14:38:24 RRSAgent has joined #wpwg 14:38:24 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/12/09-wpwg-irc 14:38:31 Meeting: Web Payments Working Group 14:38:42 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/Agenda-20211209 14:38:48 Chair: Nick 14:38:50 Scribe: Ian 14:41:33 agenda+ Welcome Chairs 14:41:41 agenda+ New Privacy and Payments resources 14:41:48 agenda+ Payment Request and PMI Next Steps 14:41:55 agenda+ Rechartering mini-update 14:42:09 agenda+ Year in review and upcoming priorities 14:42:18 agenda+ next meeting 20 January 2022 14:42:35 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/09-wpwg-minutes.html Ian 14:49:40 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/09-wpwg-minutes.html Ian 14:56:59 present+ Ian_Jacobs 14:58:05 Suzie has joined #wpwg 15:00:06 present+ 15:00:13 present+ Anne_Pouillard 15:00:18 present+ David_Benoit 15:00:25 present+ Jean-Luc_Di_Manno 15:00:42 JeanLuc has joined #wpwg 15:00:47 present+ John_Fontana 15:00:54 present+ Stephen_McGruer 15:01:46 present+ Rolf_Lindemann 15:01:58 present+ Praveena+Subrahmanyam 15:02:03 present- Praveena+Subrahmanyam 15:02:06 present+ Praveena_Subrahmanyam 15:02:33 present+ Suzie-Annezo_Sebire 15:02:46 present+ Tomoya_Horiguchi 15:02:51 present+ Werner_Bruinings 15:03:00 Rolf has joined #wpwg 15:03:03 Anne has joined #wpwg 15:03:26 werner has joined #wpwg 15:03:26 present+ Gerhard_Oosthuizen 15:04:11 -> https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/Agenda-20211209 Agenda 15:04:18 agenda? 15:04:30 Gerhard has joined #wpwg 15:04:35 present+ 15:04:43 present+ Doug_Fisher 15:04:46 present+ Manish 15:04:56 zakim, take up item 1 15:04:56 agendum 1 -- Welcome Chairs -- taken up [from Ian] 15:05:37 [Praveena and Gerhard] 15:06:36 present+ Nick_Telford-Reed 15:07:03 zakim, close item 1 15:07:03 agendum 1, Welcome Chairs, closed 15:07:04 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:07:04 2. New Privacy and Payments resources [from Ian] 15:07:09 zakim, take up item 2 15:07:09 agendum 2 -- New Privacy and Payments resources -- taken up [from Ian] 15:07:31 -> https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/tree/gh-pages/privacy Privacy and Payments 15:07:50 smcgruer_[EST]: We have documented how privacy changes might impact changes on the Web. 15:08:05 ...a lot on 3p cookie decprecation, but also about the general question of privacy. 15:08:09 ...we have three sections: 15:08:24 -> https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/blob/gh-pages/privacy/problem.md Problem statement 15:08:30 -> https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/blob/gh-pages/privacy/payment-flows/README.md Payment flows 15:08:37 -> https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/blob/gh-pages/privacy/use-cases/README.md Things that will break 15:08:58 smcgruer_[EST]: I invite people to help flesh these out and to let us know about things that are important to you and that, in particular, you think will break 15:09:41 Ian: What can we do? 15:09:53 smcgruer_[EST]: Would appreciate individuals reading these and letting us know their thoughts. 15:09:59 ...welcome pull requests 15:10:18 nicktr: What other consultations are going on between browsers and payments industry? 15:10:31 smcgruer_[EST]: As Chrome, our main forum is WPWG / WPSIG 15:10:42 ...we do have other partnerships via other parts of Google 15:11:08 ...this is the main forum. 15:11:35 nick: We should let various groups outside and within W3C about this. 15:11:48 ....e.g., MAG, Conexxus, etc. 15:12:14 Ian: In W3C: PING, WPSIG 15:12:36 ACTION: NickTR to work with co-CHairs and Team Contact to socialize these resources 15:12:38 q+ 15:12:56 ack Gerhard 15:13:11 Gerhard: Let's walk through some of this during our sessions. 15:13:31 ...the pages are focused on "the rails" 15:13:49 ...if you look at how open banking and FAPI works, payments are initiated in a different way 15:14:21 ...the surprises will happen around where and how you get customer consent, rather than how the money is moved 15:15:09 ...might be useful to build out the authentication / consent mechanisms in the different scenarios 15:15:42 ...what might be useful is that we may find we know will be problems. 15:15:58 ...e.g., we know that the method URL in an iframe will create this or that problem. 15:16:09 q? 15:16:41 nicktr: what is slightly reassuring is that Stephen has already mentioned behaviors that have already changed (e.g., cookie behavior in some browsers) 15:16:53 q+ to comment on that 15:17:18 nicktr: Also would be interesting to hear issues in non-card space 15:17:20 ack smcgruer_[EST] 15:17:20 smcgruer_[EST], you wanted to comment on that 15:17:55 smcgruer_[EST]: Agree world didn't end when Safari and Mozilla changed cookie behaviors, so that's mildly reassuring. But I think there are some things that will break that are of concern. 15:18:12 ...beyond 3p cookie changes, there's a broader question about the future direction. 