IRC log of apa on 2021-11-17

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15:41:11 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/11/17-apa-irc
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RRSAgent, make logs public
15:41:16 [trackbot]
Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference
15:41:16 [trackbot]
Date: 17 November 2021
15:41:16 [janina]
agenda?
15:41:22 [janina]
zakim, clear agenda
15:41:22 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
15:41:26 [janina]
Chair: Janina
15:41:26 [janina]
agenda+ Agenda Review & Announcements
15:41:26 [janina]
agenda+ CfC on CAPTCHA https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-apa-admin/2021Nov/0000.html
15:41:29 [janina]
agenda+ Task Force Updates
15:41:32 [janina]
agenda+ FAST Update
15:41:34 [janina]
agenda+ New Charters Review https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22
15:41:37 [janina]
agenda+ A11y Review Comment Tracker https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review
15:41:40 [janina]
agenda+ CSS Update https://github.com/w3c/css-a11y/issues
15:41:43 [janina]
agenda+ new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html
15:41:45 [janina]
agenda+ Actions Checkin (Specs) https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/open
15:41:48 [janina]
agenda+ Dangling Spec Review Cleanup: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Category:Spec_Review_Assigned
15:41:51 [janina]
agenda+ Other Business
15:41:53 [janina]
agenda+ be done
15:48:00 [janina]
regrets: Becky_Gibson, John_Foliot, Gottfried_Zimmerman, David_Fazio
16:58:09 [IrfanA]
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present+
16:59:50 [anevins]
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17:01:58 [anevins_]
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17:03:16 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lionel_Wolberger has joined #apa
17:03:20 [Lionel_Wolberger]
present+
17:03:23 [Fredrik]
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17:03:27 [Lionel_Wolberger]
present?
17:03:30 [Fredrik]
present+
17:03:31 [Lionel_Wolberger]
q?
17:03:35 [Lionel_Wolberger]
agenda?
17:03:38 [anevins_]
present+
17:03:48 [Fredrik]
scribe: Fredrik
17:03:49 [janina]
present+
17:03:57 [Lionel_Wolberger]
scribe: Lionel_Wolberger
17:04:20 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, next item
17:04:20 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Announcements -- taken up [from janina]
17:05:35 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: Happy Thanksgiving to our American participants, no meeting next week Nov 24th
17:05:44 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, next item
17:05:44 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- CfC on CAPTCHA https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-apa-admin/2021Nov/0000.html -- taken up [from janina]
17:06:17 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: Reminder to APA members, cfc open for the Captcha note
17:06:29 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... updating the note with some work from Cloudflare
17:07:01 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... Our consensus is, we need a good Turing test (bots are bad), but the current Captcha fails accessibility and fails for other reasons
17:07:23 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... We can go beyond the 'note' which is only our opinion
17:07:24 [Fredrik]
q+
17:07:32 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... and turn this into a statement by the W3C
17:07:58 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... this new process to elevate the NOTE to a STATEMENT, as well wanting to add more info regarding the CLoudflare updates
17:08:19 [anevins_]
q+
17:08:57 [mike_beganyi]
mike_beganyi has joined #apa
17:09:08 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... process: (1) publish fpwd of this note, then (2,3...) you can read in the cfc in email
17:09:09 [janina]
q?
17:09:13 [janina]
ack fr
17:09:35 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Fredrik: Is cloudflare interested in being included in our process, and if so, how?
17:09:40 [mike_beganyi]
present+
17:10:50 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: Cloudflare did show interest in being involved. Let's complete our cfc then reach out (if we decide we want to reach out)
17:11:12 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... let's go one step at a time. First complete the cfc, then get consensus
17:11:24 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... likely will also push to have them become W3C members
17:11:35 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Fredrik: What are they proposing?
17:12:02 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: Research Questions has pulled together the technical process they are suggesting, using the W3C API for validating the person,
17:12:23 [Fredrik]
q-
17:12:32 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... we will likely also involve Lionel to evaluate the authorization and authentication process as he has experience in identity issues
17:12:49 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... cloudflare has data on how captcha failures are hurting e-commerce
17:12:57 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... these facts will be super useful to add to the paper
17:13:05 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... good captcha is another "curb-cut"
17:13:07 [janina]
q?
17:13:41 [janina]
ack and
17:14:08 [Lionel_Wolberger]
anevins_: We recently audited Captcha against 2.1
17:16:33 [Lionel_Wolberger]
MichaelC: We will add Andrew to Research Questions
17:17:03 [MichaelC]
http://github/w3c/captcha-accessibility/
17:17:08 [kirkwood]
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17:17:08 [Lionel_Wolberger]
anevins_: Please put a link to the git for this Captcha/a11y repo, and the preview
17:17:30 [MichaelC]
s|http://github/w3c/captcha-accessibility/|https://github.com/w3c/captcha-accessibility/|
17:18:09 [MichaelC]
https://w3c.github.io/captcha-accessibility/
17:19:08 [Lionel_Wolberger]
anevins_: Regarding the audit. Google Recaptcha version _ against WCAG 2.1 AA
17:19:34 [Lionel_Wolberger]
q?
