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16:40:43 <janina> Meeting: Silver Conformance Options Subgroup
16:40:48 <janina> Date: 09 Dec 2021
16:40:53 <janina> Chair: Janina
16:41:01 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
16:41:05 <janina> agenda?
16:41:09 <janina> Agenda+ Agenda Review & Administrative Items
16:41:09 <janina> Agenda+ Agenda Review & Administrative Items
16:41:09 <janina> agenda+ Conformance and Compliance Glossary Definitions https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Current_Glossary_Candidates
16:41:12 <janina> agenda+ Deliverables Planning https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Deliverables
16:41:15 <janina> agenda+ Sampling & Reporting -- Use Cases https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YgiOg3CZz-LAVxRT0CWUTWHzyVa3UrjqdU4NvoyUZ_8/
16:41:18 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
16:41:21 <janina> agenda+ Be Done
16:49:02 <janina>  Regrets: Bruce_Bailey
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17:02:11 <Darryl> Darryl has joined #silver-conf
17:03:02 <PeterKorn> PeterKorn has joined #silver-conf
17:04:03 <PeterKorn> scribe: PeterKorn
17:05:04 <PeterKorn> zakin, next item
17:05:11 <PeterKorn> Zakim, next item
17:05:11 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Administrative Items -- taken up [from janina]
17:05:53 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #silver-conf
17:06:07 <maryjom> present+
17:06:18 <PeterKorn> present+
17:07:07 <PeterKorn> Janina: will have pass down of conformance & compliance - on the agenda
17:07:19 <PeterKorn> ...also AGWG co-chairs desires of us for coming year
17:07:41 <PeterKorn> ...and returning to sampling use cases.
17:08:03 <shadi> q+
17:08:12 <PeterKorn> ...expect to have 1 more meeting this year, then two weeks off, to resume in Jan.
17:08:35 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/
17:08:43 <PeterKorn> Jeanne: announcement: WCAG 3 next public working draft has been published!
17:08:58 <JF> JF has joined #silver-conf
17:08:58 <PeterKorn> ...user generated content is in it.
17:08:59 <jeanne> User Generated Content <- https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#user-generated-content
17:09:04 <JF> Present+
17:09:32 <shadi> present+
17:09:34 <PeterKorn> Janina: with this publication, might now return to other user generated topics, and reply to public feedback on user generated, pointing them to this text
17:09:45 <shadi> ack shadi
17:09:57 <PeterKorn> Shadi: what is the plan for talking about examples wiki page?
17:10:17 <PeterKorn> Janina: thought we'd look at that when we look at list of deliverables (AGWG chairs desires)
17:11:05 <PeterKorn> ...see it as a doc we use to drive deliverables, vs. a deliverable of itself
17:11:08 <PeterKorn> zakin, next item
17:11:14 <PeterKorn> Zakim, next item
17:11:14 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Agenda Review & Administrative Items -- taken up [from janina]
17:11:45 <PeterKorn> Janina: spoke w/Judy, Jeanne, Rachael.  Makes sense to talk about conformance vs. compliance.
17:12:20 <janina> - Yes I think it would be valuable to differentiate between conformance and
17:12:20 <janina> compliance. these are very different terms, yet not necessarily well
17:12:20 <janina> understood, and it would be helpful to make that clarification.
17:12:20 <janina> 
17:13:57 <PeterKorn> q+
17:14:25 <PeterKorn> ...exploring how compliance guidance might work could be useful.
17:14:46 <janina> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Current_Glossary_Candidates
17:14:48 <PeterKorn> ...created a page of just the two definitions (conformance & compliance) for us to work with
17:14:50 <shadi> q+ Gregg
17:15:06 <shadi> ack gregg
17:15:17 <janina> ack gr
17:15:35 <PeterKorn> Gregg: question for Judy; did say some to regulators in WCAG 2; we had talked about defining compliance & conformance meant.  Thought that
17:15:48 <PeterKorn> ...might be a general W3C item (defining those words).
17:16:03 <PeterKorn> Janina: did ask that.  "Is it OK to put definitions in the glossary", and she said "sure".
