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14:58:32 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/11/24-wot-td-irc
14:58:59 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
15:00:15 <McCool> McCool has joined #wot-td
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15:06:14 <cris> topic: agenda
15:06:37 <cris> seb: we have some topics about the publication plans
15:07:07 <cris> ... then a proposal for changing the review process
15:07:30 <cris> ... we should look to terms/assertions that may be moved from/to Arch
15:07:44 <cris> ... finally PRs and eventually Issues
15:07:46 <cris> ... aob?
15:07:58 <cris> topic: previous minutes
15:08:45 <cris> seb: we looked to some PRs
15:09:01 <cris> ... OAuth PR was not correct
15:09:27 <kaz> i/we have some/scribenick: cris/
15:09:30 <cris> mc: yeah I had a couple of concerns I commented on the PR it self
15:10:02 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Cristiano_Aguzzi, Daniel_Peintner, Jan_Roman, Michael_McCool, Michael_Koster
15:10:16 <kaz> regrets+ Ege
15:11:40 <cris> seb: minor typo suptopic -> subtopic
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15:13:02 <cris> seb: PR 1282 was controversial, it is still to be merged
15:13:20 <cris> ... we have already a list of changes in the TD document
15:13:37 <cris> ... together with a list of changes in the test report
15:14:25 <cris> ... webhook pr was blocked by concerns about UriTemplates usage
15:15:56 <cris> ... we discussed about v1.1 version
15:16:00 <cris> ... it should be solved now
15:16:04 <cris> ... minutes ok?
15:16:13 <cris> ... ok, please publish the minutes
15:16:44 <kaz> i|we looked|-> https://www.w3.org/2021/11/17-wot-td-minutes.html Nov-17|
15:16:49 <sebastian> q?
15:16:51 <cris> q?
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15:17:07 <cris> topic: publication plans
15:17:14 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
15:17:27 <cris> seb: we have a good status of the document
15:17:30 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:17:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/24-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:17:42 <cris> ... the features list of 1.1 is good
15:17:55 <cris> ... I would publish a new WD for December
15:18:16 <kaz> present- Jan_Roman
15:18:21 <kaz> present+ Jan_Romann
15:18:31 <cris> ... we can receive feedback
15:18:35 <kaz> present+ Michael_Lagally, Tomoaki_Mizushima
15:18:37 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:18:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/24-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:18:51 <cris> subtopic: issue 1276
15:19:18 <cris> seb: we reached a good consensus for the namespace
15:19:42 <cris> kaz: I suggest to contact [NAME]
15:19:53 <kaz> s/[NAME]/Philippe and Ralph/
15:20:12 <cris> seb: will do
15:20:25 <cris> subtopic: normative sections
15:20:40 <cris> seb: kaz requested a list of normative/non-normative sections
15:20:55 <cris> ... we should follow what we had for 1.0
15:20:56 <kaz> q+
15:21:07 <cris> ... and add the new Thing Model section
15:22:40 <cris> seb: terminology section is not normative, weird
15:22:47 <cris> ... is it the same for architecture?
15:23:45 <cris> kaz: I would like to understand the dependencies between the terminology section of TD and Arch
15:23:56 <cris> ... we also have to mark at risk features
15:24:31 <cris> seb: we can only understand at resk features in a test-fest
15:24:49 <cris> kaz: yes, but they need to be included in this document to be ready for the CR
15:25:26 <cris> seb: ok, continuing on counting normative/non-normative sections
15:25:36 <kaz> s/this document to be ready for/the "Status of This Document" section when we publish/
15:25:59 <cris> ... about namespace, do we need to update all the ontology file namespaces?
15:26:23 <kaz> s/between the/between the TD spec and the other specs, e.g., the/
15:26:32 <cris> ... we need to understand the best practices
15:26:42 <cris> ... schema.org for example do not update the namespace
15:27:03 <kaz> q?
15:27:04 <kaz> ack k
15:27:07 <cris> mk: the URI shouldn't change
15:28:19 <cris> ... context should be updated
15:28:23 <cris> q+
15:28:28 <kaz> q+
15:28:40 <cris> seb: I have the same feeling
15:28:55 <cris> ... it seems that also saref don't change
15:29:09 <cris> mk: actually it changed
15:29:27 <cris> ... but because the requirements changed
15:30:15 <cris> seb: om too does not have version information
15:31:18 <cris> cris: are we talking about ontology namespaces? but no @context
15:31:30 <dape> q+
15:31:48 <cris> seb: yes about ontology namespaces
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15:31:57 <mjk> q?
