16:56:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webdriver
16:56:57 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/12/08-webdriver-irc
16:57:05 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make logs public
16:58:29 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes
16:58:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/08-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
16:58:41 <jgraham> Meeting: WebDriver
16:58:47 <jgraham> Chair: AutomatedTester
16:58:59 <jgraham> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2021-12-BiDi#Agenda
16:59:14 <jgraham> ScribeNick: AutomatedTester
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17:01:28 <jgraham> present+
17:02:35 <foolip> The meeting has not started?
17:02:44 <brwalder> doesn't look like it
17:02:58 <whimboo> david mighth not be around yet
17:04:14 <foolip> jgraham: I think I'll need to bail after not too long, in case you want to front load anything you'd expect me to have useful feedback on.
17:04:32 <foolip> present+
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17:04:49 <jdescottes> present+
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17:05:24 <s3ththompson> present+
17:05:29 <mzgoddard> present+
17:06:08 <AutomatedTester> topic: ARIA-AT Automation API
17:07:04 <AutomatedTester> s3thThompson: Hi every, I am a product manager at Bocoup
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17:07:23 <s3ththompson> https://aria-at.w3.org/
17:07:36 <jimevans> present+
17:07:41 <AutomatedTester> ... ARIA-AT is a CG project to help wit
17:07:50 <AutomatedTester> ... the automation is a11y tools
17:08:19 <AutomatedTester> ... we have written a large set of manual test on how screen readers should work
17:08:30 <AutomatedTester> ... and we would like to automate as much as possible here
17:08:49 <AutomatedTester> ... and we want to see if we can have a "screen reader driver"
17:09:13 <AutomatedTester> ... we have created ways to do interactions and voice capture from the readers
17:09:48 <AutomatedTester> ... but we want to do is get screenreader vendors to join and help with making interop better
17:09:55 <Patrick_Angle_> Patrick_Angle_ has joined #webdriver
17:10:16 <AutomatedTester> ... this project is focused on conformance and interop testing
17:10:29 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:11:14 <AutomatedTester> ... What we wanted to share quickly is an API explainer
17:11:23 <AutomatedTester> ... and what the scope of the AT Driver could be
17:12:09 <s3ththompson> https://github.com/bocoup/aria-at-automation
17:13:10 <AutomatedTester> zcorpan: As Seth has said, the use case is to automate screenreader testing to help screenreader vendors can make sure that things work
17:14:01 <AutomatedTester> ... [discusses the states that it would need to hook into]
17:14:35 <AutomatedTester> ... and we don't want to duplicate things that webdriver can already do
17:15:55 <AutomatedTester> ... and we want to be simulating, at an OS level, interactions and other capabilities going.
17:16:27 <AutomatedTester> ... at now, this is just an explainer, and if there is multivendor interest to make sure this standardised
17:16:28 <jgraham> q+
17:16:38 <AutomatedTester> q+
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17:17:17 <simonstewart> present+
17:17:49 <AutomatedTester> jugglingmike: Simon has already convered most of the things I wanted to discuss
17:18:15 <AutomatedTester> ... and we have a lot of experience with webdriver and can some cross over
17:18:31 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
17:19:02 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I glanced over the explainer and there are a few things
17:20:04 <AutomatedTester> jugglingmike: The tool we are making is focused around a websocket and we haven't got the whole creation sorted
17:20:30 <AutomatedTester> ... we are watching the webdriver-bidi spec with interest
17:20:45 <foolip> q+
17:20:55 <AutomatedTester> ack automatedtester
17:21:46 <AutomatedTester> automatedtester: What's the difference between this and AOM and since AOM was supposed to be allowing programmatically access to the browser
17:22:18 <AutomatedTester> zcorpan: AOM is only about the a11y stack and we want to test everything, including the OS level
17:22:53 <zcorpan> s/the a11y stack/the browser-level part of the a11y stack/
17:23:14 <AutomatedTester> jugglingmike: I can imagine ARIA-AT doing a good enough job we might not need worry about the variation between tools
17:23:18 <zcorpan> s/OS level/OS level and what the screen reader actually says/
17:23:48 <AutomatedTester> ... there is a lot of leeway around what verbage that screenreaders can use
17:24:44 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:24:53 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
17:25:45 <AutomatedTester> foolip: Simon, you asked if there was multiple vendor interest. WHat do we need for that? What's the role of Browser Vendors here?
17:26:46 <AutomatedTester> zcorpan: The screenreader and the browser are going to be run together in an OS and we are going to need a number of people here. The most affected vendor is the screenreader vendors and to make sure that we have stronger signals of interest from them
17:26:58 <AutomatedTester> ... but we still need browser vendors interested too
17:27:25 <AutomatedTester> foolip: Do we need browsers to change anything or just prioritise the bugs that are likely to come out of this.
17:27:49 <AutomatedTester> zcorpan: I don't think tha tbrowser vendors are missing capabilities right now to get things started
17:27:58 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:28:20 <foolip> My question sounded rather skeptical, so I want to say this seems like a reasonable approach, hope it works!
17:29:17 <AutomatedTester> automatedtester: What is the ask of this group that we can help with?
17:29:33 <AutomatedTester> zcorpan: we have a few questions so Mike, can you help?