17:16:19 <PeterKorn> Gregg: and for terms that would apply outside of WCAG?
17:16:21 <jeanne> q+ to talk  about definitions
17:16:45 <PeterKorn> Janina: Doesn't feel we should do that.  But can do so for its own documents.  And WAI can then consider adoption across WAI.
17:17:33 <PeterKorn> Gregg: that's great.  Recalls from WCAG 2 timeframe defining such broad terms (not these) wasn't comfortable then.
17:17:59 <PeterKorn> Janina: asked specifically about defining such terms for WCAG 3.  Reply was that this was OK to do now, especially with explicit labeling (such as "exploratory")
17:18:14 <PeterKorn> ...so, look at available definitions and see if we want to tweak them
17:18:30 <PeterKorn> q-
17:18:45 <janina> q?
17:18:57 <jeanne> q-
17:19:22 <PeterKorn> Gregg: "conformance" is usually a section in the standard, vs. being in the glossary.  So putting into the glossary seems odd.
17:19:45 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#conformance
17:19:46 <PeterKorn> Janina: agree there is a section - "how you conform", "how you make claims", "what is in a claim".  Different from definition of term.
17:19:49 <PeterKorn> q+
17:19:50 <JF> Q+
17:20:35 <jeanne> present+
17:20:36 <janina> present+
17:20:40 <Darryl> present+
17:20:42 <GreggVan> Present+
17:20:54 <janina> ack pet
17:21:08 <shadi> Peter: like the idea of putting it in the glossary
17:21:27 <shadi> ...section in itself does not provide the contrast between the two terms
17:21:47 <jeanne> q+ to talk about examples of different buckets of compliance and conformance
17:21:50 <shadi> ...could be described in the section but seems cleaner in the glossary
17:22:07 <shadi> present+
17:22:08 <janina> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cf.
17:22:37 <janina> ack jf
17:23:01 <PeterKorn> JF: very concerned about term "compliance".  Comfortable with "conformance", but "compliance" is legal.  Hesitant to see that term used.
17:23:24 <GreggVan> q+
17:23:27 <janina> ack jea
17:23:27 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to talk about examples of different buckets of compliance and conformance
17:23:29 <PeterKorn> ...Janina said "conformance" to a technical standard.  But if WCAG moves forward with some other things, probably drop the word "technical"
17:23:54 <PeterKorn> Jeanne: Agree w/John.  Don't want to be working in the compliance area.  But point of a definition is to start being able to fence off
17:24:04 <PeterKorn> ...what is conformance vs. compliance.  What are we including, what are we not touching.
17:24:16 <JF> +1 Jeanne
17:24:22 <janina> q?
17:24:34 <PeterKorn> ...too much using these terms interchangeably.  So be able to say - with specific examples - what belongs in conformance vs. compliance (and we aren't touching legal)
17:24:57 <janina> ack gr
17:25:33 <PeterKorn> Gregg: Generally not supposed to define words you aren't using normatively ("compliance").
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17:27:15 <PeterKorn_> present+
17:27:19 <PeterKorn_> I seem to have returned.
17:27:28 <PeterKorn_> scribe: PeterKorn_
17:27:44 <PeterKorn_> Gregg: if we put compliance as note under conformance, it will put them next to each other
17:27:46 <PeterKorn_> q+
17:28:25 <PeterKorn_> ...could then have pointer from "compliance" to the note in conformance.
17:28:37 <jeanne> q+
17:28:39 <janina> q?
17:28:45 <janina> ack pet
17:28:55 <shadi> Peter: would like to repeat what I said earlier
17:28:57 <jeanne> q-
17:29:01 <jeanne> +1 Peter
17:29:13 <shadi> ...let's try it out rather than debate how to do it
17:29:23 <janina> q?
17:29:34 <shadi> ...get into the actual work rather than meta discussions
17:29:37 <PeterKorn_> Janina: we have a draft.  Let's look at actual definitions.
