14:59:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-td
14:59:25 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/11/17-wot-td-irc
14:59:26 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
14:59:30 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura
15:00:17 <jkrhb> jkrhb has joined #wot-td
15:03:56 <dape> dape has joined #wot-td
15:09:04 <kaz> present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch, Daniel_Peintner, Jan_Romann, Michael_Koster
15:09:14 <kaz> scribenick: dape
15:09:53 <kaz> present+ Michael_McCool, Tomoaki_Mizushima
15:10:01 <McCool> McCool has joined #wot-td
15:10:13 <kaz> q+
15:10:22 <dape> SK: <agenda bashing>
15:10:33 <kaz> i/agenda/topic: Agenda
15:11:33 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#Nov_17.2C_2021 Agenda
15:11:48 <dape> Kaz: would like to discuss normative sections
15:12:28 <dape> ... can we clarify normative sections by End of November
15:12:38 <dape> SK: Yes, should be possible
15:12:42 <kaz> s/November/November?/
15:12:59 <dape> ... will add backlog to agenda
15:13:21 <dape> TOPIC: Previous minutes
15:13:28 <dape> -> https://www.w3.org/2021/11/10-wot-td-minutes.html
15:14:14 <kaz> s/html/html Nov-10/
15:14:22 <dape> ... SK walks over minutes
15:18:49 <Ege> Ege has joined #wot-td
15:19:48 <dape> ... Ege reporting on binding topics
15:20:43 <dape> q+
15:20:44 <kaz> q+
15:20:49 <kaz> ack k
15:20:53 <kaz> q+
15:21:52 <dape> ack dape
15:22:05 <dape> DP: see FIXME subtopic
15:22:22 <dape> ... we might want to change that
15:22:30 <sebastian> ack d
15:22:33 <dape> Kaz: Fix it
15:22:52 <dape> Kaz: Issue or PR about validator / link checker?
15:23:26 <dape> ... link checker should be applied to static html
15:23:49 <dape> Ege: seems to still report some issues with repsec docs
15:23:55 <sebastian> q?
15:23:56 <dape> ... for TD there is such an issue
15:23:58 <sebastian> ack k
15:24:06 <kaz> ack k
15:24:26 <Ege> here is the issue on td: https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1273
15:24:33 <dape> SK: any objections before merging?
15:24:37 <dape> ... none -> minutes approved
15:26:06 <dape> TOPIC: TD roadmap
15:26:21 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1000
15:26:39 <dape> SK: agreed 12 months extensions
15:26:49 <dape> ... however, we should stick to 6 months schedule
15:27:01 <dape> ... w.r.t. TD I have a good feeling
15:27:42 <dape> ... wonder whether we should release another working draft
15:28:04 <dape> ... could use WD for wide-review
15:29:02 <dape> ... any opinions?
15:29:14 <cris> cris has joined #wot-td
15:29:25 <dape> Ege: +1
15:29:27 <cris> +1
15:30:01 <dape> q+
15:30:24 <kaz> (Kaz is OK as long as our spec work makes steady progress based on the updated plan.)
15:30:27 <kaz> q?
15:30:59 <dape> DP: wonder about the reason. Increase visibility?
15:31:26 <dape> Ege: I think static version is good. Stays stable while review phase
15:31:34 <dape> SK: Agree
15:31:34 <kaz> q+
15:31:38 <dape> ack dape
15:32:16 <dape> SK: Social media mentioning is also nicer
15:32:31 <dape> Kaz: It might make sense to define procedure
15:32:57 <dape> ... static html for wide review
15:33:14 <dape> SK: McCool mentioned discovery plans to do the same
15:33:41 <dape> MMC: I will definitely would like to see a discovery update
15:33:54 <kaz> s/review/review. For example, the DID WG defines a snapshot version for wide reviews and put that some specific location./
15:33:56 <kaz> ack k
15:33:57 <dape> SK: No decision needed now. Just keep that in mind
15:34:03 <dape> ack kaz
15:34:28 <dape> TOPIC: PRs
15:34:59 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
15:35:04 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:35:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/17-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:35:33 <dape> SUBTOPIC: OAUth
15:35:38 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1264
15:36:01 <kaz> chair: Sebastian
15:36:14 <dape> MMC: We should hold on this PR
15:36:28 <dape> ... I do have pending comments
15:36:41 <dape> CA: I am looking forward to the review
15:36:54 <kaz> s/1264/1264 PR 1264 - Fix 948/
15:36:56 <kaz> q?
