12:48:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot
12:48:30 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/12/22-wot-irc
12:48:39 <kaz> meeting: WoT-IG/WG
12:48:43 <kaz> chair: Sebastian
12:48:47 <kaz> regrets+ McCool
13:01:41 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #wot
13:02:40 <ktoumura> ktoumura has joined #wot
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13:03:00 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Daniel_Peintner, Ege_Korkan, Kunihiko_Toumura, Michael_Koster, Tetsushi_Matsuda
13:03:10 <kaz> present+ Michael_Lagally
13:03:30 <mlagally> mlagally has joined #wot
13:04:01 <sebastiankaebisch> sebastiankaebisch has joined #wot
13:04:23 <kaz> present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch, Tomoaki_Mizushima
13:04:49 <Ege> Ege has joined #wot
13:05:08 <kaz> scribenick: mlagally
13:05:13 <kaz> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Main_WoT_WebConf#22_December_2021
13:05:14 <cris> cris has joined #wot
13:05:31 <kaz> present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi
13:05:34 <mlagally> sk: no guests today
13:05:39 <kaz> zakim, who is on the call?
13:05:39 <Zakim> Present: Kaz_Ashimura, Daniel_Peintner, Ege_Korkan, Kunihiko_Toumura, Michael_Koster, Tetsushi_Matsuda, Michael_Lagally, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Tomoaki_Mizushima, Cristiano_Aguzzi
13:05:49 <kaz> i/no guests/topic: Guests/
13:05:49 <mlagally> ... McCooll aready on vacation
13:05:56 <kaz> s/Guests/Preliminary/
13:06:05 <mlagally> .. some news about rechartering, publication plans
13:06:22 <mlagally> ... one resolution planned on use cases an requirements
13:06:28 <kaz> s/Preliminary/Agenda/
13:06:30 <mlagally> ... TD 1.1 2nd WD release
13:06:51 <matsuda> matsuda has joined #wot
13:06:52 <mlagally> ... will review feedback that was provided in the last couple of weeks
13:07:05 <mlagally> ... depending on the discussion we will be able to do a resolution
13:07:23 <mlagally> ... will spend most time on publication topic
13:07:34 <mlagally> topic: housekeeping
13:07:42 <mlagally> ... minutesof the last call
13:08:16 <kaz> s/... minutesof/sk: minutes of/
13:08:31 <kaz> i|minutes|-> https://www.w3.org/2021/12/15-wot-minutes.html Dec-15|
13:08:46 <mlagally> ... Sebastian walks through the minutes)
13:09:11 <mlagally> s/Seb/(Seb/
13:11:33 <mlagally> ... W3C notes that also use assertion terms
13:11:40 <mlagally> kaz: will check with PLH
13:11:57 <mlagally> sk: in my experience there are many W3C documents who do that
13:12:00 <mlagally> Kaz: not many
13:12:06 <mlagally> sk: DID?
13:12:22 <mlagally> kaz: That's a registry note, it is different. Will talk with PLH
13:12:38 <mlagally> ... W3M approved charter exptension
13:12:51 <mlagally> ... AC review also started
13:13:11 <mlagally> ... please work with your AC rep, so we can continue the plan
13:13:23 <mlagally> kaz: to be precise, it was not approved yet, will be discussed today
13:13:46 <kaz> s/yet/at that time (=last Wed)/
13:13:55 <kaz> s/today/today as our agenda item later/
13:16:23 <mlagally> ... co chair for CG group
13:16:59 <mlagally> kaz: let's talk about the details later
13:17:16 <kaz> s/later/later as today's agenda items/
13:17:43 <mlagally> sk: any comments? objections?
13:17:45 <mlagally> - none
13:17:51 <mlagally> ... please publish
13:18:03 <mlagally> topic: updates
13:18:04 <kaz> s/... p/sk: p/
13:18:12 <mlagally> ... no editor's call yesterday
13:18:36 <kaz> i/... no/sk: no/
13:18:44 <kaz> i/no edi/subtopic: Editors call/
13:18:52 <kaz> subtopic: Architecture call
13:19:20 <mlagally> ... new time slots?