17:29:42 <GreggVan> q+
17:29:55 <GreggVan> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Current_Glossary_Candidates
17:29:55 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Current_Glossary_Candidates#Examples
17:30:26 <PeterKorn_> Gregg: we keep pushing for plain language, so suggest we don't use "cf. compliance"
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17:31:40 <janina> q+
17:31:47 <janina> q?
17:32:37 <PeterKorn_> q+ for "conformance"
17:34:29 <PeterKorn_> Gregg: what do you mean by "cf"?  "In contrast with" or "in contrast to".  "As opposed to"?
17:34:39 <jeanne> +1 "rather than"
17:35:04 <PeterKorn_> ... maybe a separate sentence, like "You conforman to a standard, you comply with a law or regulation"'
17:35:35 <janina> q?
17:35:36 <jeanne> I liked Greggs two sentences - You comply with laws, you conform to standards
17:35:44 <janina> ack gr
17:35:50 <janina> ack pe
17:35:50 <Zakim> PeterKorn_, you wanted to discuss "conformance"
17:36:07 <shadi> Peter: like the idea of a sentence somewhere
17:36:16 <janina> q+
17:36:29 <shadi> ...maybe at the end of compliance say "this is distinct from conformance, see definition below"
17:36:34 <shadi> ...and vice-versa
17:36:50 <shadi> ...also to drop "are said to be" phrases
17:37:19 <shadi> ...not as certain about the inclusion of the Marakesh Treaty
17:37:31 <shadi> ...because it doesn't reference WCAG
17:37:33 <PeterKorn_> q?
17:38:17 <PeterKorn_> Janina: purpose is to be rigorous in our terminology.  Especially in conformance section.
17:38:36 <PeterKorn_> ... and especially what is left to regulatory environments
17:38:48 <Darryl> q+
17:38:55 <PeterKorn_> ...likes having "You conform to a standard, you comply to a regulation" as a note.
17:39:11 <janina> ack ja
17:39:21 <jeanne> q+
17:39:23 <PeterKorn_> ...not going to insist keeping Marrakesh Treaty.  Just wanting to note that those have force of law
17:39:45 <janina> ack da
17:39:54 <PeterKorn_> Darryl: thinks we are heading in right direction.  But losing dichotomy between them.
17:39:55 <shadi> s/Marakesh/Marrakesh
17:40:17 <janina> q?
17:40:27 <janina> ack jea
17:40:28 <PeterKorn_> ... maybe adding the phrase "a standard does not define legal compliance".  Just to further drive home that they are separate.
17:40:54 <PeterKorn_> Jeanne: simplify?  Like Gregg's wording.  Defi. of compliance too complex & a distraction.  Would prefer to see that simpler.
17:41:11 <shadi> +1 to simplifying
17:41:11 <PeterKorn_> ...suggests we go with Gregg's defiitions
17:41:53 <PeterKorn_> Gregg: <reads "POSIBLE ALTERNATE FORMAT" section on wiki page>
17:42:37 <janina> q?
17:42:47 <janina> q+
17:43:03 <JF> +1 to include
17:43:03 <shadi> Peter: "may involve conformance to a standard"?
17:43:16 <shadi> Gregg: or may include
17:43:31 <shadi> Peter: because some laws may have indirections
17:43:38 <shadi> ...like reasonable accommodation
17:43:50 <shadi> ...or alternate ways of complying
17:43:59 <jeanne> q+ to delete sentence on levels
17:44:48 <PeterKorn_> Janina: have a nit - at the top thought I heard "provision" singular.  Confirmed it is plural.
17:44:50 <shadi> q+
17:45:17 <PeterKorn_> ... missing piece: notion that we are definition for our documents; other places (e.g. elsewhere in W3C) may define differently.
17:45:37 <PeterKorn_> q?
17:45:40 <PeterKorn_> q+
17:45:56 <PeterKorn_> Gregg: thinks that is better at the top of the glossary - that the glossary is scoped to WCAG 3.
17:46:19 <janina> q?
17:46:19 <PeterKorn_> q?
17:46:29 <janina> ack ja
17:46:31 <janina> ack jea
17:46:31 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to delete sentence on levels
17:46:37 <maryjom> q+
17:46:54 <PeterKorn_> Jeanne: a little disappointed because it is more complicated to what Gregg said earlier.  "Act of adherence" isn't plain language.
