim]: agendum 4 -- New Charters Review https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22 -- taken up [from janina]
17:13:32 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: We've been having discussions (list CC'd) with François about Second Screen. Looking at in-band vs out-of-band. JF clarified, and is happy with François' response?
17:13:40 [Matthew_Atkinson]: JF: Confirmed; happy.
17:14:41 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: We can clear this with management. They're aware of what we care about. I thought François was helpful and specific in his responses. This bodes well for the API, which we look forward to reviewing. Our issues haven't been forgotten/overlooked/misunderstood.
17:15:31 [Matthew_Atkinson]: MichaelC: It is now signed off.
17:15:38 [Matthew_Atkinson]: MichaelC: No other new charters.
17:15:40 [Matthew_Atkinson]: zakim, next item
17:15:40 [Zakim]: agendum 5 -- A11y Review Comment Tracker https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review -- taken up [from janina]
17:16:15 [MichaelC]: https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm/issues/23
17:16:46 [MichaelC]: https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm/pull/24/files
17:16:50 [Matthew_Atkinson]: MichaelC: ^ is "Errors when complexity exceeds the capability of the system to render - accessibility implications"
17:17:54 [Joshue108]: present+
17:18:03 [Matthew_Atkinson]: MichaelC: janina: We're concerned with this section: https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm/pull/24/files#diff-d9e5d403a94d2354536b5069fce5fdbcbe931aaa7f4a5157c4a863d00a8445faL724-R730 (Accessibility Considerations)
17:18:09 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: Sounds like everyone is happy with this.
17:18:44 [Matthew_Atkinson]: MichaelC: WebXR Layers API [future agendum]
17:18:45 [Matthew_Atkinson]: zakim, next item
17:18:45 [Zakim]: agendum 6 -- new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html -- taken up [from janina]
17:19:21 [Matthew_Atkinson]: MichaelC: There are two CSS specs—do we want to regroup [planning call agendum]?
17:19:24 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: [agrees]
17:19:26 [Matthew_Atkinson]: zakim, next item
17:19:26 [Zakim]: agendum 6 was just opened, Matthew_Atkinson
17:19:31 [Matthew_Atkinson]: zakim, close this item
17:19:31 [Zakim]: agendum 6 closed
17:19:32 [Matthew_Atkinson]: zakim, next item
17:19:33 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:19:33 [Zakim]: 7. Actions Checkin (Specs) https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/open [from janina]
17:19:33 [Zakim]: agendum 7 -- Actions Checkin (Specs) https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/open -- taken up [from janina]
17:20:13 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: Fredrik completed an action last week...
17:20:26 [Matthew_Atkinson]: Fredrik: Posted my review of Input Events on list.
17:20:56 [Matthew_Atkinson]: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-apa/2022Jan/0004.html
17:21:13 [Matthew_Atkinson]: Fredrik: Happy with it, though it is currently an early draft.
17:21:46 [janina]: close action-2311
17:21:46 [trackbot]: Closed action-2311.
17:22:17 [Matthew_Atkinson]: zakim, next item
17:22:17 [Zakim]: agendum 8 -- Web XR -- Josh https://github.com/immersive-web/layers/issues/278 -- taken up [from janina]
17:22:46 [Matthew_Atkinson]: Joshue108: This relates to the WebXR Layers API and the response we made to the WebXR group.
17:22:49 [Joshue108]: Accessible Platform Architectures (APA) question on WebXR Layers API spec #278
17:22:58 [MichaelC]: https://github.com/immersive-web/layers/issues/278
17:23:21 [MichaelC]: https://github.com/immersive-web/layers/pull/279/files
17:24:01 [Matthew_Atkinson]: Joshue108: Our concerns were around legibility, particularly of text, when the buffers are low resolution. We asked if this would relate to accessible alternative formats such as captions etc.
17:24:39 [Joshue108]: https://github.com/immersive-web/layers/pull/279
17:25:03 [janina]: q?
17:25:11 [Matthew_Atkinson]: Joshue108: We quickly got a response that allowed the WebXR content to be rendered at low resolution, but have the alternative text content layer still rendered at high resolution, so that it is useful for providing accessible alternatives, but still have performance gains from rendering the XR content at low resolution.