13:19:33 <kaz> i|new|-> https://doodle.com/poll/ht5q6rbzs7xcbtna?utm_source=poll&utm_medium=link doodle for Architecture|
13:19:52 <kaz> i|new|-> https://doodle.com/poll/ce9gh5zkqg6miiya?utm_source=poll&utm_medium=link doodle for Profile|
13:20:02 <kaz> s/... new/sk: new/
13:20:18 <mlagally> ml: if you and McCool can find a new slot for the chair's call, it would be possible
13:20:47 <mlagally> ... please be careful, to not double book participants to profile and architecture
13:20:53 <kaz> s/possible/possible to use the current Chairs' call slot/
13:20:55 <mlagally> ml: yes
13:21:02 <kaz> s/... p/sk: p/
13:21:02 <mlagally> topic: japanese CG
13:21:11 <kaz> s/topic:/subtopic:/
13:21:18 <mlagally> mizu: 21 people discussed the CG and TF activities today
13:21:35 <kaz> i|21|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-jp-cg/blob/main/Event/20211222_1st_Main_Meeting/minutes.md Draft minutes from the kick-off event|
13:21:42 <mlagally> ... next meeting is planned for Jan 28th next year
13:21:51 <mlagally> sk: is there a list of participants
13:22:09 <mlagally> kaz: the family names are listed there
13:22:21 <mlagally> mizu: in Japanese only
13:22:27 <mlagally> sk: very cool
13:22:45 <mlagally> ml: congratulations, this is very useful
13:23:07 <mlagally> sk: perhaps we should do this also in Germany, let's talk about this, Michael Lagally
13:23:29 <kaz> subtopic: Smart cities
13:23:32 <mlagally> kaz: Smart cities ...
13:23:38 <kaz> kaz: talking with Alan about the next steps plan
13:23:56 <mlagally> topic: rechartering, charter extension
13:24:04 <mlagally> IG rechartering is in AC review
13:24:10 <kaz> s/kaz: Smart cities .../scribenick: kaz/
13:24:15 <mlagally> s/IG/sk: IG/
13:24:23 <kaz> i/IG/scribenick: mlagally/
13:24:38 <mlagally> ... we have a 3 months extension, this will get further extended when we have the AC review done
13:24:46 <mlagally> ... please ping your AC rep to vote
13:24:59 <mlagally> .. so we get all numbers for the rechartering
13:25:16 <mlagally> kaz: so far we have 9 supports, we need 20
13:25:45 <mlagally> sk: WG charter extension, not discussed yet in W3M
13:25:59 <mlagally> kaz: we still have 1 month, will this be discussed today
13:26:14 <mlagally> sk: We need to think about a new charter after the current one
13:26:28 <kaz> s/will this/expecting this will/
13:26:33 <mlagally> ... there's an issue to collect topics, mainly WoT 2.0
13:26:39 <sebastian> https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/978
13:27:34 <kaz> s/https/-> https/
13:27:45 <kaz> s/978/Issue 978 to collect topics/
13:28:30 <mlagally> s/an issue/issue 978/
13:28:45 <mlagally> :-)
13:28:46 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
13:28:50 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:28:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/22-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:29:34 <mlagally> topic: Asynchronous review process
13:29:46 <mlagally> sk: this should be discussed in the TFs
13:29:58 <mlagally> kaz: needs more discussion
13:30:07 <kaz> i|this|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1005 PR 1005|
13:30:36 <mlagally> sk: in TD we have a process (for editorial fixes)
13:30:47 <mlagally> kaz: need more discussion in TFs
13:31:10 <kaz> topic: Publications
13:31:13 <mlagally> sk: we have two documents up for publicaion
13:31:23 <kaz> subtopic: Use Cases
13:33:25 <mlagally> ... the picture from my use case is only available behind a link, should be embedded
13:33:43 <mlagally> ml: I will fix as an editorial update, sorry for the oversight
13:33:52 <kaz> i|the pic|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-usecases/ Use Cases and Requirements document|
13:34:01 <kaz> s/... the pic/sk: the pic/
13:34:47 <kaz> q+
13:35:08 <mlagally> sk: what does the group think, is everyone ok to do a resolution to publish this document as a new version
13:35:39 <mlagally> ml: including some editorial fixes
13:36:06 <mlagally> kaz: we mentioned to have another week of review, but if we can wrap it up today, that's also fine
13:36:56 <mlagally> sk: taking the policy into account we should wait for another week
13:37:45 <mlagally> ml: that's fine, let's give members time to review during the Christmas break and decide in the first main call in January
13:37:54 <mlagally> sk: Jan 12th will be the next one
13:37:59 <mlagally> ml: sounds good
13:38:14 <mlagally> topic: new WD of TD 1.1
13:38:23 <kaz> s/topic:/subtopic:/
13:38:28 <mlagally> sk: we published the last one in June
13:38:37 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:38:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/22-wot-minutes.html kaz
13:39:07 <mlagally> ... proposal is to bring the version we see here to the public
