IRC log of wpwg on 2021-12-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:38:24 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #wpwg
14:38:24 [RRSAgent]: logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/12/09-wpwg-irc
14:38:31 [Ian]: Meeting: Web Payments Working Group
14:38:42 [Ian]: Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/Agenda-20211209
14:38:48 [Ian]: Chair: Nick
14:38:50 [Ian]: Scribe: Ian
14:41:33 [Ian]: agenda+ Welcome Chairs
14:41:41 [Ian]: agenda+ New Privacy and Payments resources
14:41:48 [Ian]: agenda+ Payment Request and PMI Next Steps
14:41:55 [Ian]: agenda+ Rechartering mini-update
14:42:09 [Ian]: agenda+ Year in review and upcoming priorities
14:42:18 [Ian]: agenda+ next meeting 20 January 2022
14:42:35 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/09-wpwg-minutes.html Ian
14:49:40 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/09-wpwg-minutes.html Ian
14:56:59 [Ian]: present+ Ian_Jacobs
14:58:05 [Suzie]: Suzie has joined #wpwg
15:00:06 [benoit]: present+
15:00:13 [Ian]: present+ Anne_Pouillard
15:00:18 [Ian]: present+ David_Benoit
15:00:25 [Ian]: present+ Jean-Luc_Di_Manno
15:00:42 [JeanLuc]: JeanLuc has joined #wpwg
15:00:47 [Ian]: present+ John_Fontana
15:00:54 [Ian]: present+ Stephen_McGruer
15:01:46 [Ian]: present+ Rolf_Lindemann
15:01:58 [Ian]: present+ Praveena+Subrahmanyam
15:02:03 [Ian]: present- Praveena+Subrahmanyam
15:02:06 [Ian]: present+ Praveena_Subrahmanyam
15:02:33 [Ian]: present+ Suzie-Annezo_Sebire
15:02:46 [Ian]: present+ Tomoya_Horiguchi
15:02:51 [Ian]: present+ Werner_Bruinings
15:03:00 [Rolf]: Rolf has joined #wpwg
15:03:03 [Anne]: Anne has joined #wpwg
15:03:26 [werner]: werner has joined #wpwg
15:03:26 [Ian]: present+ Gerhard_Oosthuizen
15:04:11 [Ian]: -> https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/Agenda-20211209 Agenda
15:04:18 [Ian]: agenda?
15:04:30 [Gerhard]: Gerhard has joined #wpwg
15:04:35 [Gerhard]: present+
15:04:43 [Ian]: present+ Doug_Fisher
15:04:46 [Ian]: present+ Manish
15:04:56 [Ian]: zakim, take up item 1
15:04:56 [Zakim]: agendum 1 -- Welcome Chairs -- taken up [from Ian]
15:05:37 [Ian]: [Praveena and Gerhard]
15:06:36 [Ian]: present+ Nick_Telford-Reed
15:07:03 [Ian]: zakim, close item 1
15:07:03 [Zakim]: agendum 1, Welcome Chairs, closed
15:07:04 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:07:04 [Zakim]: 2. New Privacy and Payments resources [from Ian]
15:07:09 [Ian]: zakim, take up item 2
15:07:09 [Zakim]: agendum 2 -- New Privacy and Payments resources -- taken up [from Ian]
15:07:31 [Ian]: -> https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/tree/gh-pages/privacy Privacy and Payments
15:07:50 [Ian]: smcgruer_[EST]: We have documented how privacy changes might impact changes on the Web.
15:08:05 [Ian]: ...a lot on 3p cookie decprecation, but also about the general question of privacy.
15:08:09 [Ian]: ...we have three sections:
15:08:24 [Ian]: -> https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/blob/gh-pages/privacy/problem.md Problem statement
15:08:30 [Ian]: -> https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/blob/gh-pages/privacy/payment-flows/README.md Payment flows
15:08:37 [Ian]: -> https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/blob/gh-pages/privacy/use-cases/README.md Things that will break
15:08:58 [Ian]: smcgruer_[EST]: I invite people to help flesh these out and to let us know about things that are important to you and that, in particular, you think will break
15:09:41 [Ian]: Ian: What can we do?
15:09:53 [Ian]: smcgruer_[EST]: Would appreciate individuals reading these and letting us know their thoughts.
15:09:59 [Ian]: ...welcome pull requests
15:10:18 [Ian]: nicktr: What other consultations are going on between browsers and payments industry?
15:10:31 [Ian]: smcgruer_[EST]: As Chrome, our main forum is WPWG / WPSIG
15:10:42 [Ian]: ...we do have other partnerships via other parts of Google
15:11:08 [Ian]: ...this is the main forum.
15:11:35 [Ian]: nick: We should let various groups outside and within W3C about this.
15:11:48 [Ian]: ....e.g., MAG, Conexxus, etc.
