17:35:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:35:59 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/12/02-aria-irc
17:36:02 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:36:04 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:36:32 <jamesn> agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3rsQwlq)
17:36:32 <jamesn> agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3okOoKB)
17:36:32 <jamesn> agenda+ [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates)
17:36:32 <jamesn> agenda+ [Figure out what to do with the DPUB mappings overlap with the ARIA Core spec, in the context of newer implementation differences](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1643)
17:36:33 <jamesn> agenda+ Accname and hidden stuff - next steps?
17:36:33 <jamesn>   * [Proposal: do not follow aria-labelledby/aria-describedby into content-visibility:hidden](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/146)
17:36:33 <jamesn>   * [Updated spec text to reflect the processing of hidden elements when c…](https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/137)
17:36:34 <jamesn> agenda+ [Clarify how "otherwise interactive" relates to overriding the none/presentation role](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1628)
17:36:34 <jamesn> agenda+ [summary element role mapping](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/345)
17:36:34 <jamesn> agenda+ [clarify img naming steps](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/322)
17:56:01 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
17:56:07 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
18:01:20 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
18:01:53 <spectranaut> present+
18:02:01 <jamesn> present+
18:03:16 <carmacleod> carmacleod has joined #aria
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18:03:29 <pkra> present+
18:03:31 <carmacleod> present+
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18:04:27 <jamesn> scribe: pkra
18:04:27 <pkra> scribe: pkra
18:04:29 <scottohara> present+
18:04:36 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:04:36 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3rsQwlq) -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:04:51 <Greta> Greta has joined #aria
18:05:00 <Greta> +present
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18:05:38 <pkra> jnurthen: accname 147. sounds more like html-aam
18:05:52 <pkra> ... scott, can you ask if html-aam covers what they are after?
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18:06:34 <pkra> aaron: I think this might refer to my proposal from a while back.
18:06:49 <pkra> jnurthen: ok, sounds like we have an issue for that. so let's ask if they're happy with that.
18:06:59 <pkra> ... next: aria 1654
18:07:22 <pkra> ... assign to pkra
18:07:55 <pkra> ... next core aam 102, assigned to valerie
18:08:12 <pkra> ... next: aria 1653. document in dialog.
18:08:29 <pkra> scott: don't think this needs spec update
18:08:52 <pkra> ... it's due to outdated advice
18:08:56 <pkra> jnurthen: let's close it?
18:09:13 <pkra> ... [no disagreement]
18:09:33 <pkra> ... next aria 1651, roleDescription
18:10:13 <pkra> scott: thanks for the responses. came from research on generic / paragraph. saw that nvda did something. I wanted to clarify the spec's intent here.
18:10:34 <pkra> ... make sure authors know what will (not) do something
18:13:26 <pkra> jnurthen: aria 1649
18:13:34 <pkra> scott: PR is there and approved.
18:13:47 <pkra> jnurthen: next core-aam 101
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18:14:04 <WilliamTennisNFCU> present+
18:14:49 <pkra> carolyn: noticed this while looking at nameless forms. all other roles have special AX subroles. Not sure if it exists for real.
18:15:25 <pkra> jcraig: I'll look into it. A bit of an enigma why it shows up sometimes.
18:15:59 <pkra> jnurthen: core-aam 100.
18:16:17 <pkra> carolyn: can assign to me but needs relevant people on board.
18:16:31 <jcraig> s/shows up sometimes/shows up in WebKitGtk, but not other areas of WebKit. Will look into it./
18:16:58 <pkra> joanie: maybe pull in people who consume it (e.g., NVDA)
18:17:18 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:17:18 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3okOoKB) -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:17:46 <pkra> jnurthen: aria 1652 remove reference to range
18:18:12 <pkra> ... seems editorial.
18:18:41 <pkra> scott: changed to input type range
18:18:50 <pkra> carolyn: will review
18:18:59 <pkra> pkra: me too
18:19:17 <pkra> jnurthen: aria 1650. purely editorial.
18:19:49 <pkra> ... aria 1648 spec prod issue.
