16:42:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #silver-conf
16:42:53 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/12/16-silver-conf-irc
16:42:57 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #silver-conf
16:43:08 <janina> Meeting: Silver Conformance Options Subgroup
16:43:14 <janina> Date: 16 Dec 2021
16:43:20 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
16:43:24 <janina> agenda?
16:43:29 <janina> queue:
16:43:33 <janina> Agenda+ Agenda Review & Administrative Items
16:43:33 <janina> agenda+ Issue 450 Candidate Response https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/450
16:43:36 <janina> agenda+ Conformance and Compliance Glossary Definition Followup https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Current_Glossary_Candidates
16:43:39 <janina> agenda+ Deliverables Planning for 2022 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Deliverables
16:43:42 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
16:43:45 <janina> agenda+ Be Done
16:46:21 <janina> present+
16:46:32 <janina> zakim, who's here?
16:46:32 <Zakim> Present: janina
16:46:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, jeanne, janina, MichaelC, Rachael, trackbot
16:47:48 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
16:47:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/16-silver-conf-minutes.html janina
16:58:48 <JF> JF has joined #silver-conf
16:58:52 <JF> agenda?
16:59:05 <JF> Present+
16:59:59 <ToddL> ToddL has joined #silver-conf
17:00:19 <Wilco> Wilco has joined #silver-conf
17:01:17 <PeterKorn> PeterKorn has joined #silver-conf
17:01:36 <PeterKorn> present+
17:01:42 <shadi> shadi has joined #silver-conf
17:02:15 <shadi> present+
17:02:29 <Azlan> Azlan has joined #silver-conf
17:02:42 <Azlan> present+
17:03:53 <ToddL> present+
17:06:20 <janina> present+
17:06:24 <jeanne> present+
17:06:37 <Wilco> scribe: Wilco
17:07:11 <Wilco> zakim, take up next
17:07:11 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Administrative Items -- taken up [from janina]
17:07:20 <Susi_Pallero> Susi_Pallero has joined #silver-conf
17:07:47 <Wilco> Janina: Filing an issue on one of the issues assigned to us.
17:08:06 <Wilco> ... Wanted to get a sense of if we're ready to advance it.
17:08:32 <Wilco> ... Looking at issue 450 our distinction may matter.
17:08:32 <GreggVan> GreggVan has joined #silver-conf
17:08:38 <GreggVan> present+
17:09:01 <Wilco> ... Again, this is our last meeting of the year. Next meeting is January 6th.
17:09:28 <Wilco> zakim, take up next
17:09:29 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Issue 450 Candidate Response https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/450 -- taken up [from janina]
17:10:04 <Wilco> Janina: Issue 450 was assigned to us. There is more than one topic. I have a proposed comment at the end.
17:10:09 <Susi_Pallero> present+
17:11:10 <GreggVan> q+
17:12:03 <janina> q+
17:12:09 <janina> ack gr
17:12:12 <Wilco> Gregg: Bullet 2 is particularly interesting. As long as it's user contributed, and they're contributing it freely, that's one category.
17:12:42 <Wilco> ... When you're paying someone. You pay for a movie you put on a site. That's a contractual relationship where you can say I'll pay for the movie but it needs captions.
17:13:03 <Wilco> ... Otherwise you get into a slippery slope of always paying a third party.
17:13:12 <PeterKorn> q+
17:14:04 <Wilco> Janina: The response don't cover everything. I think we're not going to want to get involved of which kind of content needs which level in the standard.
17:14:10 <JF> Q+ to note Gregg's observation of paid-for content
17:14:27 <Wilco> ... Free of paid is interesting, but even that's possibly outside a technical standard. Leans more towards compliance.
17:14:39 <Wilco> ... The response is intentionally brief and focused on user generated.
17:14:46 <janina> q?
17:15:06 <Wilco> Gregg: Are we reviewing just the response, or 6.2 from the draft.
17:15:47 <Wilco> Janina: 6.2 is from the draft. We may update 6.2 on this call. It came out of this group.
17:15:55 <janina> q?
17:15:58 <janina> ack ja
17:16:41 <Wilco> peter: Minor tweak is to be more clear on the particular request. Respond to the second bullet, or something.
17:17:03 <PeterKorn> q-
17:17:24 <janina> ack jf
17:17:24 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to note Gregg's observation of paid-for content
17:17:48 <Wilco> JF: Gregg's point, using paid for content as a dividing marker is interesting. Don't want to lose that idea.
17:18:10 <Wilco> Janina: Will try to pick it up.
