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16:20:23 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/12/02-silver-conf-irc
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16:20:36 <janina_> Meeting: Silver Conformance Options Subgroup
16:20:42 <janina_> Date: 02 Dec 2021
16:20:46 <janina_> Chair: Janina
16:20:52 <janina_> rrsagent, make log public
16:20:57 <janina_> agenda?
16:21:02 <janina_> Agenda+ Agenda Review & Administrative Items
16:21:02 <janina_> agenda+ Advancing Conformance and Compliance Glossary Definitions https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Conformance_Glossary_Candidates
16:21:05 <janina_> agenda+ Followup re Shadi's and Gregg's proposals
16:21:07 <janina_> agenda+ Sampling & Reporting -- Use Cases https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YgiOg3CZz-LAVxRT0CWUTWHzyVa3UrjqdU4NvoyUZ_8/
16:21:10 <janina_> agenda+ Other Business
16:21:13 <janina_> agenda+ Be Done
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17:00:12 <shadi> shadi has joined #silver-conf
17:01:36 <Azlan> Azlan has joined #silver-conf
17:01:45 <Azlan> present+
17:02:15 <shadi> present+
17:02:34 <GreggVan> GreggVan has joined #silver-conf
17:02:57 <shadi> scribe: shadi
17:03:02 <GreggVan> present+
17:03:35 <ToddL> present+
17:03:46 <Darryl> Darryl has joined #silver-conf
17:03:50 <shadi> agenda?
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17:04:11 <PeterKorn> present+
17:04:14 <shadi> zakim, take up next
17:04:14 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Administrative Items -- taken up [from janina_]
17:04:16 <maryjom> present+
17:04:43 <shadi> JS: meeting next week and the week after, then end-of-year break
17:06:51 <shadi> Jeanne: will speak tomorrow about Friday call plans
17:06:54 <shadi> zakim, take up next
17:06:54 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Advancing Conformance and Compliance Glossary Definitions https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Conformance_Glossary_Candidates -- taken up [from janina_]
17:07:50 <shadi> Janina: emphasis on conformance and compliance
17:08:22 <shadi> ...seems AGWG chairs had plans to discuss definition of conformance
17:08:35 <shadi> ...might be good to introduce compliance too
17:08:43 <GreggVan> q+
17:08:46 <shadi> ...and use consistently in all WCAG documents
17:09:15 <shadi> ...which may help better address our thoughts
17:09:40 <Wilco> Wilco has joined #silver-conf
17:09:45 <janina_>  q?
17:09:45 <shadi> ...are we ready with these terms?
17:09:46 <Wilco> present+
17:09:52 <janina_> ack GreggVan
17:09:56 <shadi> ...or maybe add "exploratory" tag to any?
17:10:32 <shadi> Gregg: don't comply with a standard, you comply with a law
17:10:52 <janina_> q?
17:10:57 <janina_> q+
17:11:15 <shadi> ...except 508, which is a regulation that includes its own standards
17:11:34 <shadi> ...other regulations have separate standard
17:11:45 <PeterKorn> q+
17:12:27 <GreggVan> q+
17:12:32 <shadi> Janina: sometimes need to distinguish exactly that aspect
17:12:48 <shadi> ...for example to set out considerations for policy makers
17:13:02 <shadi> ...might simplify what we put in our conformance standard
17:13:25 <shadi> ack janina_
17:13:32 <shadi> ack GreggVan
17:13:42 <shadi> Gregg: understood, makes sense
17:13:55 <janina_> q?
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17:15:10 <Azlan> shadi: At the time didn't specifically have the glossary in mind but the other document may include considerations for laws. This sets it out more clearly.
17:15:14 <janina_> ack pet
17:15:53 <Wilco> q+
17:15:57 <shadi> Peter: if not comfortable as own term for now, could bring it into the conformance section and add the term there
17:16:31 <janina_> q?
17:16:36 <Azlan> +1 to PeterKorn's statement
17:17:08 <shadi> Jeanne: noticed in AGWG that Judy said she didn't want to see some terms defined
17:17:23 <shadi> ...maybe this is one of them
17:17:31 <shadi> Janina: don't recall that
17:17:36 <shadi> Wilco: me too
17:17:41 <janina_> ack gr
17:17:58 <maryjom> q+
17:18:22 <shadi> Gregg: think was about narrow definition and overlaps with other areas
17:18:36 <shadi> ...but could also consider Understanding documents or such
17:18:53 <shadi> ...as long as we do not overstep into defining other space
17:19:04 <shadi> ...can define it for ourselves for now
17:19:44 <shadi> Janina: there is an effort to look through all definitions
17:20:38 <shadi> Wilco: think AGWG was discussing technologies
17:20:56 <shadi> ...reluctant to have definition of a term we don't use
17:21:15 <shadi> ...like Peter's suggestion of working it into the text
17:21:33 <shadi> ...also not very clear why we are having this conversation
17:21:39 <shadi> ...and who benefits
17:21:48 <PeterKorn> Also w.r.t. a glossy entry for "Conformance", another route is to define "Conformance to WCAG" - a more narrow task that need not bleed over to other W3C specs.