18:20:34 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:20:34 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:21:41 <pkra> jnurthen: next week: deep dive on hit point.
18:22:26 <pkra> ... I suspect nothing for Dec 16, so no new ones until new year.
18:22:30 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:22:30 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- [Figure out what to do with the DPUB mappings overlap with the ARIA Core spec, in the context of newer implementation
18:22:32 <Zakim> ... differences](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1643) -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:23:11 <pkra> ... marked for deep dive. lots of activity. Anything to do?
18:23:45 <pkra> jcraig: I think we need DPUB stakeholders there.
18:24:03 <pkra> jnurthen: can wait until 2022?
18:24:05 <pkra> jcraig: yes.
18:24:32 <pkra> jnurthen: so let's organize deep dive next year.
18:26:24 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:26:24 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Accname and hidden stuff - next steps? -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:27:04 <pkra> jnurthen: we first had innerText proposal. Is that done and not happening? If so, what else?
18:27:15 <pkra> bryan: unclear to me.
18:28:02 <pkra> aaron: we're working to implement accessible name on hidden object without innerText.
18:28:19 <pkra> jnurthen: will that be compatible with other platforms?
18:28:43 <pkra> ... are you implementing the spec?
18:28:50 <pkra> aaron: was there any vagueness?
18:28:56 <jcraig> what is the issue number?
18:29:10 <pkra> jnurthen: if not directly hidden, it would not expose child node.
18:30:15 <pkra> jcraig: IIRC bryan wrote the PR, I edited that, aaron didn't like innerText, make proposal
18:30:16 <pkra> https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/137
18:30:50 <pkra> aaron: IIRC "doubly hidden" was confusing.
18:31:08 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57
18:31:38 <pkra> aaron: it's not just me having an issue with innerText, right?
18:31:47 <pkra> ... it was a good way to get around the problem.
18:31:53 <pkra> ... but didn't really do what we wantd.
18:32:04 <jamesn> <div hidden><!-- everything beneath this is unrendered b/c html@hidden is implemented as display: none; -- >
18:32:04 <jamesn>   <i id="desc">
18:32:04 <jamesn>     This is a label.
18:32:04 <jamesn>     <b>This should stay hidden because it's unrendered.</b>
18:32:04 <jamesn>     <b hidden>This should stay hidden too. Unrendered from ancestor node, despite parent node being included by IDREF.</b>
18:32:05 <jamesn>     <b aria-hidden="true">This should stay hidden too. Still unrendered from ancestor, so aria-hidden is redundant here.</b>
18:32:05 <jamesn>   </i>
18:32:05 <jamesn> </div>
18:32:05 <jamesn> <input title="Field Name" id="test" aria-labelledby="desc" />
18:32:23 <pkra> jcraig: an update would be good, maybe as implementation nears completion.
18:32:29 <pkra> aaron: hopefully done by January.
18:32:46 <pkra> jnurthen: example from issue.
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18:34:11 <pkra> byran: innerText might create discrepancies between visual and non-visual
18:34:25 <pkra> I had some audio failure, please correct me, bryan.
18:34:49 <CurtBellew> present+
18:35:02 <pkra> aaron: there were some interesting edge cases, e.g., tooltip. useful but not common.
18:35:16 <jcraig> Commented in issue 57 "@aleventhal is working on a test implementation without innerText in Chrome, and will comment or update the PR (to replace the innerText reference in the current PR) once that's reasonably complete." https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57#issuecomment-984891220
18:35:26 <pkra> ... that shouldn't complicate things too much implementation.
18:36:18 <pkra> bryan: e.g., you could hear the hidden tooltip but when triggered, hear the rendered tooltip.
18:36:53 <pkra> aaron: would like to make it deterministic. When you want to hide something "no matter what" you need to use aria-hidden. That would allow authors to write it in a way that works.
18:37:12 <pkra> jnurthen: ok. next steps: move implementation forward, feed back.
18:37:19 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:37:19 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- [Clarify how "otherwise interactive" relates to overriding the none/presentation role](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1628) -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:38:22 <pkra> jnurthen: we have a PR. cynthia approved. Can we merge?