17:18:28 <janina> q?
17:18:32 <GreggVan> q+    "For content that is contracted --  your first bullet -- we are still in active discussion.  For the second bullet ..."
17:19:21 <Wilco> Peter: I would not change their word. They didn't use the word contracted.
17:19:33 <Wilco> ... Or just say "your second bullet" and be done with it.
17:19:40 <Wilco> Janina: I'd rather point to what we addressed.
17:20:08 <jeanne> DRAFT RESPONSE: The updated WCAG 3 Working Draft just published contains Sec.
17:20:08 <jeanne> 6.2: User Generated Content which
17:20:08 <jeanne> responds to your second bullet in your comment. We solicit and welcome your
17:20:08 <jeanne> response to this first iteration of proposed conformance criteria relating to
17:20:08 <jeanne> user generated content even as we continue to bring additional third party
17:20:08 <jeanne> guidance into future WCAG 3 Working Drafts.
17:20:08 <jeanne> We are still in active discussion on your first bullet.
17:20:13 <Wilco> Janina: Any objections?
17:20:20 <JF> +1
17:20:26 <Wilco> Jeanne: I'll mark it ready for survey
17:20:29 <Wilco> zakim, take up next
17:20:29 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Conformance and Compliance Glossary Definition Followup https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Current_Glossary_Candidates -- taken up [from janina]
17:20:57 <GreggVan> +1 to Peters comment that we need to be careful to not put words into the mouths of commenters when we respond.
17:21:01 <Wilco> Janina: Wonder if we think it's ready for the Friday call.
17:21:15 <janina> q?
17:22:05 <janina> q?
17:22:05 <Wilco> Peter: Absent more that makes use of these terms, throwing just glossary definitions may not be productive.
17:22:11 <janina> q+
17:22:20 <GreggVan> q+
17:22:35 <Wilco> Janina: I see it as a bit of chicken/egg. We'll get there fast. We're already there with our user generated response.
17:23:25 <Wilco> .. Do we try in WCAG 3 to slice and dice between what AWK was asking for.
17:23:50 <Wilco> ... There may be other edge cases where we might want to rely on us not wanting to decide everything.
17:24:16 <Wilco> Peter: Completely agree. I'm just wondering if having a discussion on this devoid of place where it would help us may be ineffective.
17:24:57 <Wilco> Janina: Knowing we're likely to get back to our media discussions. Third party is part of our deliverables.
17:25:20 <Wilco> ... If we rush to make this distinction, do we block ourselves off?
17:25:24 <janina> q?
17:25:27 <janina> ack gr
17:25:35 <janina> ack ja
17:26:09 <Wilco> Gregg: I think we do it now. There is a lot of confusion in the group. All normative words should be defined. Compliance is not. We don't really have a standing. As a note under conformance its nice to make a contrast.
17:26:22 <JF> Q+
17:26:29 <Wilco> ... The reason to put it in is so everyone can see it and comment.
17:26:31 <janina> q?
17:26:43 <Wilco> +1 to Gregg's alternative
17:27:26 <Wilco> Gregg: You talked about an United posting on YouTube. It's United that's on the hook for that, not YouTube
17:27:46 <janina> q+
17:27:49 <janina> ack jf
17:28:06 <Wilco> JF: Agree to getting it there. This came up Tuesday.
17:28:24 <PeterKorn> q+
17:28:32 <Wilco> Janina: This fear of publishing makes sense to for WCAG 2.2, but for 3.0 we should have an easier attitude.
17:29:01 <GreggVan> +1 to janinas comment   RE  new in 2.2   vs  new in 3.0 which is nascent
17:29:22 <janina> q?
17:29:24 <JF> agenda?
17:29:27 <janina> ack ja
17:29:28 <janina> ack pe
17:29:33 <Azlan> q+
17:29:55 <Wilco> Peter: No objection to bring this to Silver / AGWG. It's important. My only question is do we do it with just this text, or bring it with additional context around where this is important.
17:30:10 <janina> q?
17:30:19 <Wilco> ... so that we can say this is one of the places where it's important.
17:30:37 <GreggVan> +1 to providing context -- but I would not tie it to media or any other topic.   that will draw all that into the discussion and this is generic
17:30:43 <GreggVan> q+
17:30:50 <Wilco> ... It's just a question of what will help make the discussion most effective.
17:31:05 <janina> ack az
17:31:38 <PeterKorn> Prefer 2nd option.
17:32:07 <Wilco> Azlan: Do we have a prefer the alternate version or the new one.
