IRC log of silver-conf on 2021-12-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/12/02-silver-conf-irc

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16:20:36 [janina_]

Meeting: Silver Conformance Options Subgroup

16:20:42 [janina_]

Date: 02 Dec 2021

16:20:46 [janina_]

Chair: Janina

16:20:52 [janina_]

rrsagent, make log public

16:20:57 [janina_]

agenda?

16:21:02 [janina_]

Agenda+ Agenda Review & Administrative Items

16:21:02 [janina_]

agenda+ Advancing Conformance and Compliance Glossary Definitions https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Conformance_Glossary_Candidates

16:21:05 [janina_]

agenda+ Followup re Shadi's and Gregg's proposals

16:21:07 [janina_]

agenda+ Sampling & Reporting -- Use Cases https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YgiOg3CZz-LAVxRT0CWUTWHzyVa3UrjqdU4NvoyUZ_8/

16:21:10 [janina_]

agenda+ Other Business

16:21:13 [janina_]

agenda+ Be Done

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17:00:12 [shadi]

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17:01:36 [Azlan]

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17:01:45 [Azlan]

present+

17:02:15 [shadi]

present+

17:02:34 [GreggVan]

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17:02:57 [shadi]

scribe: shadi

17:03:02 [GreggVan]

present+

17:03:35 [ToddL]

present+

17:03:46 [Darryl]

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17:03:50 [shadi]

agenda?

17:04:02 [PeterKorn]

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17:04:11 [maryjom]

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17:04:11 [PeterKorn]

present+

17:04:14 [shadi]

zakim, take up next

17:04:14 [Zakim]

agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Administrative Items -- taken up [from janina_]

17:04:16 [maryjom]

present+

17:04:43 [shadi]

JS: meeting next week and the week after, then end-of-year break

17:06:51 [shadi]

Jeanne: will speak tomorrow about Friday call plans

17:06:54 [shadi]

zakim, take up next

17:06:54 [Zakim]

agendum 2 -- Advancing Conformance and Compliance Glossary Definitions https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Conformance_Glossary_Candidates -- taken up [from janina_]

17:07:50 [shadi]

Janina: emphasis on conformance and compliance

17:08:22 [shadi]

...seems AGWG chairs had plans to discuss definition of conformance

17:08:35 [shadi]

...might be good to introduce compliance too

17:08:43 [GreggVan]

q+

17:08:46 [shadi]

...and use consistently in all WCAG documents

17:09:15 [shadi]

...which may help better address our thoughts

17:09:40 [Wilco]

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17:09:45 [janina_]

q?

17:09:45 [shadi]

...are we ready with these terms?

17:09:46 [Wilco]

present+

17:09:52 [janina_]

ack GreggVan

17:09:56 [shadi]

...or maybe add "exploratory" tag to any?

17:10:32 [shadi]

Gregg: don't comply with a standard, you comply with a law

17:10:52 [janina_]

q?

17:10:57 [janina_]

q+

17:11:15 [shadi]

...except 508, which is a regulation that includes its own standards

17:11:34 [shadi]

...other regulations have separate standard

17:11:45 [PeterKorn]

q+

17:12:27 [GreggVan]

q+

17:12:32 [shadi]

Janina: sometimes need to distinguish exactly that aspect

17:12:48 [shadi]

...for example to set out considerations for policy makers

17:13:02 [shadi]

...might simplify what we put in our conformance standard

17:13:25 [shadi]

ack janina_

17:13:32 [shadi]

ack GreggVan

17:13:42 [shadi]

Gregg: understood, makes sense

17:13:55 [janina_]

q?

17:14:09 [Darryl]

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17:15:10 [Azlan]

shadi: At the time didn't specifically have the glossary in mind but the other document may include considerations for laws. This sets it out more clearly.

17:15:14 [janina_]

ack pet

17:15:53 [Wilco]

q+

17:15:57 [shadi]

Peter: if not comfortable as own term for now, could bring it into the conformance section and add the term there

17:16:31 [janina_]

q?

17:16:36 [Azlan]

+1 to PeterKorn's statement

17:17:08 [shadi]

Jeanne: noticed in AGWG that Judy said she didn't want to see some terms defined

17:17:23 [shadi]

...maybe this is one of them

17:17:31 [shadi]

Janina: don't recall that

17:17:36 [shadi]

Wilco: me too

17:17:41 [janina_]

ack gr

17:17:58 [maryjom]

q+

17:18:22 [shadi]

Gregg: think was about narrow definition and overlaps with other areas

17:18:36 [shadi]

...but could also consider Understanding documents or such

17:18:53 [shadi]

...as long as we do not overstep into defining other space

17:19:04 [shadi]

...can define it for ourselves for now

17:19:44 [shadi]

Janina: there is an effort to look through all definitions

17:20:38 [shadi]

Wilco: think AGWG was discussing technologies

17:20:56 [shadi]

...reluctant to have definition of a term we don't use

17:21:15 [shadi]

...like Peter's suggestion of working it into the text

17:21:33 [shadi]

...also not very clear why we are having this conversation

17:21:39 [shadi]

...and who benefits

17:21:48 [PeterKorn]

Also w.r.t. a glossy entry for "Conformance", another route is to define "Conformance to WCAG" - a more narrow task that need not bleed over to other W3C specs.

