14:01:44 RRSAgent has joined #silver-reliability 14:01:47 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/12/07-silver-reliability-irc 14:01:47 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:01:48 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Wilco 14:05:36 jeanne has joined #silver-reliability 14:06:08 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/testable-outcomes-2021-12-2/results 14:06:59 Francis_Storr has joined #silver-reliability 14:07:11 dmontalvo has joined #silver-reliability 14:07:12 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/testable-outcomes-2021-12-2/results 14:07:26 TOPIC: AG feedback on testable outcomes 14:08:17 Jeanne: We can address Andrew's comment, to be developed on creating a representative sample. 14:08:49 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1onytB133NRc1EXEOVPizcOqeTi70r2JUcba-LgUyKEY/edit# 14:08:50 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sugAtqie_x1XqHDZo1Im7ftDNllWeRV_ty4PULeoTV0/edit#heading=h.q6kvhdps0qv4 14:10:31 Wilco: Don't think sampling should go into this document 14:10:41 Jeanne: Alright, just want to provide an answer. 14:11:07 Wilco: Andrew's not in AG often, so maybe a response in the survey is a good idea. 14:11:31 Jeanne: I'll edit my comment to include a response. 14:12:45 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/testable-outcomes-2021-12-2/?login 14:14:40 Jeanne: What to respond to Mary Jo? 14:15:15 ... I always thought these should be clarifications rather than definitions. 14:15:43 Wilco: Not sure that works. It's still a definition, even if we call it something else. 14:15:57 Jeanne: You can say "in this application, we mean this" 14:16:27 ... Everyone has its own definition of heading. We can constrain what we mean by heading. 14:16:58 Wilco: I prefer to use qualifiers with that "semantic heading" rather than "heading". 14:17:37 Jeanne: The definitions are always really useful when they are narrow, and have examples 14:18:09 Francis: Before you do anything, you need to define what you're talking about. 14:18:30 ... having definitions, understanding what they are is super useful and important. 14:18:47 ... Otherwise we'll end up in WCAG 2 territory, arguing what a focus is, or what a border is. 14:19:02 ... They can be tedious to write, but getting it tied down is really useful. 14:20:12 Jeanne: There is a WAI subgroup working on a glossary. 14:21:54 Wilco: I don't think we need to worry about it too much, as we can change the definition term without changing the definition. 14:23:19 Jeanne: So research existing definitions 14:28:35 Wilco: We already have a sentence saying not to use definitions from existing standards. Should we add a list of standards? 14:28:39 Jeanne: Yes, I'll work on that. 14:28:44 TOPIC: Programmatic language 14:29:49 Francis: I reached out Jason for answers. He didn't know the answers to our questions, nor did he know anyone who could. 14:30:44 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1onytB133NRc1EXEOVPizcOqeTi70r2JUcba-LgUyKEY/edit#heading=h.tzevktxuu3xm 14:32:06 Francis: Some questions, when is a word widely enough adopted in a language to no longer need a lang attribute. 14:32:41 Daniel: Most people tend to prefer not to change language unless you're bilingual. Once a word is established, people feel okay. 14:33:02 Francis: In terms of scoring, is this down to the auditor? 14:34:09 Daniel: It's not just whether it is acceptable or not. It's not a very big issue. People can live with these kinds of things. 14:34:27 ... Where do we set the boundary on what is and isn't acceptable. What's good in one community might not be for others. 14:34:41 ... This might be an issue, if there are words that are not recognisable. 14:36:11 Wilco: Just to put it out there, is it actually an issue if individual words do not have a lang attribute? 14:38:44 Wilco: Do we have an example of a sentence with one word of another language, that we know for sure needs that lang attribute, or it will be a problem. 14:39:05 ... Words that have different meanings in different languages? 14:39:10 Francis: yes 14:40:32 Wilco: Better assistive technologies can make this outcome obsolete 14:41:21 Daniel: Most of the time people prefer the weird pronunciations, rather than the dictionary pronunciations. 14:42:33 Wilco: So should WCAG 3 have a programmatic language outcome? 14:43:20 Daniel: There is a case, for example the browser local is different from the language of the screen reader. 14:43:55 ... That's an issue, if the page doesn't have a language, there is a guess. It goes to the default language, you may be forced to change the screen reader. 14:44:24 Jeanne: What about if you have a large chunk of text, a paragraph in a different language. Wouldn't a language change be appropriate then? 14:45:11 Daniel: Yes, I speak a little French, for that it would be. 14:45:45 ... When it comes to longer texts, there it's more of an issue. 14:46:00 Jeanne: It would certainly be easier if we moved away from individual words. 14:48:45 ... One way we could address this is to have a method for screen readers, and say they have to do language detection. 14:50:11 ... Makoto felt it important to include things to do for screen readers. 14:51:55 Wilco: It doesn't have to be screen reader, it can be the browser, or an extension in the browser. 15:00:31 zakim, end meeting 15:00:31 As of this point the attendees have been (no one) 15:00:32 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 15:00:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/07-silver-reliability-minutes.html Zakim 15:00:37 I am happy to have been of service, Wilco; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 15:00:41 Zakim has left #silver-reliability 16:24:55 Francis_Storr has joined #silver-reliability