IRC log of silver-protocols on 2021-12-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:58:13 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #silver-protocols
13:58:13 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/12/10-silver-protocols-irc
13:58:27 [JF]
zakim, start this meeting
13:58:27 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:58:28 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JF
13:58:44 [JF]
meeting: Protocols Sub Group - Dec 10, 2021
13:59:11 [JF]
Agenda+ Continue brainstorming the protocols that we believe would be applicable
13:59:24 [JF]
Agenda+ Other Business
13:59:34 [JF]
Agenda+ Be Done
13:59:36 [JF]
Present+
14:00:06 [JF]
https://jamboard.google.com/d/1U17jOitr4CyCrmaQtv6KU93thhHLzSVQAHUqb9HUDeE/viewer?f=0
14:00:35 [ShawnT]
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14:07:41 [JF]
https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/bfc72cd9-fdfc-4847-826a-01afb9e3f5e7/20211105T090000
14:07:53 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #silver-protocols
14:07:58 [JF]
https://jamboard.google.com/d/1U17jOitr4CyCrmaQtv6KU93thhHLzSVQAHUqb9HUDeE/viewer?f=0
14:08:00 [jeanne]
agenda?
14:08:51 [JF]
Present+
14:09:13 [jeanne]
scribe: jeanne
14:09:44 [Mary_Jo_Mueller]
Mary_Jo_Mueller has joined #silver-protocols
14:09:54 [JF]
regrets: Chuck
14:10:19 [Mary_Jo_Mueller]
present+
14:14:18 [jeanne]
q+
14:14:28 [ShawnT]
present+
14:14:45 [jeanne]
present+
14:15:08 [jeanne]
JG: Does plain language apply internationally?
14:15:29 [jeanne]
JS: The group is working on that, there are international resources for plain language.
14:15:58 [jeanne]
q+ to say that MC didn't recommend Content Usable
14:16:37 [Jaunita_George]
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14:16:41 [Jaunita_George]
Present+
14:17:12 [ShawnT]
q+
14:17:19 [jeanne]
ack je
14:17:19 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to say that MC didn't recommend Content Usable
14:17:39 [jeanne]
JS: I think we need to start with something simpler than Content Usable
14:17:51 [jeanne]
JF: I still think that we need measurable.
14:18:34 [jeanne]
JF: I think Content Usable is the ideal content
14:18:59 [jeanne]
q+ to suggest we start with ARIA Authoring guide
14:19:21 [ShawnT]
+1 on jeanne
14:20:32 [jeanne]
+1 - that's a great one
14:20:38 [jeanne]
ack shaw
14:21:54 [jeanne]
JG: Can we have technology specific guidelines?
14:22:16 [jeanne]
ST: I think we should have a protocol for validating for HTML
14:22:30 [Jaunita_George]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/mobile/
14:22:47 [jeanne]
JS: WHy don't we make a list of propotols and then debate pros and cons.
14:22:54 [JF]
Q?
14:22:57 [JF]
Q+
14:23:01 [jeanne]
ack je
14:23:01 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to suggest we start with ARIA Authoring guide
14:23:39 [jeanne]
JG: Mobile Accessibility at W3C as a protocol
14:24:00 [jeanne]
q+ to say what about BBC Mobile Accessibility?
14:24:16 [ShawnT]
I like the idea of creating a list of protocols now, can we start a Google docs or sheets?
14:24:48 [Jaunita_George]
+1 to using Google docs
14:24:54 [jeanne]
JF: IS that a protocol? We want something to that you know it when you see it.
14:24:56 [jeanne]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JK1UMfSDh0-dVEDuj5xswRU4XwlP50iuTSz8l1VFf-A/edit#heading=h.vbejvwdjmm97
14:25:18 [jeanne]
JS: Google doc with some prior meeting work on brainstorming protocols
14:25:26 [jeanne]
ack jf
14:26:51 [jeanne]
JS: let's brainstorm protocols and add them to the list from the prior meeting
14:28:11 [ShawnT]
q+ defining protocol before making a list
14:28:22 [jeanne]
JG: Are protocols normative?
14:28:32 [jeanne]
JS: Let's defer that discussion
14:28:49 [jeanne]
JF: I don't think they can be normative because they aren't measurable
14:29:08 [ShawnT]
q+ to defining protocol before making a list
14:29:22 [jeanne]
ack jea
14:29:22 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to say what about BBC Mobile Accessibility?