17:32:20 <Wilco> Janina: I think we get rid of the initial text and make the alternate version the proposed one.
17:32:50 <Wilco> ... At least maybe we should trial it on the Friday call.
17:32:56 <shadi> +1 to ditching the initial version in favor of the second and more improved version
17:33:00 <janina> ack gr
17:33:33 <Wilco> Gregg: Agree not to have two things. I agree we should provide context, but it should be generic. We're doing this because there is a lot of confusion around these therms.
17:34:00 <Wilco> ... I would not tie it around any particular topic. I would predict the conversation switches quickly to the other topics.
17:34:09 <janina> q?
17:34:30 <shadi> q+
17:34:37 <Wilco> ... Don't want to see it get tangled in a larger discussion.
17:34:40 <janina> ack sh
17:35:10 <Wilco> Shadi: This is different. I much prefer the second version. I do have a wording comment.
17:35:36 <Wilco> Janina: Lets discuss it.
17:36:18 <Wilco> Shadi: The second paragraph in conformance... "something, as contrasted to some entity"
17:36:33 <Wilco> ... That implies that only entities comply, and I wonder if products can also comply.
17:36:45 <GreggVan> q+
17:37:02 <Wilco> ... Later on we talk about entities that comply, I'm not sure it's that restricted. I believe there are laws that might provide tolerances.
17:37:09 <JF> Q+
17:37:20 <janina> q?
17:37:28 <Wilco> ... I can provide these wordings in writing.
17:37:49 <jeanne> Jeanne notes that the examples were just notes from the meeting.  Please feel free to edit them.
17:38:17 <Wilco> Gregg: Only entities can comply with the law. Laws are a requirement on legal entities. It can't be on a chair, the person who manufactured it has to comply.
17:38:25 <Wilco> ... Content conforms, entities comply.
17:38:25 <JF> ack me
17:38:30 <janina> q?
17:38:31 <JF> a huge +1 to Gregg
17:38:38 <janina> ack gr
17:38:46 <Wilco> ... Regarding tolerances, you conform to provisions. Provisions is where you put tolerances.
17:39:07 <JF> Q+
17:39:15 <Wilco> ... I think that the idea of tolerances is interesting to explore, but it wouldn't be in the definition.
17:39:21 <shadi> q+
17:39:42 <PeterKorn> I've swapped the two on the page, but otherwise left the text contents alone
17:39:48 <jeanne> q+ to say that the examples were notes taken in the last meeting
17:39:48 <PeterKorn> (if you want to refresh the page)
17:39:53 <Wilco> Janina: That's some place compliance is accustomed to put different requirements on entities with different resources.
17:39:56 <shadi> q- later
17:40:07 <janina> ack jf
17:40:30 <Wilco> JF: When you comply to section 508 you conform to WCAG, but there are other requirements.
17:40:59 <Wilco> ... I think it's important we continue to make the distinction.
17:41:05 <janina> ack jea
17:41:05 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say that the examples were notes taken in the last meeting
17:41:26 <Wilco> Jeanne: Those examples do not have to be part, we can change or delete them as you want.
17:41:53 <janina> q+
17:41:54 <Wilco> Shadi: Looking at dictionary definitions, it's a little ambiguous.
17:42:03 <Wilco> ... compliance is the act of obeying a rule.
17:42:10 <shadi> ack me
17:42:35 <janina> ack ja
17:42:37 <Wilco> Gregg: Example is how to enforce the law, you arrest people. You can't issue a fine against a page.
17:42:54 <Wilco> ... The only way to enforce laws, you can never enforce a law against an object.
17:43:31 <Wilco> Janina: Let me propose we have this proposal, and lets take it to Silver on Friday. We're not quite ready for AGWG.
17:43:44 <GreggVan> q+
17:43:48 <Wilco> Jeanne: Tuesday agenda is already set.
17:44:03 <PeterKorn> q+
17:44:05 <Wilco> ... I'll check with Shawn if we can get it on the agenda for Friday.
17:44:31 <Wilco> Janina: We have two items, 450 response and the glossary definitions.
17:44:37 <janina> ack gr
17:44:49 <Wilco> Gregg: Current draft still has the old draft at the bottom. I suggest we delete it.
17:44:57 <PeterKorn> +1 to delete; just left it while we were discussing
17:45:36 <Wilco> Peter: Agreed. I would also drop the examples if we're asking Silver to look at it. We haven't had a chance to discuss them.
17:45:52 <Azlan> +1
17:46:02 <Wilco> Gregg: Agreed. It's not really an example, it's redundant.