17:21:54 [shadi]

Janina: think it may help untangle things

17:22:11 [GreggVan]

q+

17:22:26 [Wilco]

ack w

17:23:06 [shadi]

MaryJo: also have concern with some of the terms we are defining

17:23:15 [shadi]

...may exist in other standards already

17:23:24 [shadi]

...need to harmonize across standards

17:23:27 [GreggVan]

Q+ to say "defs are normative - so agree with Wilco" "Good to have them somewhere because it allow us to place issues - ideas someplace rather than say "out of scope".

17:24:17 [shadi]

...not very sure about "Substantial Refresh"

17:24:26 [janina_]

Google Doc is at: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MDW5ja90OVuCSbirmOLfKcnHdgEKOUvqFy5icPwGsdY/edit?usp=sharing

17:24:29 [janina_]

HTML version is at https://www.w3.org/2021/09/draft-wai-glossary

17:24:32 [janina_]

17:24:38 [shadi]

Janina: only considering "Conformance" and "Compliance" for now

17:25:03 [shadi]

MaryJo: agree with this, I see people using them interchangeably

17:25:17 [janina_]

q?

17:25:21 [shadi]

Janina: that's exactly the intend, to get clearer on these two terms

17:26:05 [janina_]

ack mar

17:26:08 [janina_]

ack gr

17:26:08 [Zakim]

GreggVan, you wanted to say "defs are normative - so agree with Wilco" "Good to have them somewhere because it allow us to place issues - ideas someplace rather than say "out

17:26:11 [Zakim]

... of scope".

17:26:39 [shadi]

Gregg: definitions are normative and also only for terms used normatively

17:26:42 [janina_]

q+

17:27:15 [shadi]

...agree there is confusion in this space

17:27:20 [janina_]

q?

17:27:28 [shadi]

...maybe need a separate document, to explain the two

17:28:28 [shadi]

...another reasons to consider this, is because we sometimes say "this is for policy makers"

17:28:43 [shadi]

...which sounds like "not our job" or so, which is not the intent

17:29:00 [shadi]

...may make it easier to describe these parts

17:29:35 [shadi]

Janina: I like dictionaries, there is an art to it

17:30:21 [PeterKorn]

q?

17:30:24 [PeterKorn]

q+

17:30:53 [Wilco]

I'm hesitant, but won't object to adding it as a definition

17:30:59 [shadi]

...concerned that if we throw it into the Glossary, it would become part of the WAI-wide glossary

17:31:33 [GreggVan]

q+

17:31:37 [shadi]

...first question, is it useful to make this distinction?

17:31:46 [shadi]

...does it help advance our standard

17:32:06 [shadi]

q+

17:32:39 [janina_]

q?

17:32:43 [janina_]

ack jan

17:32:45 [janina_]

ack pet

17:32:48 [GreggVan]

q+ to say "I'm ok with that as long as you talk to Judy first" and " I think we should stop discussion here until after checking with Judy"

17:33:20 [janina_]

q?

17:33:26 [shadi]

Peter: I don't think we spent enough time within our group to move it forward

17:33:36 [shadi]

...also not as experimental

17:34:00 [janina_]

ack gr

17:34:00 [Zakim]

GreggVan, you wanted to say "I'm ok with that as long as you talk to Judy first" and " I think we should stop discussion here until after checking with Judy"

17:34:24 [shadi]

Gregg: ^^^

17:35:07 [shadi]

...also agree with Peter that we need to first vet within our group

17:36:03 [shadi]

Janina: agree with holding this for now

17:37:06 [janina_]

q?

17:37:34 [shadi]

Jeanne: thought this may be coming back next week?

17:37:48 [shadi]

Janina: not sure, I may have misread

17:38:08 [janina_]

q?

17:38:18 [shadi]

Wilco: my impression was also not necessarily next week

17:38:26 [shadi]

...it was until this group is ready

17:38:50 [PeterKorn]

q?