13:39:20 <mlagally> ... there were extensive review comments from Ben Francis
13:39:42 <mlagally> .. he spent a lot of time on review and provided a lot of background
13:40:13 <mlagally> ... many of them are just typo fixes, Ben as a native speaker was fixing a lot of spelling errors
13:40:26 <mlagally> ... so we have a very good document that can be read quite well
13:41:26 <mlagally> ... we have a lot of editorial issues, Daniel spent some time to fix them
13:41:51 <mlagally> ... also mistakes and improvements, e.g. for the abstract
13:42:04 <mlagally> s/also/also fixes for/
13:42:25 <mlagally> ... we also explain what we mean by backwards compatibility, small textual improvements
13:42:53 <mlagally> ... Michael Lagally had commented that there are some changes that have impact on assertions
13:43:11 <mlagally> ... these are separated into individual PRs
13:43:54 <mlagally> ... As an example in issue #1339 there's an explanation about backwards compatibility with 1.0 compliant implementations
13:44:32 <mlagally> ... this has impact on old assertions, so we can also cover old implementations
13:45:27 <mlagally> .. We had issue #1340 (manifest definition), which now points to a software implementation
13:45:43 <mlagally> ... Ben mentioned that this manifest is a W3C document proposal
13:46:15 <mlagally> ... proposal is that the manifest points to a application manifest
13:46:33 <mlagally> ... this has an impact, because it makes the manifest normative, would change the assertion
13:47:11 <mlagally> ... there was a last one about introduction of the scheme element in expected response
13:47:34 <mlagally> ... this PR adds the scheme for the expected response
13:47:45 <dezell2> dezell2 has joined #wot
13:47:45 <mlagally> ... discussion was that it is needed for the profile
13:47:52 <dezell2> present+ David_Ezell
13:48:10 <mlagally> ... there are now also operation types that query actions, we also need to describe the query messages
13:48:46 <mlagally> We see 2 parts of PRs, one part is editorial, grammar fixes
13:48:56 <mlagally> ... others have impact on some assertions
13:49:16 <mlagally> ... mlagally mentioned that many are quite new and we need more time to review
13:49:32 <mlagally> ... these PRs are providing fixes for some old issues
13:49:39 <kaz> present+ Fady_Salama
13:50:12 <mlagally> ... we have different options: merge editorials and keep new assertions out
13:50:29 <kaz> q?
13:50:33 <kaz> ack k
13:50:58 <Ege> q+
13:50:59 <mlagally> ... give more time to the group for review and make the resolution similar to the use case document in the beginning of January
13:51:02 <kaz> q+
13:51:05 <kaz> ack e
13:51:30 <mlagally> ege: I think we should merge these editorial PRs even now and then others might be reviewed
13:51:42 <cris> q+
13:51:52 <mlagally> ... there was an agreement already - unless these PRs are against the agreements we should merge
13:52:07 <mlagally> ... we have to publish it definitley before the February test fest
13:52:21 <kaz> s/definitley/definitely/
13:52:24 <mlagally> ... it won't matter, since most people won't be working during Christmas time
13:52:42 <mlagally> Kaz: I tend to go for the second option and look into the updates in more details
13:52:52 <mlagally> ... check the results during the next TD call
13:53:10 <dape> q+
13:53:19 <mlagally> ... You sent me an issue about the TD 1.1 context file, I would like to check the details of this one as well
13:53:24 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1343 Issue 1343
13:53:33 <kaz> ack k
13:53:36 <mlagally> ... and decide if it should be included in the 2nd WD
13:53:55 <mlagally> sk: The namespace is already here, this should have no impact
13:54:20 <mlagally> kaz: if we want to update the context file for the next publication, we have to be careful
13:54:22 <mlagally> q+
13:54:53 <mlagally> kaz: if we can wait to install the context file and publish the WD separately it is fine, but I want to confirm our direction
13:55:19 <kaz> ack cr
13:55:24 <mlagally> ... my preference is to install the file after some discussion and publish the document in January as the use cases document
13:55:59 <mlagally> chritiano: I still have a PR, this is minor, I fixed a context URL about the reference to the object schema
13:56:17 <kaz> s/chritiano:/cristiano:/
13:56:22 <kaz> ack d
13:56:29 <mlagally> s/chritiano/cristiano/
13:57:07 <mlagally> dape: I suggest we merge the editorial fixes and people want to read the document, so I would like to merge them to have an improved document
13:57:22 <mlagally> ... no strong opinion on the publication time
13:57:36 <mlagally> ... we should set a deadline to provide feedback
13:57:46 <kaz> q?