17:26:06 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: Concern about use of the word "regular" in the proposed changes. In prevoius group work we have used terms such as "primary content" and "alternative content" or "alternative". This is much better than "regular" or "irregular".
17:27:20 [Matthew_Atkinson]: Joshue108: The gist of the solution was that this is down to performance; rendering XR content at lower resolution for perofrmance, but the layer containing the text can still be rendered at higher resolution.
17:28:27 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: Can we confirm? Of course not intended, but terming some content "regular" has a connotation for other content.
17:28:30 [Fredrik]: q+
17:28:53 [Matthew_Atkinson]: MichaelC: Sounds like it is just referring to the predominant content. If they used "ordinary" content instead of "regular" would we have had an issue with it?
17:29:12 [Matthew_Atkinson]: Joshue108: Agree with MichaelC, but think both of these terms need to be clarified. Don't think there's anything to worry about in terms of legibility of alternative content.
17:29:26 [janina]: q?
17:29:29 [janina]: ack fre
17:30:21 [Matthew_Atkinson]: Fredrik: I get the same feeling as janina with "regular" and "irregular", but "primary" and "alternative" is a very nice way of moving around it.
17:30:32 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: I'm happy to call this a nit.
17:30:57 [Matthew_Atkinson]: s/In prevoius group work/In prevoius group work, such as the MAUR,/
17:31:29 [Fredrik]: q+
17:31:32 [Matthew_Atkinson]: MichaelC: Suggest we leave a comment on the thread to seek clarification on these terms, but not re-open the issue.
17:31:41 [Matthew_Atkinson]: Joshue108: [agrees; will do]
17:31:55 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: We can make it clear we don't think anything negative was intended.
17:32:14 [Matthew_Atkinson]: Fredrik: We could ask if there is a general language section within W3C to take care of discussions like this?
17:32:35 [Matthew_Atkinson]: Fredrik: These sorts of discussoins come up; we could address in one place.
17:32:46 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: Has this reached the process or style document?
17:33:02 [Matthew_Atkinson]: MichaelC: Don't think we have anything at that level of detail.
17:33:29 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: These kinds of issues do come up (c.f. git branch names).
17:33:37 [MichaelC]: https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/
17:33:56 [MichaelC]: https://www.w3.org/community/pwe/
17:34:09 [Fredrik]: q-
17:34:15 [Matthew_Atkinson]: MichaelC: This may be related to the positive work environemnt TF and CG [link above]
17:35:52 [Matthew_Atkinson]: Fazio: I did bring up the CAPTCHA topic in COGA and we are going to look into it.
17:36:36 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: We have updates (around the notion of "automated") in the pipeline.
17:36:46 [Matthew_Atkinson]: zakim, next item
17:36:46 [Zakim]: agendum 9 -- Dangling Spec Review Cleanup: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Category:Spec_Review_Assigned -- taken up [from janina]
17:37:09 [MichaelC]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/WebVTT:_The_Web_Video_Text_Tracks_Format
17:38:03 [Matthew_Atkinson]: MichaelC: We were going to run a CfC in 2019; not sure if we did. The spec doesn't seem to be actively maintained. Suggest we close this and await updates.
17:38:53 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: We will be contacting Nigel from RQTF about the SAUR, which will relate to WebVTT, not directly, but maybe the next iteration of WebVTT could point to the SAUR.
17:40:01 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: We are working with Timed Text to asses whether SAUR should be progressed to being a W3C Statement.
17:40:30 [Fazio]: I divery true
17:40:30 [Matthew_Atkinson]: ... The reasons for, besides it being research-based and extensive, is that we uncovered that if you allow audio and video to go out-of-synch, everyone has a disability.
17:40:41 [Fazio]: very true
17:41:06 [Matthew_Atkinson]: ... I.e. good synchronisation is essential to some, but useful for all.
17:41:36 [Matthew_Atkinson]: ... This work was well-recieved (by Nigel; Timed Text et al) at TPAC 2020.
17:42:19 [MichaelC]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Web_Authentication:_An_API_for_accessing_Public_Key_Credentials_-_Level_3
17:42:27 [MichaelC]: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-apa/2021May/0048.html
17:42:30 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: We want to advance CAPTCHA to a Statement, but suggest we start with SAUR as it should be more straightforward.