15:37:27 <dape> MMC: big OAuth2 write-up in security section.. need to be aligned
15:37:53 <dape> CA: Issue#948 asked for explanation
15:38:11 <dape> MMC: a "client" example might be easier
15:38:41 <dape> ... referring to security best practices document
15:38:54 <dape> CA: Sounds good to me
15:40:31 <dape> SUBTOPIC: Update TM and tm generation script
15:40:37 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1272
15:40:55 <dape> CA: Fix for other PR .. missing TM schema
15:41:34 <kaz> s/1272/1272 PR 1272 - Update TM and tm generation script/
15:41:35 <dape> SK: Looks good -> merging
15:42:03 <dape> SUBTOPIC: fix titles and descriptions type problem + default value entries for security
15:42:09 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1275
15:42:29 <dape> SK: We do have a bug in current editors draft
15:42:45 <dape> ... w.r.t. MultiLanguage and security parts
15:43:33 <dape> ... some more issues "with default" missing
15:44:11 <dape> ... the PR fixes the issues
15:44:56 <dape> MMC: I guess it broke when the rendered script was updated
15:45:16 <dape> SK: Took me a while to figure out the problem
15:45:57 <jkrhb> q+
15:46:58 <dape> JR: Short question: Is there a risk that this might happen again for next  version?
15:47:21 <dape> SK: Added some notes in render script
15:47:45 <dape> ... for 2.0 I think we might reconsider the render script process
15:48:03 <dape> ... highly depends on SPARQL
15:48:10 <dape> ... Victor is expert in
15:48:21 <dape> ... maybe we need to find another solution
15:48:30 <dape> ... for the moment it should do the job
15:49:02 <cris> q+
15:49:08 <dape> ack jkrhb
15:49:48 <dape> CA: Other downside is that render script depends on 2 libraries developed by Victor
15:50:17 <dape> ... I agree, for the future, we might look for other solutions
15:50:38 <dape> SK: Yes, let's talk about this once we work on 2.0
15:51:32 <dape> CA: JSON format / template could be an idea
15:52:08 <cris> ack c
15:54:09 <dape> SK: objections before merging?
15:54:20 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:54:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/17-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:54:31 <dape> ... none -> merging
15:54:49 <dape> SUBTOPIC: add additional sample terms in sample sections 7.1.1
15:54:53 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1277
15:55:06 <dape> SK: it is about semantic annotations
15:55:14 <kaz> s/1275/1275 PR 1275 - fix titles and descriptions type problem + default value entries for security in/
15:55:27 <dape> ... renamed example section
15:55:39 <dape> ... includes schema.org
15:55:40 <kaz> s/1277/1277 PR 1277 - add additional sample terms in sample sections 7.1.1/
15:56:29 <dape> ... new is software version (coming from schema.org)
15:56:50 <dape> ... it is just about examples
15:57:19 <dape> SK: comments?
15:57:50 <dape> Ege: Do we say that people can look into schema.org ?
15:58:22 <dape> ... to make sure that they can find new terms on schema.org
15:58:45 <dape> SK: Yes, we could point people to schema.org
15:59:22 <dape> Ege: Yes, we should avoid such issues coming up over and over again
15:59:47 <dape> ... people asking for keyword that exists already
15:59:54 <dape> SK: I got the idea
16:00:38 <dape> JR: Like room information?
16:00:57 <dape> Ege: yes, but there are many such issues
16:01:20 <dape> ... hence we should promote schema.org and others
16:01:22 <kaz> q?
16:01:37 <dape> SK: there is a nice database
16:01:39 <kaz> q+
16:01:51 <sebastian> https://lov.linkeddata.es/dataset/lov
16:02:30 <dape> SK: btw, we might want to change "s" prefix to "schema"
16:02:44 <dape> ... in the example
16:03:10 <jkrhb> q+
16:03:52 <dape> Kaz: In any case we should clarify our own documentation
16:04:07 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-dcat-2/ Data Catalog Vocabulary (DCAT) - Version 2
16:04:09 <dape> ... a data catalogue might be helpful
16:04:24 <dape> s/catalogue/catalog
16:04:31 <kaz> s/... a/kaz: the/
16:04:44 <kaz> s/might/specification might/
16:05:11 <dape> Kaz: no need for normative specification
16:05:21 <dape> ... but best practices might be useful
16:05:36 <dape> ... possibly for next charter period
16:05:41 <dape> SK: Agree
16:05:42 <kaz> s/next/the next/
16:07:08 <dape> q?
16:07:11 <kaz> ack k
16:07:22 <kaz> ack jk
16:07:34 <dape> JR: Not related to PR. Does it make sense to create FAQ?
16:07:51 <dape> ... to avoid such questions in the future
16:08:01 <dape> SK: General FAQ?
16:08:14 <dape> JR: Dealing with different topics
16:08:23 <dape> ... creation of new TDs
16:08:35 <dape> ... just something to keep in mind
16:08:57 <dape> SK: I like the idea but it is matter of work and who keeps it updated
16:09:11 <dape> Ege: We can also link the issues with "FAQ"
16:09:25 <dape> SK: Labeling makes sense
16:10:14 <dape> ... or discussion feature?