13:57:49 <kaz> ack ml
13:58:26 <kaz> s/Issue 1343/Issue 1343 - Dereference 1.1 context file via new TD 1.1 IRI|
13:58:37 <kaz> ml: speaking for the Architecture TF
13:58:44 <kaz> ... there are several carried over issues
13:58:57 <mlagally> ml: speaking for the architecture group, we have a couple of normative requirements, where we jointly agreed to carry over
13:59:13 <kaz> s/... there are several carried over issues//
13:59:23 <kaz> s/ml: speaking for the Architecture TF//
14:00:55 <kaz> ml: so would like double check the updates, and possibly there would be some normative changes as well
14:01:18 <kaz> ... therefore would have some more reviews till Jan 12
14:01:32 <kaz> sk: are your talking about the TD spec or the Architecture spec?
14:01:54 <kaz> ... TD spec itself was already fixed for the publication 2 weeks ago basically
14:02:12 <kaz> ml: we have to make sure those two specs are consistent with each other
14:02:19 <kaz> sk: that's true
14:03:01 <kaz> ... but the proposed updated WD was fixed 2 weeks ago (except the recently proposed editorial changes)
14:03:10 <kaz> ml: ok
14:03:22 <kaz> ... but there are many PRs recently made
14:03:31 <kaz> sk: right
14:03:48 <kaz> ... but those new PRs are based on the review results
14:04:29 <kaz> ml: maybe it would be better to clarify those issues marked as "2nd WD"
14:04:29 <kaz> q?
14:04:33 <kaz> q+
14:04:54 <kaz> sk: those PRs are based on the review results
14:05:01 <kaz> s/issues marked/PRs marked/
14:06:17 <kaz> ml: are you planning to merge those PRs before the publication of the updated WD?
14:06:20 <kaz> sk: yeah
14:07:12 <kaz> ... note there are some more PRs on event consumer but have not been reviewed yet
14:07:33 <Ege> q+
14:07:36 <kaz> ml: speaking for Oracle, that topic is critical
14:08:11 <kaz> ... so would not go for making resolution for publication today
14:08:46 <kaz> sk: note that the possible resolution for publishing an updated WD is about the draft fixed 2 weeks ago itself
14:08:51 <dape> q+
14:09:06 <kaz> ml: don't think the draft is stable enough...
14:09:19 <kaz> sk: what do you mean? due to the editorial changes?
14:09:57 <kaz> ... would it be OK to ask people for some more review and finalize the draft in Jan?
14:10:01 <kaz> q?
14:10:14 <kaz> ml: make sense to review all the PRs listed here
14:10:40 <kaz> sk: ok
14:11:02 <kaz> ... let's postpone the discussion till the next TD call on Jan 12
14:11:59 <kaz> ... a possible option is simply publish the updated WD as is without merging the recent PRs
14:12:08 <kaz> ml: that would not be a good idea
14:13:33 <kaz> q?
14:13:45 <kaz> dp: there are a lot PRs
14:14:01 <kaz> ... but some of them, e.g., my one is quite minor
14:14:30 <kaz> ... would say if two people can agree to merge, editorial PRs could be merged
14:14:48 <cris> +1
14:14:51 <kaz> ... putting all the PRs into the same bucket would not be a good approach
14:14:57 <kaz> s/... pu/dp: pu/
14:15:16 <dape> ack dape
14:15:33 <kaz> ml: basically, that's correct but some of the PRs created very late
14:15:43 <kaz> ... I've not reviewed them yet
14:16:36 <kaz> sk: btw, regarding the event handling proposal, it came very late
14:16:45 <kaz> ml: the proposal was made last week
14:16:54 <kaz> ... I explained the issues during the TD call
14:17:14 <kaz> ... and generated concrete proposal based on the discussion
14:17:51 <kaz> sk: my question is if we need to include this proposal for the 2nd WD
14:18:10 <kaz> ml: we need to include this proposal at least before the next Plugfest
14:18:28 <kaz> sk: in that case, we can handle it separately from the 2nd WD itself
14:18:56 <kaz> q?
