15:06:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-td
15:06:39 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/12/08-wot-td-irc
15:06:48 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
15:06:54 <kaz> chair: Sebastian
15:07:06 <janro> janro has joined #wot-td
15:07:17 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Jan_Romann, Michael_Lagally, Michael_McCool, Sebastian_Kaebisch
15:07:26 <kaz> regrets+ Daniel, Cristiano
15:08:55 <McCool> seb: plan today is to prep for next WD
15:09:09 <McCool> ... want to go over PRs and merge as much as possible
15:09:49 <McCool> ... and then would like to call for review based on the version today, so in two weeks we can make a resolution for the next WD on Dec 22 in the main call
15:10:01 <McCool> ... then look at the binding topics
15:10:15 <McCool> topic: minutes review
15:10:26 <kaz> i/plan today/topic: Agenda/
15:10:58 <kaz> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#Dec_8.2C_2021
15:11:15 <McCool> ... publication plans, name spaces, PRs
15:11:28 <McCool> ... still some open PRs that were not merged, e.g. for OAuth
15:11:31 <kaz> i|publication plans|-> https://www.w3.org/2021/12/01-wot-td-minutes.html Dec-1|
15:11:42 <kaz> s/... pub/seb: pub/
15:11:51 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
15:11:56 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:11:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/08-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:12:04 <McCool> ... also issues about IANA requirement
15:12:15 <McCool> ... removal of TD canonicalization
15:12:32 <kaz> i/plan today is/scribenick: McCool/
15:12:33 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:12:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/08-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:13:04 <McCool> ... note that version just before canonicalization was removed was branched
15:15:39 <McCool> ... then discussed various issues, e.g. TDs with no IP address
15:15:59 <McCool> ... P Blum came up with example that had a dynamic IP
15:17:33 <McCool> mm: I do have a question about how frequently you do this
15:17:59 <McCool> ... if there is a DHCP every few days then re-registering with the directory is not a big deal
15:17:59 <kaz> q+ jan
15:18:02 <kaz> ack j
15:18:20 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
15:18:25 <mlagally___> mlagally___ has joined #wot-td
15:18:27 <mlagally___> q+
15:18:56 <McCool> mm: single base is just a common-case optimization in my opinion btw
15:19:19 <McCool> ml: I do have a question about what to do when there are multiple forms
15:19:37 <McCool> seb: different implementation strategies; node-wot uses the first entry that is supported
15:19:48 <McCool> ... daniel also discussed this in profiles
15:20:13 <McCool> ... other approaches might be to always use the first one
15:20:54 <JKRhb> JKRhb has joined #wot-td
15:21:18 <McCool> ml: why have multiple options then?
15:21:44 <McCool> mm: also a use case with different security schemes; maybe client wants to use oauth rather than passwords
15:22:13 <McCool> ml: if use "first that works" then there needs to be a timeout, etc.
15:22:24 <McCool> seb: these are implementation details...
15:22:40 <McCool> ... can be decided on application side
15:22:52 <McCool> q?
15:22:55 <Ege> q+
15:23:34 <McCool> mm: propose that we discuss this in profiles, not here... TDs allow multiple forms
15:23:39 <kaz> q+ Ege
15:23:48 <kaz> ack ml
15:23:52 <kaz> ack Ege
15:23:56 <McCool> ege: btw, if send request to one, and it does not reply, something wrong
15:24:12 <Ege> ack e
15:24:24 <McCool> mm: is a counter-example to that (cloud/local), but we can talk about it elsewhere
15:24:40 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:24:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/08-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:24:44 <mjk> mjk has joined #wot-td
15:24:49 <kaz> q+
15:25:10 <McCool> seb: issue about diagrams?
15:25:32 <McCool> ... propose we leave them be, to clean them up needs manual work, let's do that for CR only, not for WD
15:25:56 <McCool> ... much easier to update using automatic tools
15:27:27 <McCool> mm: question; if diagrams must be informative, is there any information in a diagram (for example, superclass relations) that are normative but not in the text somewhere?
15:28:40 <kaz> q?
15:28:43 <McCool> ... see conformance section...
15:28:53 <McCool> ... diagrams are informative, technically
15:29:10 <kaz> ack k
15:29:23 <McCool> kaz: suggest we focus on reviewing the minutes for now
15:30:19 <McCool> seb: ok to publish minutes?