17:30:30 <AutomatedTester> jugglingmike: we keep talking about keypresses. One thing that we can maybe see if there was a way that we can get proper OS events
17:30:36 <simonstewart> q+
17:30:39 <jgraham> q+
17:30:43 <AutomatedTester> ... and then there are session capabilities
17:31:17 <AutomatedTester> ... [discusses different binaries and window and sessions and how they can map together]
17:31:48 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:31:57 <AutomatedTester> ack simonstewart
17:32:50 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: re: keypress at OS level. We tried to get there as close as possible but it's described as best we can in W3C language.
17:33:57 <AutomatedTester> ... the concept about about session. We created sessions the way we did so we can better utilise computer resourses so people can have a lot of tests running on parallel on a single machine
17:34:21 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:34:27 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
17:34:37 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: re keypress
17:35:05 <AutomatedTester> ... the way  that things are currently done in the browser event loop instead of the OS event loop
17:35:24 <AutomatedTester> ... we have sandboxed and it's going to be scary for browsers to change t
17:36:05 <AutomatedTester> ... and sessions: there is a bit of state around a session that needs to be maintained
17:36:32 <AutomatedTester> ... and it makes sense to do what you said
17:36:40 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:37:55 <AutomatedTester> s3ththompson: This has been useful and it would be great if people can read this
17:39:41 <AutomatedTester> topic: Communication channel from page scripts to the automation client.
17:39:53 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/157
17:40:33 <AutomatedTester> sadym: The first topic wanted to discuss was around what James brought up around the comms channel
17:40:47 <AutomatedTester> ... there is an example in the discussion linked
17:41:24 <jgraham> q+
17:41:26 <AutomatedTester> ... [discusses the example] and James had some ideas that I liked
17:41:31 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
17:42:15 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: To put this into context, we discussed to have a sandbox value and [discusses generation of custom events]
17:42:44 <AutomatedTester> ... this would an alternative to the other way as we can have a callback that is called
17:43:06 <AutomatedTester> ... this will be simpler from spec prose as we don't have to get webidl to do things it doesnt' normally do
17:44:03 <AutomatedTester> ... one concern that could be there is "what happens to scripts that are loaded on page load". It's not going to be impossible just going to be "fun"
17:44:27 <AutomatedTester> ... I will write on the issue for deeper discussion
17:44:29 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:44:55 <AutomatedTester> topic: Discussion: need in browsingContext.findElement command
17:45:05 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/150
17:45:05 <jgraham> If people have concerns about that model it would help to post them on the issue
17:45:18 <jgraham> I think we're likely to get a PR soon
17:45:39 <simonstewart> That looks like it's based on https://chromedevtools.github.io/devtools-protocol/tot/Runtime/#method-addBinding, right?
17:46:29 <AutomatedTester> sadym: apparently in Selenium, we have a number of ways to find element but these can be done via script eval
17:46:39 <AutomatedTester> .... do we really need a find element moving forward
17:46:52 <jgraham> simonstewart: it's a different approach to the same problem, you do callFunction(function, args=[callback]) and whenever the remote end calls callback it generates an event with the arguments
17:47:16 <simonstewart> q+
17:47:34 <jgraham> q+
17:47:55 <AutomatedTester> automatedtester: What would happen on things like closed shadow dom ?
17:48:13 <AutomatedTester> sadym: It probably doesn't cover the shadow dom when it's closed
17:48:58 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I disagree, we can return a shadow root value to the element and then just go down that way
17:49:44 <jgraham> q-
17:49:58 <AutomatedTester> ack simonstewart
17:50:34 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: the thing that findelement gives us separation of concerns
17:50:48 <AutomatedTester> ... and in clients we can get people building their own locator types
17:50:59 <AutomatedTester> ... e.g. FindElementByARIA
17:52:18 <AutomatedTester> ... separating the interface is generally good design and we can have people return element ID to be passed into other things later on
17:52:22 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:52:30 <jgraham> I note again that closed shadow roots should work with the script execution approach :)
17:52:45 <simonstewart> I was looking for an example that might work :)
17:52:52 <simonstewart> Point noted, jgraham!
17:53:54 <AutomatedTester> topic: Remote Object Lifecycle
17:53:55 <AutomatedTester> git
17:54:08 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/90
17:54:44 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: We now have the ability to execute script and return references to objects that are owned but the ecmascript engine
17:55:16 <AutomatedTester> ... at the moment, the way the spec if writen and you return an array we return a reference to it
17:55:56 <AutomatedTester> ... and if that is GC'ed then when we try access them then this could problems as things could be thrown away
17:56:36 <simonstewart> q+
17:56:53 <AutomatedTester> ... we have can have strong referenced  that is associated to the global so that as long as the global exists then that's fine
17:57:11 <AutomatedTester> ... or we have strong reference to root objects and weakmaps for the rest
17:57:33 <AutomatedTester> ... or the CDP way of object groups
17:58:34 <AutomatedTester> ... I have written up a comment on this
17:58:46 <AutomatedTester> ... Please can people read through this and write it up in the issue
17:58:48 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:59:08 <AutomatedTester> ack simonstewart
17:59:44 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: we need to make sure we think about clients that are written without GC in mind when doing the work here
18:02:00 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes
18:02:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/08-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
18:02:04 <jgraham> RRSAgent: stop