14:20:07 <kaz> kaz: my suggestion is (1) @@@
14:20:15 <kaz> ek: there is some confusion
14:20:33 <kaz> ... what we'll do in Feb is not Plugfest but Testfest
14:20:42 <mlagally> ege: there's some confusion about the test fest - we test out existing features, not new features
14:20:51 <kaz> ... so would avoid feature changes
14:20:56 <mlagally> .. this is not the goal of what we want to do in february
14:21:01 <kaz> s/... so would avoid feature changes//
14:21:19 <kaz> s/ek: there is some confusion//
14:21:27 <kaz> s/... what we'll do in Feb is not Plugfest but Testfest//
14:21:27 <kaz> ack k
14:21:28 <kaz> ack e
14:21:30 <mlagally> ... this is not against the proposal, no content related content
14:21:40 <mlagally> ... why does it come after a feature freeze
14:23:09 <Fady> Fady has joined #wot
14:23:37 <mlagally> ml: we discussed the issue in the TD call before the feature freeze
14:23:51 <mlagally> ege: you can try out in a plug fest
14:24:07 <mlagally> ml: suggest to do a combined test fest / plug fest
14:24:15 <kaz> s/@@@/discuss all the recent PRs for TD listed here during the next TD call on Jan. 12, (2) see which PRs to be included in the 2nd WD, (3) how to run the next Plugfest (based on which draft) and (4) update our publication schedule and the testing schedule based on that./
14:24:30 <kaz> q+
14:24:30 <mlagally> ege: we have a certain amount of time during the plug fest
14:25:02 <mlagally> ... we would go into bigger trouble, it might be a goud idea to have plug fest before the test fest
14:25:09 <mlagally> ml: I think that is a good idea
14:25:23 <kaz> s/goud/good/
14:25:26 <mlagally> sk: We just talk about doing a WD publication
14:25:58 <mlagally> ... we can cover additional topics, if they are implementable, in the CR
14:30:00 <mlagally> kaz: I object to that direction, and even though they are only editorial, we have to compare Ben Francis' comments with the PRs.
14:30:32 <mlagally> ... we should have the event discussion after the publication and need to review the event proposal
14:31:08 <mlagally> ... it would not be fair to the people who are already on vacation to accept MRs without giving them time for review
14:31:25 <mlagally> sk: I don't understand why we have these concerns on the WD
14:31:49 <mlagally> kaz: we are already 30 mins overtime
14:32:16 <mlagally> sk: there are several editorial ones, can we come over them
14:32:42 <mlagally> kaz: as I mentioned on the chairs call, I asked you to skim through these in the call
14:33:04 <mlagally> ... we already failed doing a resolution here, let's wait for the next TD call
14:33:40 <mlagally> sk: I'm ok with this, let's continue the discussion in the next TD call, please let'S know of you completely disagree with PRs
14:34:02 <mlagally> ... we have not discussed if this document is the basis of the test fest
14:35:11 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/charters/wg-2021-extension-plan.md current plan for publications
14:35:11 <mlagally> ... there are other issues in github that need further work
14:35:43 <mlagally> kaz: please add a lable. We may need to update the schedule of the publication, need to update it every week and keep the progress
14:35:50 <kaz> s|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/charters/wg-2021-extension-plan.md current plan for publications||
14:35:51 <mlagally> sk: is everyone happy with that
14:35:58 <kaz> i|is ev|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/charters/wg-2021-extension-plan.md current plan for publications|
14:36:08 <kaz> s/that/that?/
14:36:10 <mlagally> ... seems we have an agreement
14:36:21 <kaz> i/seems/(no complaints)/
14:36:28 <kaz> s/... s/sk: s/
14:36:40 <mlagally> ... it is good to have discussions on different aspects, hope we have a better understanding of issues and PRs
14:36:49 <mlagally> ... we have a big overtime, sorry for this
14:36:57 <kaz> q?
14:36:59 <kaz> ack k
14:37:15 <mlagally> ... Merry Christmas and a happy new year, we will see us in January
14:37:20 <cris> marry xmas and happy new year to everybody!! :)
14:37:26 <kaz> [adjourned]
14:37:30 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:37:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/22-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:42:55 <kaz> i/so would like/scribenick: kaz/
14:43:11 <kaz> i/there's some confusion/scribenick: mlagally/
14:43:14 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:43:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/22-wot-minutes.html kaz