18:38:30 <pkra> ... [no disagreement]
18:38:57 <pkra> ... do we need tests for this?
18:39:09 <pkra> ... we probably should've had tests before.
18:39:15 <pkra> ... so it's probably fine.
18:39:56 <pkra> ... [no disagreement]
18:40:09 <pkra> joanie: as jcraig said not testable
18:40:14 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:40:14 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- [summary element role mapping](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/345) -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:40:15 <jcraig> no way to test for the removal of ambiguity... no tests required.
18:40:51 <pkra> ... what do we do with this?
18:41:19 <pkra> carolyn: what do platforms do?
18:41:25 <pkra> scott: button role (mostly)
18:41:32 <pkra> bryan: button.
18:42:27 <pkra> melanie: what's the work to be done here?
18:43:13 <pkra> jnurthen: hard to say. I feel like we need to get html mapping sorted.
18:43:32 <pkra> scott: because it's mapped to button is some cases, it's not working correctly in some combinations
18:43:40 <pkra> ... but in other roles it behaves better.
18:44:07 <pkra> ... we either need a role for nested interactive elements (which is the problem here, but HTML hasn't liked it in the past)
18:44:23 <pkra> ... it's also currently broken on some platforms.
18:44:37 <pkra> jcraig: VO seems ok. only one?
18:45:44 <pkra> scott: pretty much. JAWS, NVDA with virtual cursor they won't enter into the summary because it's treated as a button so content isn't there. You can tab into it, then focusable elements can be interacted with. With Chrome, e.g., a text field inside it, hitting space bar to enter text will trigger disclosure functionality.
18:45:59 <pkra> jcraig: how does a regular link in an aria button behave?
18:46:32 <pkra> ... if we can't implement this in an aria-button, we can change it.
18:46:49 <pkra> carolyn: meta question: we never finished role parity. should we try again?
18:46:55 <pkra> melanie: I'd be interested.
18:47:52 <pkra> ... had interesting conversations with developers around it.
18:47:59 <pkra> jnurthen: we stopped b/c we haven't had requests to do more. would want to know more use cases.
18:48:09 <joanie> q+ to mention that many elements have parity with "generic"
18:48:11 <pkra> melanie: I can try to get input.
18:49:53 <pkra> ... will look to give some examples
18:50:04 <pkra> jnurthen: that would be very helpful.
18:50:33 <joanie> q-
18:51:13 <pkra> joanie: besides generic, we have cases like ul and ol mapping to list role.
18:51:33 <pkra> ... I'd like really compelling case before having a role for every element.
18:52:08 <pkra> scott: find out what is really missing.
18:52:17 <pkra> jnurthen: some hard ones like audio/video
18:52:53 <pkra> jcraig: also some from DPUB perhaps.
18:53:22 <jamesn> agenda?
18:53:34 <pkra> zakim, next item
18:53:34 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- [clarify img naming steps](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/322) -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:54:29 <pkra> jnurthen: we seem to have a gap we can't bridge.
18:55:02 <pkra> ... the data is interesting. 1% seems like a large amount.
18:55:12 <pkra> bryan: images from frameworks often have bad titles.
18:55:48 <pkra> jnurthen: how do we deal with more philosophic problems?
18:56:26 <pkra> ... if we can't agree, what do we do?
18:56:32 <pkra> scott: webkit and chromium follow the spec.
18:57:10 <pkra> jcraig: a mild preference to Jamie's approach.
18:58:22 <pkra> scott: also know cases where alt is used to counteract title outside people's control
18:58:38 <pkra> bryan: alt='' is equivalent to role=presentation, no?
18:59:49 <pkra> jnurthen: "alt='' makes image presentation" has been a long standing guidance. if we remove it, it's significant.
19:00:38 <pkra> jcraig: we're not really going back to it. aria-hidden is still there.
19:00:46 <pkra> jnurthen: but change will expose a lot of content suddenly
19:01:17 <pkra> rssagent, make minutes
19:01:22 <pkra> rrsagent, make minutes
19:01:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/02-aria-minutes.html pkra
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