16:10:28 <dape> ... could talk about the topic in marketing task-force
16:10:31 <dape> Ege: will do
16:10:54 <dape> SK: objections to merge PR#1277?
16:10:59 <dape> ... none -> merged
16:11:17 <dape> SUPTOPIC: add security aspect in intro + small type fix
16:11:22 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1278
16:11:51 <dape> SK: security was missing in intro
16:12:12 <dape> ... is now added -> 5 aspects
16:13:02 <dape> ... fixed also another small bug
16:13:45 <dape> ... it seems a commit is missing
16:14:11 <dape> ... will have another look
16:14:56 <dape> SUBTOPIC: print *all* code parts on print
16:15:00 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1279
16:15:26 <dape> SK: at the moment the spec document is not very good for paper print-out
16:15:57 <dape> ... for tabs you miss the "other" content
16:16:09 <dape> ... DP added CSS for @media print
16:16:11 <kaz> s/1278/1278 PR 1278 - add security aspect in intro + small type fix/
16:16:42 <kaz> s/1279/1279 PR 1279 - print *all* code parts on print/
16:17:18 <dape> DP: Note, PR still misses changes for index.template.
16:19:12 <dape> ... tab header is show in the beginning... afterwards the content sections
16:19:23 <dape> SK: I see, let's revisit it next week
16:19:45 <McCool> (sorry, I have to drop.  I cross-referenced an issue in security-best-practices with TD PR1264 so we can follow up)
16:19:47 <dape> SUBTOPIC: Add changelog
16:19:53 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1282
16:20:08 <dape> SK: Ege lists changes
16:20:31 <dape> Ege: I went through spec document
16:20:40 <kaz> s/1282/1282 PR 1282 - Add changelog/
16:20:48 <dape> ... did not check the associated issue
16:21:22 <dape> SK: Yes, we should try to find out the related issues to get a even better overview
16:22:04 <dape> DP: Do we want to add the issues?
16:22:22 <dape> SK: Yes, but would suggest to merge the current state
16:22:42 <dape> CA: Thing model had multiple issues
16:22:49 <dape> ... How do we handle it?
16:23:13 <dape> SK: Listing multiple issues? separated by comma?
16:23:17 <dape> CA: OK
16:23:38 <dape> JR: Question: Sample TD
16:23:52 <dape> ... should every feature have a sample TD?
16:24:13 <dape> SK: It is more about testing / PlugFest
16:24:23 <kaz> q+
16:24:33 <jkrhb> q+
16:24:39 <dape> ... "Implementation" is also important since we need 2 of them
16:24:57 <dape> Ege: I think we can revisit it after testing is done
16:24:58 <jkrhb> q-
16:25:09 <dape> q?
16:25:22 <jkrhb> q+
16:25:42 <dape> Kaz: I was wondering about purpose of this proposed section.
16:25:59 <dape> ... changelog should simply list additional features
16:26:35 <dape> ... if we want to mark which feature is implemented by what.. is more implementation report
16:27:05 <dape> SK: I see the list as nice overview
16:27:10 <dape> ... what is "new"
16:27:25 <kaz> ack k
16:27:28 <kaz> q+
16:27:45 <dape> SK: Agree, it is not high priority
16:27:52 <dape> ... other metadata is nice to have
16:29:22 <dape> JR: For future versions ... should every PR add such an entry
16:29:37 <dape> ... would facilitate the work in the end
16:29:48 <dape> SK: Ege re-used old document to track new stuff
16:30:10 <dape> ... unfortunately this did not work out
16:30:26 <dape> ... but I agree, automatic logging would be nice
16:30:29 <dape> ack jkrhb
16:30:54 <dape> JR: Could use PR template to remind us
16:31:02 <dape> Ege: Yes, would really help
16:31:17 <dape> SK: +1
16:31:54 <dape> ... maybe using GH actions?
16:32:00 <dape> Ege: not sure if this is possible
16:32:15 <dape> ... easy way is to ask people
16:32:34 <dape> JR: Could be just be a check, like "feature" label
16:32:58 <dape> Ege: +1
16:33:13 <dape> ... should start with template and then look at GH action
16:33:33 <dape> ... I guess only Kaz can create such templates
16:33:43 <dape> SK: Ege, can you make a proposal?
16:33:59 <kaz> -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#changes-from-recommendation TD Editor's Draft - D. Recent Specification Changes
16:34:07 <dape> Kaz: Not sure if this approach is so good
16:34:29 <dape> ... we have been generating the changes list in the past
16:34:52 <dape> Ege: Who was doing it?