14:29:25 [jeanne]
ack shaw
14:29:25 [Zakim]
ShawnT, you wanted to defining protocol before making a list
14:29:42 [Jaunita_George]
https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_en/301500_301599/301549/03.02.01_60/en_301549v030201p.pdf
14:29:55 [jeanne]
ST: I want to define protocols first, instead of making a list and then defining
14:31:46 [jeanne]
JF: the decision tree for alt text is a good example of a protocol
14:32:58 [ShawnT]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/wcag/non-web-ict/
14:33:10 [jeanne]
JG: What about Accessibility requirements for ICT products and services?
14:33:20 [jeanne]
MJM: That's a standard, not a protocol
14:33:32 [jeanne]
... it includes WCAG
14:34:01 [jeanne]
JF: It's mostly measurable
14:34:16 [jeanne]
MJM: In the video ICT capabilities
14:34:57 [jeanne]
JF: the section on captioning position has no measurable requirements
14:36:16 [jeanne]
... If it cannot be measured against a benchmark, then it should be a protocol.
14:38:08 [JF]
Poll: A defining feature of a protocol is that it cannot be consistently measured against a benchmark, but it can use a benchmark as a reference
14:38:16 [Jaunita_George]
+1
14:38:28 [ShawnT]
+1
14:39:31 [jeanne]
JS: I don't understand "it can use a benchmark as a reference"
14:39:48 [JF]
https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/
14:39:59 [jeanne]
JF: In content usable, there are 8 outcomes
14:39:59 [JF]
New Poll: A defining feature of a protocol is that it cannot be consistently measured against a benchmark
14:40:04 [jeanne]
+1
14:40:07 [Mary_Jo_Mueller]
+1
14:40:30 [Jennifer]
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14:40:34 [Jennifer]
present+
14:40:44 [JF]
https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/#objective-1-help-users-understand-what-things-are-and-how-to-use-them
14:41:13 [jeanne]
ST: Will people understand what a benchmark is?
14:41:31 [jeanne]
JF: The Content Usable objectives are a benchmark
14:42:59 [jeanne]
JF: What about "outcome"?
14:43:17 [jeanne]
MJM: It could be confusing with normative Outcomes in WCAG3
14:44:18 [jeanne]
... when people come to the documentation and resources, will they understand what they have to do and what they don't? It coiuld muddy the water.
14:45:06 [jeanne]
JG: Can we use "result"?
14:45:26 [JF]
A defining feature of a protocol is that it cannot be consistently measured against an (outcome | result)
14:46:00 [jeanne]
MJM: an expected result
14:46:14 [jeanne]
JF: It has to be a reaction that meets our expectation
14:46:41 [Mary_Jo_Mueller]
perhaps "desired result"?
14:48:39 [jeanne]
JSt: A list of questions to ask oneself while they are working. People - devs - often complain that Outcomes are subjective. One auditor gives one answer, and one gives another.
14:48:48 [ShawnT]
+1 Jennifer
14:49:21 [JF]
Q+
14:49:22 [jeanne]
... there are questions you can ask to clarify the experience of what people with disabilitiess need.
14:49:45 [jeanne]
ack JF
14:51:32 [jeanne]
JSt: We have to figure out how we experts make decisions so that can be documented and passed on to others
14:52:09 [jeanne]
... we should send a survey out to our broader community to ask: What are the questions you ask yourself to make sure it is accessible.
14:52:24 [jeanne]
JF: It's too broad, we need to chop it into smaller pieces.
14:52:37 [ShawnT]
q+
14:55:22 [jeanne]
ST: in COGA we are looking at tools of how the Content Usable Outcomes can be met
14:55:39 [JF]
Q+
14:55:44 [JF]
ack s
14:55:45 [jeanne]
q+ to say that there are volunteers who are testing experts to help make them testable
14:56:06 [jeanne]
ST: I am reaching out to colleagues on how to test them
14:56:24 [jeanne]
... consistency between auditors is important
14:56:32 [jeanne]
... it seems very subjective
14:56:37 [jeanne]
ack JF
14:57:03 [jeanne]
JF: I think they will never be able to find a tool to evaluate plain language
14:57:26 [jeanne]
... but we can evaluate if the principles have been followed
14:57:45 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:57:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/10-silver-protocols-minutes.html jeanne
14:59:12 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:59:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/10-silver-protocols-minutes.html jeanne