17:47:15 <PeterKorn_> ...also concerned about "different levels of conformance" because the larger group hasn't condensed no that yet.
17:47:33 <janina> ack sh
17:47:46 <PeterKorn_> Shadi: +1 to Jeanne.  Only need the first sentence.
17:47:51 <GreggVan> q+ to say - best format for
17:48:14 <PeterKorn_> ... even if defines different levels, conformance to it means conforming to a level.  So don't need level here.
17:48:43 <shadi> Peter: maybe drop "technical" because some specs are not technical
17:48:47 <janina> q?
17:48:50 <janina> ack pet
17:48:56 <shadi> ...disagree with Shadi, like the second sentence
17:49:07 <shadi> ...because it contrasts with compliance
17:49:20 <PeterKorn_> MaryJo: Q about word "provisions".  Why not just say "requirements"?
17:49:31 <shadi> q+
17:49:50 <janina> ack mar
17:49:53 <janina> ack gr
17:49:53 <Zakim> GreggVan, you wanted to say - best format for
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17:50:17 <shadi> Gregg: removed "technical"
17:50:19 <PeterKorn3> present+
17:50:28 <GreggVan> "all definitions in the glossary are definitions of the terms as used in this document
17:50:37 <shadi> ...added note for top of glossary
17:51:30 <shadi> ...added rest of into a second paragraph
17:52:27 <maryjom> +1
17:52:28 <shadi> ...change provisions to requirements?
17:52:32 <janina> q?
17:52:33 <shadi> Janina: yes
17:52:37 <janina> ack sh
17:52:56 <PeterKorn3> Shadi: could move the bracket "as contrasted..." up into the sentence
17:53:13 <PeterKorn3> ...doesn't have to be an entiry that conforms.  Could be object or group.
17:53:16 <GreggVan> q+
17:53:17 <janina> q?
17:53:18 <JF> Q+
17:53:26 <janina> ack gr
17:53:38 <PeterKorn3> Gregg: parenthetical is supplemental info.  Wouldn't put it into the base statement.
17:54:00 <janina> ack jf
17:54:13 <PeterKorn3> JF: riffing on Shadi.  "Entities" may not be the right direction.  Isn't it the "content that conforms"?
17:54:19 <GreggVan> q+
17:54:35 <PeterKorn3> +1 to that notion
17:54:47 <janina> q+
17:54:51 <janina> ack gr
17:54:56 <PeterKorn3> Gregg: agree with JF.  Helps to separate conformance & compliance.  Content conforms to standard; entity complies with the law.
17:55:11 <jeanne> q+ to say content
17:55:11 <PeterKorn3> ...also helps get people's heads back around.  People don't conform.  Content conforms.
17:55:22 <PeterKorn3> q+
17:57:23 <PeterKorn3> Janina: ask that we look at next agendum.
17:58:31 <PeterKorn3> Zakim, next item
17:58:31 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, PeterKorn3
17:58:37 <janina> q?
17:58:37 <PeterKorn3> q?
17:58:38 <shadi> queue=
17:58:40 <janina> ack ja
17:58:46 <PeterKorn3> Zakim, next item
17:58:46 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Conformance and Compliance Glossary Definitions https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Current_Glossary_Candidates -- taken up [from janina]
17:58:54 <PeterKorn3> Zakim, next item
17:58:54 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, PeterKorn3
17:59:00 <janina> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Deliverables
17:59:09 <jeanne> zakim, take up item 4
17:59:09 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Deliverables Planning https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Deliverables -- taken up [from janina]
18:03:11 <Jemma> Jemma has joined #silver-conf
18:04:27 <janina> zakim, bye
18:04:27 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been maryjom, PeterKorn, JF, shadi, jeanne, janina, Darryl, GreggVan, PeterKorn_
18:04:27 <Zakim> Zakim has left #silver-conf
18:04:32 <janina> rrsagent make minutes
18:05:01 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
18:05:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/09-silver-conf-minutes.html janina