15:32:34 <kaz> ack cr
15:34:20 <cris> cris: ok so the context file is served from another url
15:34:24 <cris> seb: yes
15:35:52 <cris> q?
15:36:11 <cris> seb: maybe it would be better to have a namespace without the year
15:36:39 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/2017/REC-vocab-ssn-20171019/#namespaces SSN ontology
15:36:40 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/2021/WD-vocab-dcat-3-20210504/#namespaces DCAT ontology
15:36:56 <cris> ... we could define a new generic namespace that redirects back to the old URL
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15:37:24 <cris> kaz: please have a look to SSN ontology and DCAT ontology for guidance
15:38:31 <cris> seb: dcat is using a generic namespace
15:38:43 <cris> kaz: it has it's own namespace
15:38:51 <mjk> q?
15:39:56 <cris> kaz: also other working groups are having the same problems
15:40:06 <cris> seb: yeah for example json-ld 1.0
15:40:29 <mjk> q+
15:40:40 <kaz> ack k
15:40:56 <cris> seb: IMO I would prefer to have a namespace without the year
15:41:08 <cris> q?
15:41:18 <kaz> s/problems/problems. anyway, we need to think about what would be the best based on implementers' feedback as well./
15:41:57 <cris> dape: my expectations are that if the content change we should update the Namespace
15:42:17 <cris> ... updating it under the hood may cause problems
15:42:22 <cris> cris: +1
15:42:36 <cris> seb: agree but it seems that ontologies work differently
15:43:01 <cris> ... if you just extend the old one it make sense
15:43:37 <cris> q?
15:44:30 <dape> ack dape
15:45:18 <cris> mjk: it is language that it has been defined
15:45:30 <cris> ... not standard knowledge
15:45:43 <cris> ... so it might be ok to use a versioning approach
15:45:49 <mjk> ack mjk
15:46:44 <cris> cris: I agree
15:46:53 <cris> seb: ok let's keep an eye on this
15:47:35 <kaz> q?
15:47:36 <cris> q?
15:48:17 <cris> seb: in February we going to have a new test-fest, we can mark at risk features there
15:48:37 <cris> ... we have one critical section: Canonicalization
15:49:15 <cris> mc: it was meant for signing, but now signing is deferred
15:50:30 <cris> ... standardizing it now might cause compatibility problems later on. Plus we might leverage on JSON-LD canonicalization.
15:50:38 <mlagally> q+
15:50:46 <cris> ... ok for removing the section and then profile will take it
15:50:55 <dape> q+
15:51:20 <cris> ml: we can have this defined in the arch
15:52:06 <cris> mm: the problem is that we can't well define canonicalization now, at least in a way that works with signing
15:52:21 <cris> ... we can pick the datetime format for example
15:52:41 <cris> ... but other points will just create a very verbose TD
15:53:02 <cris> ... I would be ok to be used for signing but not for storing
15:53:30 <cris> ... plus I would remove it from the terminology section
15:53:59 <cris> ... we can always recover it from the TD 2.0
15:54:07 <cris> q+
15:54:43 <victor> victor has joined #wot-td
15:54:58 <cris> mm: json-ld will help us taking our requirements when defining their own canonicalization process
15:56:09 <cris> ... I would keep 1 2 3 4 steps of the canonicalization process
15:56:36 <cris> ... 5 is interesting, ontology extensions are tricky to handle
15:57:11 <cris> ml: we should move this to Profile discussion
15:57:14 <cris> mm: yeah
15:58:15 <cris> ack cris
15:58:20 <mlagally> q-
15:58:53 <cris> dape: I did work to implement it
15:59:04 <cris> ... verbosity is not a problem
15:59:13 <dape> ack dape
15:59:29 <cris> ... to me we can leave it here (no move to profile)
16:00:04 <cris> mm: verbosity is not a problem in signing
16:00:55 <cris> seb: ok canonicalization will be removed
16:01:07 <cris> ... then we have the TM section I would put it as normative
16:01:18 <cris> ... unless we have problems implementing it
16:01:50 <cris> ... maybe in the next charter we can have this content in another document
16:02:20 <cris> ... all the other chapter are identical
16:02:24 <cris> q?