15:18:23 q+ 15:18:45 smcgruer_[EST]: We also have to take a look at future payment models that are privacy protecting 15:19:35 Manish: 3p cookies IMO are less of an issue for open banking 15:19:44 ...due to the model 15:19:58 q+ 15:20:28 https://www.w3.org/TR/web-payments-use-cases/ 15:22:03 ack Ian 15:22:05 ack me 15:22:07 ack n 15:22:39 Ian: I think it would be interesting to do some vision work, although I find in practice that what gains traction may not always align with our higher level thinking 15:22:53 NickTR: In open banking, 3p cookies are often used for hints (e.g., user's preferred bank) 15:23:06 q+ 15:23:07 ...once in a 1p context, I agree that 3p cookies are less relevant 15:23:13 q+ 15:23:23 ack smcgruer_[EST] 15:23:52 smcgruer_[EST]: +1 to nick. One concrete thing I heard is that due to choice of banks, 3p cookie often used for keeping track of user pref 15:24:12 https://github.com/WICG/FedCM/blob/main/explainer/problem.md#navigational-tracking may be worth a read btw, for privacy cases that don't have to do with 3p cookies but which seem applicable to all of payments 15:24:17 nicktr: Payment handlers were designed to allow explicit consent 15:24:19 q+ to comment on payment handlers 15:24:26 ack Ian 15:24:31 -> https://www.w3.org/community/antifraud/ Anti-Fraud CG has started 15:25:09 q- 15:26:52 Ian: Any volunteers to read them? 15:26:57 I'm going to read them 15:26:58 Nick: I will 15:27:04 +1 to attempt to read them 15:27:06 zakim, close item 2 15:27:06 agendum 2, New Privacy and Payments resources, closed 15:27:07 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:27:07 3. Payment Request and PMI Next Steps [from Ian] 15:27:11 zakim, take up item 3 15:27:11 agendum 3 -- Payment Request and PMI Next Steps -- taken up [from Ian] 15:28:57 https://github.com/w3c/payment-request/pull/978 15:33:45 Ian: what's coming up: 15:33:51 - Decision regarding changes to the spec 15:33:56 - Call for consensus 15:34:01 - Transition request 15:35:52 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-payments-wg/2021Nov/0013.html 15:36:34 zakim, close item 3 15:36:34 agendum 3, Payment Request and PMI Next Steps, closed 15:36:35 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:36:35 4. Rechartering mini-update [from Ian] 15:36:41 zakim, take up item 4 15:36:41 agendum 4 -- Rechartering mini-update -- taken up [from Ian] 15:38:02 Ian: Stay tuned! 15:38:22 ....please ask your AC rep to review the charter 15:38:48 ...before 18 Dec 15:39:07 zakim, close item 4 15:39:07 agendum 4, Rechartering mini-update, closed 15:39:08 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:39:08 5. Year in review and upcoming priorities [from Ian] 15:39:11 zakim, take up item 5 15:39:11 agendum 5 -- Year in review and upcoming priorities -- taken up [from Ian] 15:39:41 nicktr: We are keen to understand where you want us to go 15:39:53 ...I listed my view of what I've heard in the agenda 15:40:08 https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/Agenda-20211209#upcoming-priorities-for-discussion 15:40:25 === 15:40:26 Getting Payment Request and Payment Method Manifest over the line as a recommendation. 15:40:26 Further experimentation and development of Secure Payment Confirmation 15:40:26 Privacy considerations based on browser changes; impact on risk assessment and "returning user" use case 15:40:26 Solving the payment handler conundrum 15:40:27 === 15:41:24 zakim, make minutes 15:41:26 I don't understand 'make minutes', Ian 15:41:31 RRSAGENT, make minutes 15:41:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/09-wpwg-minutes.html Ian 15:41:48 [Nick reviews the four things in his list] 15:42:01 Nick: What's missing for you from this list? 15:42:30 Nick: Other good questions for the group: 15:42:33 - Driving adoption 15:42:40 q+ 15:42:50 Nick: How do we get more non-card experimentation? 15:43:06 Nick: What do we want to see in terms of PR API next features? 15:43:20 ack me 15:43:41 Ian: Let's talk about SPC adoption. 15:45:54 ian: please go and have a look at the SPC issues 15:45:59 q? 15:46:07 zakim, close this item 15:46:07 agendum 5 closed 15:46:08 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 15:46:08 6. next meeting 20 January 2022 [from Ian] 15:46:12 zakim, take up item 6 15:46:12 agendum 6 -- next meeting 20 January 2022 -- taken up [from Ian] 15:46:14 20 Jan! 15:46:59 https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/Meetings 15:47:32 Nick: I will take an action item to work with the official w3c calendar 15:47:44 ACTION: Nick to look into using W3C calendar in the WPWG 15:48:02 zakim, close item 6 15:48:02 agendum 6, next meeting 20 January 2022, closed 15:48:03 I see nothing remaining on the agenda 15:48:09 Nick: Thanks everyone for another awesome year! 15:48:23 ...we'll look at more privacy discussion at the 20 Jan call 15:48:27 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/09-wpwg-minutes.html Ian 15:48:37 RRSAGENT, set logs public 15:48:51 thank you! Happy holidays all! 15:55:36 zakim, bye 15:55:36 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Ian_Jacobs, benoit, Anne_Pouillard, David_Benoit, Jean-Luc_Di_Manno, John_Fontana, Stephen_McGruer, Rolf_Lindemann, 15:55:36 Zakim has left #wpwg 15:55:39 ... Praveena+Subrahmanyam, Praveena_Subrahmanyam, Suzie-Annezo_Sebire, Tomoya_Horiguchi, Werner_Bruinings, Gerhard_Oosthuizen, Gerhard, Doug_Fisher, Manish, Nick_Telford-Reed 15:55:42 RRSAGENT, bye 15:55:42 I see 2 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2021/12/09-wpwg-actions.rdf : 15:55:42 ACTION: NickTR to work with co-CHairs and Team Contact to socialize these resources [1] 15:55:42 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/12/09-wpwg-irc#T15-12-36 15:55:42 ACTION: Nick to look into using W3C calendar in the WPWG [2] 15:55:42 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/12/09-wpwg-irc#T15-47-44