15:30:27 <McCool> ... no objections, will be published
15:30:39 <McCool> topic: TD publication plans
15:30:50 <McCool> seb: new WD for Dec
15:31:01 <McCool> ... some PRs today, merge
15:31:44 <McCool> .. resolution on Dec 22
15:34:47 <McCool> mm: wondering if we should suppress "editor's notes"
15:36:30 <mlagally___> scribenick: mlagally
15:36:50 <mlagally___> sk: we have a security issue - add oauth cycle
15:37:00 <kaz> s/mlagally/mlagally___/
15:37:04 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:37:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/08-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:37:17 <mlagally___> mm: one word was changed, unfortunately this changes the meaning
15:37:26 <mlagally___> ... the PR changes that one phrase
15:37:35 <mlagally___> sk: perhaps we fix it in the review phase
15:37:46 <mlagally___> mm: we could merge it and do a cleanup PR
15:38:04 <mlagally___> sk: you should decide, if it has security impact
15:38:05 <kaz> i/we have a s/subtopic: PR 1264/
15:38:26 <mlagally___> mm: go ahead and merge, we will discuss in security next week
15:38:33 <kaz> i|we have a s|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1264 PR 1264 - Fix 948 (add OAuth2 flow examples)|
15:39:32 <kaz> q+
15:40:24 <kaz> ack k
15:40:27 <mlagally___> kaz: we should update the main Wiki and add "cancellations" for next week, if something is cancelled
15:40:45 <mlagally___> mm: we will have the security call next week
15:41:09 <mlagally___> sk: I will assign you Michael, probably Cristiano will take over
15:41:34 <mlagally___> ... we merged, thanks for your work
15:42:30 <mlagally___> sk: #1283: did not have time to work on that
15:42:32 <mlagally___> q+
15:45:01 <kaz> ml: we have multiple level of affordance
15:45:17 <kaz> ... need to provide metadata for actual events
15:45:26 <kaz> ... need some kind of additional metadata
15:45:52 <kaz> ... people tend to think about typical scenarios
15:46:01 <sebastian> q?
15:46:03 <kaz> ... but we need to think about muptole levels
15:46:11 <kaz> s/muptole/multiple/
15:46:33 <kaz> ... related to the Profile discussion
15:46:46 <kaz> sk: (shows example 66)
15:46:53 <kaz> @@@
15:47:02 <kaz> sk: note this is just an example
15:47:42 <kaz> ... to be honest I'm not very happy with this example
15:47:56 <kaz> q?
15:47:59 <kaz> ack ml
15:48:13 <kaz> ek: we could still work on webhook example
15:48:48 <kaz> q+ Ege
15:48:58 <kaz> ml: yeah
15:49:07 <kaz> ... but could be still part of the example
15:49:18 <kaz> ... that's an important sentence
15:49:54 <kaz> ek: certain set of payload is used
15:50:09 <kaz> ... in some protocol, you can get property
15:50:35 <kaz> ... but may be not necessary
15:51:10 <kaz> ... don't think we really need to do this in a prescribe manner
15:51:22 <kaz> i/1283/subtopic: PR 1284/
15:51:40 <kaz> i|1283|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1283 PR 1283 - update webhooks example|
15:52:05 <kaz> ml: you don't know where it came from
15:52:20 <kaz> ek: once the event arrives, can be sorted out
15:52:40 <kaz> ml: let's have discussion during the Profile call
15:53:03 <kaz> q+
15:53:25 <kaz> ack e
15:54:34 <kaz> q?
15:55:15 <kaz> (some more discussion)
15:55:41 <McCool> seb: webhooks/events is a well-known problem
15:55:46 <kaz> s|@@@|-> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1283.html#example-66 example 66|
15:55:50 <McCool> ... this is in an annex area currently
15:55:57 <kaz> i/webhooks/scribenick: McCool/
15:56:05 <McCool> ... if profiles have established an approach, we can add a link here
15:56:23 <kaz> i/we have multiple level/scribenick: kaz/
15:56:46 <McCool> ml: need to leave soon, can we look at arch-related Pr
15:57:11 <McCool> kaz: one question; people are not satisfied with the webhooks PR?
15:57:39 <McCool> seb: it is a little improved; it's not wrong, but it's not straightforward and raises many questions
15:58:04 <McCool> ... but ml had some additional comments to further improve it
15:58:31 <McCool> kaz: strongly suggest we talk about several use cases, what clients, who sends what to whom
15:58:43 <McCool> seb: in general this needs to be deeply discussed
15:59:03 <McCool> kaz: point not only how, but what and why
15:59:44 <McCool> seb: TD wants to be generic, focusing on one approach disallows other approaches
16:00:15 <McCool> ... but a drawback is we don't have useful details
16:00:25 <McCool> q+
16:00:31 <kaz> ack k
16:00:39 <kaz> ack mc
16:01:30 <kaz> q+ lagally
16:01:33 <kaz> ack l
16:02:56 <kaz> mm: clear definition of protocols and usage to be indicated
16:03:05 <kaz> ... ideally by the TD spec itself
16:03:21 <kaz> sk: potentially by the Binding Templates doc
16:03:28 <kaz> q?