17:21:54 <shadi> Janina: think it may help untangle things
17:22:11 <GreggVan> q+
17:22:26 <Wilco> ack w
17:23:06 <shadi> MaryJo: also have concern with some of the terms we are defining
17:23:15 <shadi> ...may exist in other standards already
17:23:24 <shadi> ...need to harmonize across standards
17:23:27 <GreggVan> Q+  to say    "defs are normative - so agree with Wilco"   "Good to have them somewhere because it allow us to place issues - ideas someplace rather than say "out of scope".
17:24:17 <shadi> ...not very sure about "Substantial Refresh"
17:24:26 <janina_> Google Doc is at: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MDW5ja90OVuCSbirmOLfKcnHdgEKOUvqFy5icPwGsdY/edit?usp=sharing
17:24:29 <janina_> HTML version is at https://www.w3.org/2021/09/draft-wai-glossary
17:24:32 <janina_> 
17:24:38 <shadi> Janina: only considering "Conformance" and "Compliance" for now
17:25:03 <shadi> MaryJo: agree with this, I see people using them interchangeably
17:25:17 <janina_> q?
17:25:21 <shadi> Janina: that's exactly the intend, to get clearer on these two terms
17:26:05 <janina_> ack mar
17:26:08 <janina_> ack gr
17:26:08 <Zakim> GreggVan, you wanted to say    "defs are normative - so agree with Wilco"   "Good to have them somewhere because it allow us to place issues - ideas someplace rather than say "out
17:26:11 <Zakim> ... of scope".
17:26:39 <shadi> Gregg: definitions are normative and also only for terms used normatively
17:26:42 <janina_> q+
17:27:15 <shadi> ...agree there is confusion in this space
17:27:20 <janina_> q?
17:27:28 <shadi> ...maybe need a separate document, to explain the two
17:28:28 <shadi> ...another reasons to consider this, is because we sometimes say "this is for policy makers"
17:28:43 <shadi> ...which sounds like "not our job" or so, which is not the intent
17:29:00 <shadi> ...may make it easier to describe these parts
17:29:35 <shadi> Janina: I like dictionaries, there is an art to it
17:30:21 <PeterKorn> q?
17:30:24 <PeterKorn> q+
17:30:53 <Wilco> I'm hesitant, but won't object to adding it as a definition
17:30:59 <shadi> ...concerned that if we throw it into the Glossary, it would become part of the WAI-wide glossary
17:31:33 <GreggVan> q+
17:31:37 <shadi> ...first question, is it useful to make this distinction?
17:31:46 <shadi> ...does it help advance our standard
17:32:06 <shadi> q+
17:32:39 <janina_> q?
17:32:43 <janina_> ack jan
17:32:45 <janina_> ack pet
17:32:48 <GreggVan> q+ to say  "I'm ok with that as long as you talk to Judy first"   and " I think we should stop discussion here until after checking with Judy"
17:33:20 <janina_> q?
17:33:26 <shadi> Peter: I don't think we spent enough time within our group to move it forward
17:33:36 <shadi> ...also not as experimental
17:34:00 <janina_> ack gr
17:34:00 <Zakim> GreggVan, you wanted to say  "I'm ok with that as long as you talk to Judy first"   and " I think we should stop discussion here until after checking with Judy"
17:34:24 <shadi> Gregg: ^^^
17:35:07 <shadi> ...also agree with Peter that we need to first vet within our group
17:36:03 <shadi> Janina: agree with holding this for now
17:37:06 <janina_> q?
17:37:34 <shadi> Jeanne: thought this may be coming back next week?
17:37:48 <shadi> Janina: not sure, I may have misread
17:38:08 <janina_> q?
17:38:18 <shadi> Wilco: my impression was also not necessarily next week
17:38:26 <shadi> ...it was until this group is ready
17:38:50 <PeterKorn> q?