17:46:38 <PeterKorn> Order executed
17:47:24 <PeterKorn> Don't call me Shirley!
17:47:44 <janina> q?
17:47:55 <janina> ack pe
17:48:13 <Wilco> Jeanne: Confirmed, we're on the agenda tomorrow.
17:48:49 <Wilco> zakim, take up next
17:48:49 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Deliverables Planning for 2022 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Deliverables -- taken up [from janina]
17:49:30 <PeterKorn> q+
17:50:08 <Wilco> Gregg: This meeting is about conformance, so the issues here have to do with conforming, reporting conforming, deciding, correct?
17:50:23 <Wilco> Janina: Yes. The kind of stuff from the challenges paper.
17:50:51 <Wilco> Gregg: Then I would add tolerances in here, to see if we can sort out what the role of tolerance should be in conformance.
17:50:59 <Wilco> ... It seems we ought to think of that.
17:51:14 <janina> q?
17:51:14 <Wilco> ... I think there are two types. Tolerance at the provisional level, and tolerance at the standard level.
17:52:05 <Wilco> Peter: I don't know if that fits in with what I added at the bottom. All software has bugs, or whether the tolerances idea is distinct from that. They are certainly related.
17:52:18 <Wilco> ... I'd like to discuss that sooner than Q4 2022.
17:52:32 <Wilco> Gregg: I think they are separate topics, both important.
17:52:59 <Wilco> ... We have to figure out how to make it without claiming accessibility issue is just a bug.
17:53:08 <Wilco> ... Maybe it has to do with remediation?
17:53:16 <PeterKorn> ?
17:53:18 <PeterKorn> q?
17:53:39 <Wilco> Janina: Another spin, people relying on third-party libraries which are no longer maintained.
17:53:52 <Wilco> Gregg: Some cases there isn't an alternative.
17:54:22 <Wilco> Janina: Some of the abandoned open source libraries, maybe get some of the open source groups fix a few issues.
17:54:34 <Wilco> ... Not permanent, problems that need to be fixed.
17:54:50 <janina> q?
17:54:53 <janina> ack pe
17:54:59 <Wilco> q+
17:55:22 <Wilco> Peter: I think how much of tolerance is within conformance, how much is a compliance question.
17:55:36 <Wilco> ... All software has bugs may have a compliance component when it comes to remediation timelines.
17:56:12 <Wilco> ... Another that comes to mind is where and how one might do public betas.
17:56:27 <jeanne> q+ to talk about scheduling from chairs work
17:56:35 <Wilco> ... Part of what's being beta-tested
17:56:40 <Wilco> q-
17:56:50 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Substantial_Conformance/Example_Scenarios
17:57:00 <Wilco> ... What to do when there is a new UI interaction model with no known way to make it accessible.
17:57:45 <Wilco> Jeanne: This schedule is part of the larger project. The chairs put a lot of work into looking at what can be done in parallel and what things have dependants.
17:58:00 <Wilco> ... I think we first do the work the chairs have asked us for.
17:58:09 <shadi> q+
17:58:38 <PeterKorn> q?
17:58:41 <JF> that plan here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yzR1H0SnNFRELGchb_BJr4Necsrj6xVjDF1n7Tc0kTc/edit#gid=0
17:58:41 <Wilco> Wilco: We can ask the chairs if it could work, but would prefer to keep the order
17:58:53 <Wilco> Janina: I see that as a given
17:59:09 <Wilco> ... It's a good point that this is from parallel processing.
17:59:15 <Wilco> ... You can see where things fit.
17:59:41 <janina> ack sh
18:00:07 <Wilco> Shadi: The thought here was not to add more deliverables. I think these are all issues I've heard in different discussions.
18:00:18 <Wilco> ... Happy to handle things as issues come in.
18:00:19 <PeterKorn> Regrets, I need to drop.
18:00:46 <Wilco> ... I have difficulty understanding the larger plan of conformance. This was a suggestion to try and have the big picture.
18:01:15 <Wilco> Janina: If we need chair assistance we can request it in January.
18:03:42 <ToddL> ToddL has left #silver-conf
18:05:15 <Wilco> zakim, end meeting
18:05:15 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been janina, JF, PeterKorn, shadi, Azlan, ToddL, jeanne, GreggVan, Susi_Pallero
18:05:17 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:05:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/16-silver-conf-minutes.html Zakim
18:05:20 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Wilco; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:05:24 <Zakim> Zakim has left #silver-conf