16:03:37 <McCool> mm: think we should use subprotocols here; specific ways and details for how to handle events
16:04:01 <kaz> i/clear/scribenick: kaz/
16:04:26 <McCool> seb: there is also a comment from ege
16:04:50 <McCool> ... the link refers to the entire protocol binding doc, not a particular section
16:06:27 <kaz> i/think we/scribenick: McCool/
16:06:54 <McCool> mm: or rather, to an entire section, not just the part about the URI scheme
16:06:56 <kaz> i/clear definition of/subtopic: PR 1301/
16:07:35 <kaz> i|clear definition of|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1301 PR 1301 - update Section 8.3|
16:07:56 <McCool> ... could add an id to the given paragraph, but frankly not that long, so
16:08:15 <kaz> q+
16:08:17 <McCool> seb: we could also add a new column in the table for the URI scheme
16:08:35 <McCool> ... in section 4.1
16:09:14 <kaz> q+ Ege
16:09:34 <kaz> ack e
16:09:36 <McCool> ege: perhaps we should merge and create an issue to clean this up, and ask ml to comment
16:09:48 <McCool> see issue #1301
16:11:03 <McCool> kaz: wondering about relationship between 8.3 and the binding templates doc
16:11:14 <McCool> ... similar to problem in arch document
16:12:47 <McCool> seb: I think 8.3.1 probably should be moved to binding documen
16:13:04 <McCool> ... it was there in TD1.0 because binding doc was not complete
16:13:16 <McCool> ... but now it is, so... we can move this out
16:13:59 <McCool> kaz: we need to think about current status being normative
16:14:16 <kaz> s/think/re-think/
16:14:19 <McCool> mm: one issue is the use of default values
16:15:33 <McCool> ege: to understand, idea was to move these examples to the HTTP protocol binding doc
16:15:46 <McCool> seb: kaz mentioned we should be careful to avoid redundancy
16:16:06 <McCool> ege: we talked two or three weeks about this
16:16:19 <McCool> seb: I think we proposed moving this section
16:16:25 <McCool> ... issue #1274
16:17:28 <kaz> q+
16:17:38 <McCool> ege: also, already in TD 1.0, so if we remove it does it cause a compatibilty problem
16:18:14 <McCool> kaz: as we have been discussing in arch, we should clarify what is in normative TD doc vs. informative protocol binding doc
16:18:54 <kaz> ack k
16:19:25 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:19:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/08-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:19:36 <McCool> seb: so should we merge this?
16:19:41 <kaz> q+
16:20:18 <McCool> kaz: think we can merge it if would be helpful for structuring discussion
16:20:49 <McCool> seb: it does help with arch statement regarding URI schemes
16:21:44 <McCool> ... (comments added to issue #1274)
16:22:41 <McCool> ... need to double-check with ml
16:23:00 <McCool> kaz: suggest we merge, can deal with as review
16:23:05 <McCool> seb: ok, will merge
16:23:25 <McCool> topic:PR #1309
16:23:51 <McCool> seb: just added another level of subsections to make things easier to navigate
16:24:05 <McCool> ... in examples
16:24:23 <McCool> ... that way people can jump directly to a section that addresses their interest
16:24:58 <McCool> mm: concur that this is good and needed
16:25:37 <kaz> s/suggest we merge, can deal with as review/We can merge this PR if Lagally is also OK. It seems to me Lagally is already starting the structural relationship discussion by his comments. So I thin we can merge this but should start the structural relationship right away./
16:26:10 <kaz> i|just added|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1309 PR 1309 - New sub-sections to improve reading in Section 6.3|
16:26:47 <McCool> seb: unfortunately looks like there were some conflicts
16:28:14 <McCool> ... (resolves)
16:28:20 <McCool> ... (merges)
16:28:36 <McCool> topic: PR #1315
16:28:48 <McCool> seb: from ege, additional urivariables example
16:29:30 <McCool> ... examples using query parameters, etc.