16:02:45 <cris> topic: Async review process
16:03:27 <cris> seb: ben created a formal description of the process
16:03:34 <cris> ... so that we can move forward faster
16:04:04 <cris> ... I agree with the point that we should be faster on trivial points
16:04:11 <cris> ... like on bug fixes/ typos
16:06:23 <cris> ... any comments?
16:06:26 <cris> q?
16:06:35 <cris> +1 :)
16:06:55 <kaz> q+
16:07:05 <JKRhb_> q+
16:07:36 <cris> kaz: we should not rush into the decision, the process must be well defined
16:07:45 <kaz> ack k
16:08:04 <cris> seb: currently there're no rules written down
16:08:18 <cris> ... we need to focus on core features
16:08:19 <JKRhb_> q-
16:08:51 <cris> kaz: for the record I'm not objecting to the idea itself
16:08:59 <cris> seb: we can try
16:09:24 <cris> topic:
16:09:34 <cris> s/topic:/topic: architecture/
16:09:56 <cris> seb: on the issue list you can see grey highlighted terms
16:10:07 <cris> ... those are assertions that can be moved to the TD
16:11:23 <kaz> q?
16:13:25 <cris> mm: I have an example of a read-only property: device that can configured with credentials (of course you can't re-read them once you wrote onto the device)
16:13:54 <cris> seb: oddly enough all the assertions comes from Zoltan, maybe we can ask him for feedback
16:14:12 <cris> mm: we need to select the ones that should stay on the arch
16:14:25 <cris> seb: I agree
16:15:17 <cris> seb: arch-op-wellknow-compare should be removed, we have strictly defined vocabulary terms.
16:16:32 <cris> ... I want to focus on arch-uri-scheme
16:17:26 <cris> ... we have a section describing concepts similar to the assertion
16:17:32 <cris> ... we can integrate those
16:18:01 <cris> ... my main concern is that we should keep it as a SHOULD and not as MUST
16:18:36 <cris> ... not a lot of IoT protocol has URI scheme
16:18:46 <cris> mm: we need an URI scheme
16:19:02 <cris> q+
16:19:16 <cris> seb: I would move this assertion to TD
16:19:30 <cris> ... I'd vote for remove the others
16:19:43 <cris> mm: arch-id-correlations it is intersting
16:19:57 <cris> ... it is incomplete
16:20:15 <cris> ... we have multiple TDs for the same thing
16:20:36 <cris> ... we can't use the same id in different TDs cause dbs will be confused
16:20:50 <cris> ... we can resolve it with a master TD
16:21:14 <cris> ... I would move this assertion in the TD spec and clarify better how ID should be structured
16:21:58 <cris> seb: I agree, there's always some confusion with the id terms
16:22:15 <cris> ... is it the ID of the phisical Thing or Thing Description document
16:22:34 <cris> ... ontology side it is the id of the document
16:22:36 <kaz> present+ Victor_Charpenay
16:22:56 <cris> victor: how you draw this conclusion
16:23:09 <cris> ... there were guidelines
16:23:16 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:23:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/24-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:23:24 <kaz> chair: Sebastian
16:23:45 <cris> about to identify physicals objects and web documents
16:23:58 <cris> ... the spec actually says this
16:24:22 <cris> ... the id IS the id of the Thing (physical object)
16:24:43 <cris> mm: however we have problems in with Sparql
16:25:11 <cris> victor: not convinced, why ?
16:25:13 <kaz> i|on the issue list|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22blocks+publication%22 wot-architecture issues with the label of "publication-2.0"|
16:25:15 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:25:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/24-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:25:55 <cris> mm: for sure this should be tackled here, the td spec not arch
16:25:59 <kaz> -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#thing Thing Description ED - 5.3.1.1 Thing
16:26:04 <cris> ... we can discuss more in a issue
16:26:42 <McCool> https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/issues/190
16:28:52 <cris> mm: type is optional but we can't use it for framing in TDD
16:29:36 <cris> victor: we can state that something is a Thing and a TD together
16:30:56 <kaz> i|190|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues/635 wot-architecture Issue 635 - arch-id-correlation : An identifier in the WoT Thing Description MUST allow for the correlation of multiple TDs representing the same original Thing or ultimately unique physical entity.|
16:31:26 <cris> mm: @id == id is problematic
16:31:37 <cris> victor: why should we change it?