17:38:58 <shadi> Jeanne: could discuss tomorrow in Silver
17:39:03 <shadi> Janina: we could
17:39:19 <janina_> ack shad
17:41:12 <Azlan> shadi: we should agree on these examples and then we can cross the bridge when we get there. We don't know if we will use these terms.
17:41:50 <janina_> q?
17:41:59 <shadi> Janina: will check on red flags with Judy and others
17:43:06 <shadi> ...should be bring to Silver TF tomorrow?
17:43:25 <shadi> [prefer not from several attendees]
17:43:28 <shadi> zakim, take up next
17:43:28 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Followup re Shadi's and Gregg's proposals -- taken up [from janina_]
17:43:52 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Substantial_Conformance/Example_Scenarios
17:45:11 <janina_> q?
17:45:46 <GreggVan> q+
17:46:16 <Azlan> shadi: when discussed, the examples were present but not the subsections role of the technical standard and role of the accessibility policy. This intends to bring together the challenges discussed previously and the considerations required to address these things.
17:46:48 <GreggVan> q+ to say    "Technical is to define what is accessible  or not.     Policy is to define when it needs to be applied and how and if exceptions -- as well as "equiv facilitation".
17:47:18 <Azlan> shadi: Some overlap with what GreggVan has been looking at
17:48:23 <Azlan> janina_: the most successful way is to take time in the meeting
17:48:56 <janina_> ack gr
17:48:56 <Zakim> GreggVan, you wanted to say    "Technical is to define what is accessible  or not.     Policy is to define when it needs to be applied and how and if exceptions -- as well as
17:48:59 <Azlan> ack GreggVan
17:49:00 <Zakim> ... "equiv facilitation".
17:49:32 <PeterKorn> q+
17:49:38 <Azlan> GreggVan: suggest to vote in next meeting
17:51:02 <Azlan> GreggVan: definitions are in the right direction. "Levels of or minimum accessibility". Policy determines which rule to meet. Facilitation refers to techniques.
17:51:16 <Azlan> ack PeterKorn
17:51:27 <janina_> ack pet
17:51:52 <Azlan> PeterKorn: Should policy and accessibility exist up at the top vs per example?
17:52:01 <Azlan> GreggVan: Yes to global scope
17:52:48 <janina_> q?
17:52:54 <janina_> q+
17:53:24 <Azlan> PeterKorn: agrees with the way the document sets our technical vs policy. Would be great to bring to AGWG requests thoughts beyond a "vehicle" to gain understanding from AGWG - where does this go?
17:53:39 <GreggVan> q+  to say  "this item with examples is great.    we need to have more arguments done with examples - they really help with understanding."
17:53:52 <Azlan> ack janina_
17:54:11 <janina_> q?
17:54:15 <janina_> ack gr
17:54:15 <Zakim> GreggVan, you wanted to say  "this item with examples is great.    we need to have more arguments done with examples - they really help with understanding."
17:55:04 <janina_> q?
17:55:14 <Azlan> GreggVan: examples and counter examples should help us come to consensus
17:55:30 <shadi> q+
17:55:42 <janina_> ack sh
17:55:44 <Azlan> ack shadi
17:55:52 <janina_> q?
17:56:12 <ToddL> q+
17:56:48 <Azlan> Darryl: see this useful as a signpost and check we are heading in the right direction.
17:57:31 <Azlan> ack ToddL
17:57:37 <janina_> ack tod
17:57:49 <Azlan> ToddL: Like the direction this is going
17:57:54 <janina_> q?
17:58:31 <PeterKorn> q+
17:58:55 <Azlan> GreggVan: how to add comments?
17:59:22 <ToddL> ToddL has left #silver-conf
17:59:34 <PeterKorn> q-
17:59:35 <Azlan> shadi: Make it clear with initials for comments or use the discussion page if more appropriate
18:00:04 <shadi> zakim, take up next
18:00:04 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Sampling & Reporting -- Use Cases https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YgiOg3CZz-LAVxRT0CWUTWHzyVa3UrjqdU4NvoyUZ_8/ -- taken up [from janina_]
18:00:33 <shadi> [deferred]
18:00:35 <shadi> zakim, take up next
18:00:35 <Zakim> agendum 4 was just opened, shadi
18:01:08 <shadi> zakim, end meeting
18:01:08 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Azlan, shadi, GreggVan, ToddL, PeterKorn, maryjom, Wilco
18:01:10 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:01:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/02-silver-conf-minutes.html Zakim
18:01:13 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, shadi; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:01:17 <Zakim> Zakim has left #silver-conf