16:30:11 <McCool> ... so have both direct URL modification and another one for queries
16:30:32 <McCool> seb: looks like you forgot the render
16:30:43 <McCool> ... please run render quickly
16:31:07 <McCool> topic: PR #1320
16:33:01 <McCool> mm: only one ednote left, relates to tags for validation
16:33:18 <McCool> ... also, they are just commented out, we can revert them easily
16:33:32 <McCool> topic: PR #1317
16:33:42 <McCool> ege: not ready to merge yet
16:34:24 <kaz> i|not ready|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1317 PR 1317 - Adding id to tables|
16:34:33 <McCool> ... added ids to tables, like examples, so can link to them
16:34:43 <McCool> ... but complicated since some tables are autogenerated
16:35:30 <McCool> mm: this is purely editorial, we can skip it for now
16:35:47 <McCool> seb: we could also use captions, put links there
16:36:29 <McCool> ege: ideally respec would do this for us
16:36:38 <kaz> q+
16:37:40 <McCool> kaz: if this capability should be in respec, you should specify behaviour and ask respec team
16:38:03 <McCool> topic: PR #1318
16:38:17 <McCool> seb: new namespaces for TD 1.1
16:38:19 <kaz> ack k
16:38:27 <McCool> ... see also #1276
16:39:07 <McCool> ... we discussed various options, and had a consensus, and also got ok from PLH
16:39:36 <McCool> ... also discussed omitting the date, but this is not aligned with our 1.0 namespace
16:39:45 <McCool> ... and we should use the same pattern
16:39:45 <kaz> i|new name|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1276 Issue 1276 - New TD 1.1 namespace IRI|
16:40:01 <McCool> ... MAYBE for 2.0 we can go to a pattern without the year
16:40:11 <McCool> ... avoids having things look outdated
16:42:07 <McCool> ... be aware there is a distinction between context and ontology files
16:42:36 <McCool> ... change context namespace only, not ontology namespace
16:42:40 <kaz> q?
16:42:42 <kaz> q+
16:42:48 <kaz> q+ Ege
16:42:51 <kaz> ack e
16:43:03 <McCool> ege: somewhere in the text we say the context should be such and such, as opposed to in a table
16:43:19 <McCool> seb: know what you mean, I think I covered that
16:43:27 <McCool> ege: some were informative, e.g. in examples
16:43:47 <McCool> seb: did update all the examples
16:44:11 <McCool> ... let me check the source code
16:45:51 <McCool> ege: actually, check index.html because might have come from an ontology file
16:45:55 <McCool> ... or look at the rendering
16:46:37 <McCool> seb: found a problem, in section 5.3.1
16:46:54 <McCool> after table, context url is mentioned explicitly, needs to be updated
16:48:41 <kaz> s/after/... after/
16:49:27 <McCool> ... ok, now fixed
16:50:06 <kaz> q?
16:50:46 <kaz> ack k
16:50:47 <McCool> kaz: ok with this PR, but we should clarify location of ontologies files, what redirections we have to set up, etc
16:52:08 <McCool> topic: PR #1319
16:52:16 <McCool> seb: brand new
16:52:24 <McCool> ege: about validation schema
16:52:33 <McCool> seb: so not ready to merge yet
16:52:48 <McCool> topic: PR #1315
16:52:58 <McCool> ege: finished, pushing noew
16:53:05 <McCool> s/noew/now/
16:53:20 <McCool> ... adding more uriexamples, but now fixed
16:53:35 <kaz> i|brand|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1319 PR 1319 - Make forms inherited from a base form|
16:53:52 <McCool> seb: looks good, let's merge
16:54:05 <McCool> ... (merged)
16:54:10 <kaz> i|finished|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1315 PR 1315 - add more urivariables examples|
16:54:25 <McCool> topic: other PRs
16:54:56 <McCool> seb: remaining PRs do not seem critical, WIP or do not affect spec directly (validation schemas, etc).
16:55:16 <McCool> topic: WD/Review Readiness
16:55:28 <McCool> seb: are we ready to start review?
16:56:59 <McCool> mm: can still do editorial changes in the next couple of weeks, but should avoid major changes
16:57:11 <McCool> ... also I think good to have a resolution
16:58:11 <sebastian> proposal: the group decided to strat the review process based on the lates editor draft that can be found here: https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description After two weeks there will be decided if the version will be published as a second WD.
16:59:52 <kaz> s/lates /latest /
17:00:20 <kaz> q?
17:00:39 <sebastian> resolution: the group decided to start the internal review process based on the latest editor draft that can be found here: https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description After two weeks it will be decided if this version will be published as a second WD.
17:01:02 <McCool> seb: please read the doc carefully
17:03:11 <kaz> [adjourned]
17:03:15 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:03:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/08-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
17:24:26 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #wot-td
17:25:23 <sebastia_> sebastia_ has joined #wot-td