16:31:49 <cris> mm: db use @id as key
16:32:26 <cris> victor: I also developed a TDD document ids are generated on the fly
16:32:43 <JKRhb_> q+
16:33:18 <cris> seb: I think we should clarify this soon
16:34:26 <cris> victor: I had no problem with rdf dbs when store tds
16:34:37 <cris> mm: no push back for local ids
16:35:13 <JKRhb_> q-
16:35:32 <victor> (sorry for hijacking the discussion)
16:36:43 <sebastian> ack c
16:36:43 <cris> cris: maybe we can explain better that we are defining just a model and the td is a serialization of it
16:36:49 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:36:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/24-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:37:01 <kaz> q?
16:37:02 <cris> jan: we can have a dedicated device id
16:37:19 <cris> mm: it has compatibility problems
16:37:38 <cris> ... bit what happens when it is not defined?
16:37:46 <kaz> q+
16:38:18 <cris> mm: let's move to discovery
16:38:52 <kaz> ack k
16:39:19 <cris> kaz: we probably need Michael Lagally on this topic
16:40:10 <cris> topic: PRs
16:40:23 <kaz> s/topic/topic. Lagally mentioned he would be able to join the Discovery call on Monday if there is any specific topic on the agenda which requires his participation./
16:40:41 <cris> subtopic: PR 1289
16:41:15 <cris> victor: I changed only the RDF ontology, but it changes the context
16:41:23 <cris> ... it is just bug fixing
16:41:31 <cris> ... triples were missing
16:44:13 <kaz> i|changed|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1289 PR 1289 - Add 'instantiation' property to security scheme|
16:45:31 <cris> seb: minor issue
16:45:48 <cris> ... I would merge this and later fix the issue
16:47:52 <cris> victor: I would wait the fix before mergining
16:47:55 <cris> seb: ok
16:49:20 <cris> ... is 937 still relevant
16:49:24 <cris> ... ?
16:49:45 <cris> victor: we can close, the bug was a feature
16:50:41 <cris> subtopic: 1264
16:51:00 <cris> seb: what's the point
16:51:22 <cris> mm: we don't need an example about device and code
16:52:20 <cris> ... td 1.0 had implicit and password flows
16:52:30 <cris> ... we need to re-introduce them
16:52:50 <cris> ... we should put an assertion saying they are not recommended
16:53:53 <cris> cris: how should we resolve this PR?
16:54:05 <cris> mm: I'm more concerned about backward compatibility problems
16:54:15 <cris> ... we should fix it before continuing
16:55:25 <cris> cris: problem with client is that you can't use it on browsers
16:55:35 <cris> mm: let's discuss this in the sec call on monday
16:55:51 <cris> subtopic: 1279
16:55:56 <cris> dape: should be ready
16:56:16 <cris> seb: a small change in the css to make examples printable
16:57:08 <cris> ... merging any objections?=
16:57:12 <cris> s/=//
16:57:16 <cris> ... merged
16:57:41 <kaz> i|should be ready|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1279 PR 1279 - print *all* code parts on print|
16:58:20 <kaz> i|what's the point|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1264 PR 1264 - Fix 948|
16:58:30 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:58:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/24-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:58:38 <cris> subtopic: 1284
16:59:09 <cris> seb: is an improvement of observeproperty behavior
16:59:48 <cris> ... ok to merge?
16:59:58 <cris> ... merged
17:00:16 <cris> ... this a good example of a PR to be merged offline
17:00:32 <cris> subtopic: 1292
17:00:40 <cris> seb: an entry was missing
17:01:19 <cris> ... strange ordering
17:02:38 <cris> ... merging?
17:02:41 <cris> ... merged
17:03:11 <kaz> i|is an impro|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1284 PR 1284 - add a note about observe behavior|
17:04:01 <kaz> i|an entry was|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1292 PR 1292 - fix default table entry for observable|
17:04:06 <kaz> [adjourned]
17:04:11 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:04:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/24-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
17:16:19 <kaz> kaz has joined #wot-td