16:35:37 <dape> Kaz: Not sure if we need this automation
16:35:50 <dape> SK: this was manually created
16:36:12 <dape> ... auto-generation would be nice
16:36:27 <dape> ... no high priority tough
16:36:39 <dape> ... template helps already
16:37:27 <dape> Kaz: then everybody is required to create a small PR for each feature
16:38:09 <dape> Ege: I have some thoughts w.r.t. assertion tester
16:38:25 <dape> ... this assertion tester (changes) might help also
16:39:10 <dape> ... Ben F. was asking for new things
16:39:32 <dape> ... the PR was to make clear for everybody can see the changes
16:39:50 <dape> s/everybody can see/everybody to see
16:40:10 <dape> SK: the list is mainly about the features
16:40:17 <dape> ... new features
16:40:48 <dape> Kaz: we should not create this list separated from changelog section in the spec
16:41:24 <dape> ... information itself is ok
16:41:32 <dape> ... we need to maintain this list
16:41:55 <dape> ... maintenance should be done by assertion tester tool
16:42:19 <dape> SK: Ege, do you think we can align it with assertion tester?
16:42:30 <dape> Ege: It is in our todo list
16:43:12 <dape> Kaz: will talk about the tool from McCool on Friday
16:43:28 <dape> Ege: Can also merge for now but mention it is not optimal
16:43:44 <dape> Kaz: If the feature list is complete... we can merge
16:43:55 <dape> ... one more comment
16:44:19 <dape> ... text about TD maintenance version is confusing, should use v 1.1
16:44:28 <dape> Ege: was there before, but we can change it
16:44:59 <dape> Kaz: identical information at 2 places is confusing. We should have a single place
16:45:16 <dape> ... information should go into spec document
16:45:22 <jkrhb> q+
16:45:26 <dape> ... hence we don't really need this MD file
16:45:37 <dape> ack kaz
16:45:46 <jkrhb> q-
16:45:56 <dape> SK: Suggest to leave it as it is for now
16:47:11 <dape> ... I see Kaz point about multiple places
16:47:38 <dape> ... fear inconsistencies
16:48:10 <dape> SUBTOPIC: update webhooks example
16:48:15 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1283
16:48:33 <dape> SK: relates to issue https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/942
16:48:47 <kaz> s/1283/1283 PR 1283 - update webhooks example/
16:49:49 <dape> SK: combination cancellation container and unsubscribe op is confusing
16:50:08 <dape> ... PR creates 2 examples for webhooks
16:50:21 <dape> ... once is uses cancellation
16:50:39 <dape> s/once is uses/once it uses
16:51:22 <dape> ... the other time it uses uriVariables and unsubscribe resource is used
16:51:33 <Ege> q+
16:51:38 <dape> ... Hence, I simply separated the examples
16:51:58 <dape> ... I also gave short explanation
16:52:08 <dape> Ege: Still one issue
16:52:29 <dape> ... uriVariables in the TD is not the right way
16:52:48 <Ege> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#example-31
16:52:53 <dape> ... currently uriVariables describe query parameters
16:53:43 <dape> SK: I do recall such a discussion in the past
16:54:06 <dape> ... I think it should work as used in the example
16:55:01 <dape> Ege: IETF specification allows it... but I guess the TD is not clear
16:55:48 <dape> SK: I see
16:56:09 <dape> ... let's have another look and improve warning/references in the TD spec
16:56:32 <Ege> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#interactionaffordance is the part I meant
16:56:48 <dape> SK: Ege, can you have a look?
16:56:58 <dape> Ege: Yes
16:57:14 <dape> ... I guess we need another example also in the TD
16:57:32 <dape> SK: Thanks!
16:57:53 <dape> SUBTOPIC: add a note about observe behavior
16:57:57 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1284
16:58:04 <dape> SK: coming from scripting
16:58:24 <dape> ... I added a note
16:59:48 <dape> DP: Need to take a close look
16:59:59 <dape> SK: Okay, let's postpone it to next week
17:00:28 <dape> CA: Quick comment: makes sense
17:00:41 <dape> ... just worried about recommendation
17:01:12 <dape> ... no guarantee ... since someone can change the value between reading and observing
17:01:27 <dape> ... will add a comment
17:01:52 <dape> SK: I see
17:02:07 <dape> ... "recommendation" is not like a MUST
17:02:14 <kaz> s/1284/1284 PR 1284 - add a note about observe behavior/
17:02:56 <dape> TOPIC: Issues for v1.1
17:03:38 <dape> SK: would like to point everyone to https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1276
17:04:23 <dape> Kaz: Should contact also PLH besides Ralph
17:05:30 <kaz> [adjourned]
17:05:34 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:05:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/17-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
17:33:26 <sebastia_> sebastia_ has joined #wot-td
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