15:12:14 [Ian]: Ian: In W3C: PING, WPSIG
15:12:36 [Ian]: ACTION: NickTR to work with co-CHairs and Team Contact to socialize these resources
15:12:38 [Gerhard]: q+
15:12:56 [Ian]: ack Gerhard
15:13:11 [Ian]: Gerhard: Let's walk through some of this during our sessions.
15:13:31 [Ian]: ...the pages are focused on "the rails"
15:13:49 [Ian]: ...if you look at how open banking and FAPI works, payments are initiated in a different way
15:14:21 [Ian]: ...the surprises will happen around where and how you get customer consent, rather than how the money is moved
15:15:09 [Ian]: ...might be useful to build out the authentication / consent mechanisms in the different scenarios
15:15:42 [Ian]: ...what might be useful is that we may find we know will be problems.
15:15:58 [Ian]: ...e.g., we know that the method URL in an iframe will create this or that problem.
15:16:09 [Ian]: q?
15:16:41 [Ian]: nicktr: what is slightly reassuring is that Stephen has already mentioned behaviors that have already changed (e.g., cookie behavior in some browsers)
15:16:53 [smcgruer_[EST]]: q+ to comment on that
15:17:18 [Ian]: nicktr: Also would be interesting to hear issues in non-card space
15:17:20 [Ian]: ack smcgruer_[EST]
15:17:20 [Zakim]: smcgruer_[EST], you wanted to comment on that
15:17:55 [Ian]: smcgruer_[EST]: Agree world didn't end when Safari and Mozilla changed cookie behaviors, so that's mildly reassuring. But I think there are some things that will break that are of concern.
15:18:12 [Ian]: ...beyond 3p cookie changes, there's a broader question about the future direction.
15:18:23 [Ian]: q+
15:18:45 [Ian]: smcgruer_[EST]: We also have to take a look at future payment models that are privacy protecting
15:19:35 [Ian]: Manish: 3p cookies IMO are less of an issue for open banking
15:19:44 [Ian]: ...due to the model
15:19:58 [nicktr]: q+
15:20:28 [Ian]: https://www.w3.org/TR/web-payments-use-cases/
15:22:03 [nicktr]: ack Ian
15:22:05 [nicktr]: ack me
15:22:07 [Ian]: ack n
15:22:39 [Ian]: Ian: I think it would be interesting to do some vision work, although I find in practice that what gains traction may not always align with our higher level thinking
15:22:53 [Ian]: NickTR: In open banking, 3p cookies are often used for hints (e.g., user's preferred bank)
15:23:06 [smcgruer_[EST]]: q+
15:23:07 [Ian]: ...once in a 1p context, I agree that 3p cookies are less relevant
15:23:13 [Ian]: q+
15:23:23 [nicktr]: ack smcgruer_[EST]
15:23:52 [Ian]: smcgruer_[EST]: +1 to nick. One concrete thing I heard is that due to choice of banks, 3p cookie often used for keeping track of user pref
15:24:12 [smcgruer_[EST]]: https://github.com/WICG/FedCM/blob/main/explainer/problem.md#navigational-tracking may be worth a read btw, for privacy cases that don't have to do with 3p cookies but which seem applicable to all of payments
15:24:17 [Ian]: nicktr: Payment handlers were designed to allow explicit consent
15:24:19 [smcgruer_[EST]]: q+ to comment on payment handlers
15:24:26 [nicktr]: ack Ian
15:24:31 [Ian]: -> https://www.w3.org/community/antifraud/ Anti-Fraud CG has started
15:25:09 [smcgruer_[EST]]: q-
15:26:52 [Ian]: Ian: Any volunteers to read them?
15:26:57 [nicktr]: I'm going to read them
15:26:58 [Ian]: Nick: I will
15:27:04 [Gerhard]: +1 to attempt to read them
15:27:06 [Ian]: zakim, close item 2
15:27:06 [Zakim]: agendum 2, New Privacy and Payments resources, closed
15:27:07 [Zakim]: I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:27:07 [Zakim]: 3. Payment Request and PMI Next Steps [from Ian]
15:27:11 [Ian]: zakim, take up item 3
15:27:11 [Zakim]: agendum 3 -- Payment Request and PMI Next Steps -- taken up [from Ian]
15:28:57 [Ian]: https://github.com/w3c/payment-request/pull/978
15:33:45 [Ian]: Ian: what's coming up:
15:33:51 [Ian]: - Decision regarding changes to the spec
15:33:56 [Ian]: - Call for consensus
15:34:01 [Ian]: - Transition request
15:35:52 [Ian]: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-payments-wg/2021Nov/0013.html
15:36:34 [Ian]: zakim, close item 3
15:36:34 [Zakim]: agendum 3, Payment Request and PMI Next Steps, closed
15:36:35 [Zakim]: I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:36:35 [Zakim]: 4. Rechartering mini-update [from Ian]
15:36:41 [Ian]: zakim, take up item 4
15:36:41 [Zakim]: agendum 4 -- Rechartering mini-update -- taken up [from Ian]
15:38:02 [Ian]: Ian: Stay tuned!