17:38:58 [shadi]

Jeanne: could discuss tomorrow in Silver

17:39:03 [shadi]

Janina: we could

17:39:19 [janina_]

ack shad

17:41:12 [Azlan]

shadi: we should agree on these examples and then we can cross the bridge when we get there. We don't know if we will use these terms.

17:41:50 [janina_]

q?

17:41:59 [shadi]

Janina: will check on red flags with Judy and others

17:43:06 [shadi]

...should be bring to Silver TF tomorrow?

17:43:25 [shadi]

[prefer not from several attendees]

17:43:28 [shadi]

zakim, take up next

17:43:28 [Zakim]

agendum 3 -- Followup re Shadi's and Gregg's proposals -- taken up [from janina_]

17:43:52 [shadi]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Substantial_Conformance/Example_Scenarios

17:45:11 [janina_]

q?

17:45:46 [GreggVan]

q+

17:46:16 [Azlan]

shadi: when discussed, the examples were present but not the subsections role of the technical standard and role of the accessibility policy. This intends to bring together the challenges discussed previously and the considerations required to address these things.

17:46:48 [GreggVan]

q+ to say "Technical is to define what is accessible or not. Policy is to define when it needs to be applied and how and if exceptions -- as well as "equiv facilitation".

17:47:18 [Azlan]

shadi: Some overlap with what GreggVan has been looking at

17:48:23 [Azlan]

janina_: the most successful way is to take time in the meeting

17:48:56 [janina_]

ack gr

17:48:56 [Zakim]

GreggVan, you wanted to say "Technical is to define what is accessible or not. Policy is to define when it needs to be applied and how and if exceptions -- as well as

17:48:59 [Azlan]

ack GreggVan

17:49:00 [Zakim]

... "equiv facilitation".

17:49:32 [PeterKorn]

q+

17:49:38 [Azlan]

GreggVan: suggest to vote in next meeting

17:51:02 [Azlan]

GreggVan: definitions are in the right direction. "Levels of or minimum accessibility". Policy determines which rule to meet. Facilitation refers to techniques.

17:51:16 [Azlan]

ack PeterKorn

17:51:27 [janina_]

ack pet

17:51:52 [Azlan]

PeterKorn: Should policy and accessibility exist up at the top vs per example?

17:52:01 [Azlan]

GreggVan: Yes to global scope

17:52:48 [janina_]

q?

17:52:54 [janina_]

q+

17:53:24 [Azlan]

PeterKorn: agrees with the way the document sets our technical vs policy. Would be great to bring to AGWG requests thoughts beyond a "vehicle" to gain understanding from AGWG - where does this go?

17:53:39 [GreggVan]

q+ to say "this item with examples is great. we need to have more arguments done with examples - they really help with understanding."

17:53:52 [Azlan]

ack janina_

17:54:11 [janina_]

q?

17:54:15 [janina_]

ack gr

17:54:15 [Zakim]

GreggVan, you wanted to say "this item with examples is great. we need to have more arguments done with examples - they really help with understanding."

17:55:04 [janina_]

q?

17:55:14 [Azlan]

GreggVan: examples and counter examples should help us come to consensus

17:55:30 [shadi]

q+

17:55:42 [janina_]

ack sh

17:55:44 [Azlan]

ack shadi

17:55:52 [janina_]

q?

17:56:12 [ToddL]

q+

17:56:48 [Azlan]

Darryl: see this useful as a signpost and check we are heading in the right direction.

17:57:31 [Azlan]

ack ToddL

17:57:37 [janina_]

ack tod

17:57:49 [Azlan]

ToddL: Like the direction this is going

17:57:54 [janina_]

q?

17:58:31 [PeterKorn]

q+

17:58:55 [Azlan]

GreggVan: how to add comments?

17:59:22 [ToddL]

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17:59:34 [PeterKorn]

q-

17:59:35 [Azlan]

shadi: Make it clear with initials for comments or use the discussion page if more appropriate

18:00:04 [shadi]

zakim, take up next

18:00:04 [Zakim]

agendum 4 -- Sampling & Reporting -- Use Cases https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YgiOg3CZz-LAVxRT0CWUTWHzyVa3UrjqdU4NvoyUZ_8/ -- taken up [from janina_]

18:00:33 [shadi]

[deferred]

18:00:35 [shadi]

zakim, take up next

18:00:35 [Zakim]

agendum 4 was just opened, shadi

18:01:08 [shadi]

zakim, end meeting

18:01:08 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Azlan, shadi, GreggVan, ToddL, PeterKorn, maryjom, Wilco

18:01:10 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

18:01:10 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/02-silver-conf-minutes.html Zakim

18:01:13 [Zakim]

I am happy to have been of service, shadi; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye

18:01:17 [Zakim]

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