17:43:56 [Matthew_Atkinson]: Fredrik: IIRC the web auth API was too low-level. Have updated wording suggestion for the Accessibility Considerations section [in the message linked above]
17:44:30 [MichaelC]: [[
17:44:37 [MichaelC]: "User verification-capable authenticators, whether roaming or platform, should offer users more than one user verification method (e.g., both fingerprint sensing and PIN entry). This allows for fallback to other user verification means if the selected one is not working for some reason. Note that in the case of roaming authenticators, the authenticator and platform might work together to provide a user verification method such as PIN entry [FIDO-CTAP].
17:44:40 [MichaelC]: Relying Parties, at registration time, SHOULD provide affordances for users to complete future authorization gestures correctly. This could involve naming the authenticator, choosing a picture to associate with the device, or entering freeform text instructions (e.g., as a reminder-to-self).
17:44:44 [MichaelC]: Ceremonies relying on timing, e.g., a registration ceremony (see timeout) or an authentication ceremony (see timeout), ought to follow the Enough Time guideline of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. If a client platform determines that a Relying Party-supplied timeout does not appropriately adhere to the latter guidelines, then the client platform MAY adjust the timeout accordingly.
17:44:49 [MichaelC]: It is also advised that any user-facing aspect of an authorization process follow the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines to support as wide a range of users and use cases as possible."
17:44:52 [MichaelC]: ]]
17:45:02 [Matthew_Atkinson]: Fredrik: I still thing these wording changes should be submitted as a comment. Open to comments though!
17:46:09 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: +1 to referencing WCAG
17:47:04 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: Please file the issue Fredrik [MichaelC notes there is no need for a CfC as this is non-normative]
17:47:11 [Matthew_Atkinson]: q+
17:47:42 [janina]: ack matt
17:48:22 [Matthew_Atkinson]: Matthew_Atkinson: Is there anything we should make this group aware of regarding proposed WCAG 2.2 SCs?
17:48:33 [Matthew_Atkinson]: Matthew_Atkinson: +1 to referencing WCAG
17:49:00 [MichaelC]: https://w3c.github.io/wcag/guidelines/22/#accessible-authentication
17:49:20 [Fazio]: LOL Janina you're funny
17:49:21 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: We discussed that there is some muddling between authentication (I'm not a robot) and authorization (accessing things).
17:49:37 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: CAPTCHA isn't about login
17:49:50 [Fazio]: that was a black hole too
17:50:07 [Fazio]: cognitive function test ran into problems
17:50:07 [Matthew_Atkinson]: MichaelC: This doesn't seem to overlap with the proposed WCAG 2.2 SC.
17:50:43 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: We did share feedback on the muddling with WCAG.
17:51:26 [MichaelC]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Language_Tags_and_Locale_Identifiers_for_the_World_Wide_Web
17:51:57 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: We wouldn't respect ASL to be represented in a font.
17:52:27 [Matthew_Atkinson]: MichaelC: Finger spellings could be, though. [janina agrees; wonder if different languages are relevant there; will follow up RQTF]
17:53:21 [Matthew_Atkinson]: MichaelC: Do language tags apply to media other than text? E.g. a recording? That may well have sign language in it.
17:54:47 [Matthew_Atkinson]: MichaelC: janina: There are recognized sign languages, and gestures.
17:55:07 [Matthew_Atkinson]: MichaelC: We won't be touching gestures, but may want to indicate that "if you use sign language, this will be accessible to you"
17:55:12 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: And locale of sign language.
17:55:19 [Matthew_Atkinson]: MichaelC: Sounds like that use case is not met; refer to RQTF?
17:55:21 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: yes
17:55:59 [MichaelC]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Web_of_Things_(WoT)_Profile
17:56:22 [Matthew_Atkinson]: janina: Joshue108 can we review with you next week? [will follow up with Joshue108 offline]
17:56:39 [Matthew_Atkinson]: zakim, next item
17:56:39 [Zakim]: agendum 10 -- Other Business -- taken up [from janina]
17:57:41 [Matthew_Atkinson]: RRSAgent, make minutes
17:57:41 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/12-apa-minutes.html Matthew_Atkinson