15:38:22 [Ian]: ....please ask your AC rep to review the charter
15:38:48 [Ian]: ...before 18 Dec
15:39:07 [Ian]: zakim, close item 4
15:39:07 [Zakim]: agendum 4, Rechartering mini-update, closed
15:39:08 [Zakim]: I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:39:08 [Zakim]: 5. Year in review and upcoming priorities [from Ian]
15:39:11 [Ian]: zakim, take up item 5
15:39:11 [Zakim]: agendum 5 -- Year in review and upcoming priorities -- taken up [from Ian]
15:39:41 [Ian]: nicktr: We are keen to understand where you want us to go
15:39:53 [Ian]: ...I listed my view of what I've heard in the agenda
15:40:08 [Ian]: https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/Agenda-20211209#upcoming-priorities-for-discussion
15:40:25 [Ian]: ===
15:40:26 [Ian]: Getting Payment Request and Payment Method Manifest over the line as a recommendation.
15:40:26 [Ian]: Further experimentation and development of Secure Payment Confirmation
15:40:26 [Ian]: Privacy considerations based on browser changes; impact on risk assessment and "returning user" use case
15:40:26 [Ian]: Solving the payment handler conundrum
15:40:27 [Ian]: ===
15:41:24 [Ian]: zakim, make minutes
15:41:26 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'make minutes', Ian
15:41:31 [Ian]: RRSAGENT, make minutes
15:41:31 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/09-wpwg-minutes.html Ian
15:41:48 [Ian]: [Nick reviews the four things in his list]
15:42:01 [Ian]: Nick: What's missing for you from this list?
15:42:30 [Ian]: Nick: Other good questions for the group:
15:42:33 [Ian]: - Driving adoption
15:42:40 [Ian]: q+
15:42:50 [Ian]: Nick: How do we get more non-card experimentation?
15:43:06 [Ian]: Nick: What do we want to see in terms of PR API next features?
15:43:20 [Ian]: ack me
15:43:41 [Ian]: Ian: Let's talk about SPC adoption.
15:45:54 [nicktr]: ian: please go and have a look at the SPC issues
15:45:59 [Ian]: q?
15:46:07 [Ian]: zakim, close this item
15:46:07 [Zakim]: agendum 5 closed
15:46:08 [Zakim]: I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:46:08 [Zakim]: 6. next meeting 20 January 2022 [from Ian]
15:46:12 [Ian]: zakim, take up item 6
15:46:12 [Zakim]: agendum 6 -- next meeting 20 January 2022 -- taken up [from Ian]
15:46:14 [Ian]: 20 Jan!
15:46:59 [Ian]: https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/Meetings
15:47:32 [Ian]: Nick: I will take an action item to work with the official w3c calendar
15:47:44 [Ian]: ACTION: Nick to look into using W3C calendar in the WPWG
15:48:02 [Ian]: zakim, close item 6
15:48:02 [Zakim]: agendum 6, next meeting 20 January 2022, closed
15:48:03 [Zakim]: I see nothing remaining on the agenda
15:48:09 [Ian]: Nick: Thanks everyone for another awesome year!
15:48:23 [Ian]: ...we'll look at more privacy discussion at the 20 Jan call
15:48:27 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/09-wpwg-minutes.html Ian
15:48:37 [Ian]: RRSAGENT, set logs public
15:48:51 [benoit]: thank you! Happy holidays all!
15:55:36 [Ian]: zakim, bye
15:55:36 [Zakim]: leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Ian_Jacobs, benoit, Anne_Pouillard, David_Benoit, Jean-Luc_Di_Manno, John_Fontana, Stephen_McGruer, Rolf_Lindemann,
15:55:36 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #wpwg
15:55:39 [Zakim]: ... Praveena+Subrahmanyam, Praveena_Subrahmanyam, Suzie-Annezo_Sebire, Tomoya_Horiguchi, Werner_Bruinings, Gerhard_Oosthuizen, Gerhard, Doug_Fisher, Manish, Nick_Telford-Reed
15:55:42 [Ian]: RRSAGENT, bye
15:55:42 [RRSAgent]: I see 2 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2021/12/09-wpwg-actions.rdf :
15:55:42 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: NickTR to work with co-CHairs and Team Contact to socialize these resources [1]
15:55:42 [RRSAgent]: recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/12/09-wpwg-irc#T15-12-36
15:55:42 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Nick to look into using W3C calendar in the WPWG [2]
15:55:42 [RRSAgent]: recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/12/09-wpwg-irc#T15-47-44