17:19:38 [Lionel_Wolberger]
ack anevins_
17:20:24 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: This note on captcha was reviewed by a Google engineer and they did not find issues with it
17:20:58 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, next item
17:20:58 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Task Force Updates -- taken up [from janina]
17:23:00 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: Research Questions has a lot of documents in the air
17:23:09 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... is ready to take the Captcha note onto their 'plate'
17:23:29 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... in addition to the XAUR, remote meetings, nat'l language, (and janina listed five others)
17:23:52 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: Personalization is doing well with its i18n issue
17:25:40 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lionel_Wolberger: Yes, we got the symbols thanks to Steve Lee
17:26:32 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: P11n (pronunciation) is doing a panel presentation on the specification
17:26:38 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... TPAC gave feedback as well
17:27:16 [Lionel_Wolberger]
q?
17:27:52 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: COGA working on providing feedback on RQTF documents and are working to meet the timeline
17:28:32 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... COGA's desire to work on mental health issues likely requires an update to their work statement
17:28:50 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... they are gathering potential issues that may be useful to address
17:28:55 [anevins_]
Regarding the audit. Google Recaptcha version 3 against WCAG 2.1 AA
17:29:03 [janina]
q?
17:29:11 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, next item
17:29:11 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- FAST Update -- taken up [from janina]
17:29:44 [Lionel_Wolberger]
MichaelC: Framework for Accessible Specification of Technologies (FAST) is a bit stalled
17:29:51 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... not much to report in the last week
17:30:04 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, next item
17:30:04 [Zakim]
agendum 4 was just opened, Lionel_Wolberger
17:30:12 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, close this item
17:30:12 [Zakim]
agendum 4 closed
17:30:13 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:30:13 [Zakim]
5. New Charters Review https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22 [from janina]
17:30:23 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, next item
17:30:23 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- New Charters Review https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22 -- taken up [from janina]
17:30:52 [MichaelC]
https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues/291
17:31:00 [MichaelC]
https://w3c.github.io/secondscreen-charter/
17:31:34 [Lionel_Wolberger]
MichaelC: Second Screen Working Group
17:31:46 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: That group has high turnover
17:32:13 [Lionel_Wolberger]
MichaelC: Adding "define APIs to query windows positions and position windows on multiple screens" and more...
17:32:31 [Lionel_Wolberger]
q+
17:33:22 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: We want this spec to speak about "discovering devices" and not just displays
17:34:10 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... "second screen" does not mean a second SCREEN, it means multiple devices
17:34:38 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... "second screen" is a shorthand idiom to speed discussion, such as "watching a movie"
17:34:50 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... we know it's not a movie, it's an idiom to simplify discussion
17:35:17 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... second screen refers to many different devices
17:35:43 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lionel_Wolberger: The spec says " e-book readers, phones, tablets, laptops, auto displays, and electronic signs."
17:36:01 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... allow these devices to use secondary audio and video presentation devices available in the local environment, attached by wired connections or remotely with wireless, peer-to-peer media.
17:37:07 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... can you tell us more about these multiple screens
17:37:53 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: In the Media Accessibility User Requirements we spoke about how the alternative representations (such as captions, or audio descriptions)
17:38:01 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... will often be available on other devices
17:38:30 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... in a Broadway theater the audio descriptions can be made available by wifi to people's personal android devices
17:38:39 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... these secondary devices are critical
17:39:18 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... refreshable braille displays, bluetooth headphones, chromecast devices, any technology that will participate in consuming a media resource
17:39:35 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... the primary display carries the primary, and the secondary can carry the secondary
17:39:57 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lionel_Wolberger: The name "second screen" obfuscates
17:40:11 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: But the alternative name was really long, awkward and hard to remember
17:40:46 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... like blind people 'watch TV' using the proximate meaning
17:41:25 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... using an even tempered scale metaphor--losing the perfect fifth enabled us to integrate more notes and melodies
17:41:44 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... A good moment to remind people about the MAUR (Media Accessibility User Requirements)
17:41:52 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... this was the first *AUR
17:42:05 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... HTML5 brought the media support that APA asked for
17:42:14 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... with the exception of one item
17:42:34 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... we accomplished this with use cases, user scenarios, a markup technology that could support an extensible list of these support version
17:43:23 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... we invented a term which we called the PRIMARY video resource and then the ALTERNATIVE
17:43:33 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... the video provided as video and the video provided as text
17:43:48 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... we are still developing what we have developed for HTML 5
17:43:56 [janina]
q?
17:44:04 [janina]
ack li
17:44:06 [Lionel_Wolberger]
ack Lionel_Wolberger
17:44:10 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, next item
17:44:10 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- A11y Review Comment Tracker https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review -- taken up [from janina]
17:45:32 [Lionel_Wolberger]
MichaelC: Nothing new this week
17:45:40 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, close this item
17:45:40 [Zakim]
agendum 6 closed
17:45:41 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:45:41 [Zakim]
7. CSS Update https://github.com/w3c/css-a11y/issues [from janina]
17:45:42 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, next item
17:45:42 [Zakim]
agendum 7 -- CSS Update https://github.com/w3c/css-a11y/issues -- taken up [from janina]
17:46:48 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: Need a new representative from CSS. Amy has moved on, thanks to Amy for the splendid job she did keeping us synchronized
17:47:26 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... We have spoken with the CSS chairs and will follow-up after Thanksgiving
17:47:29 [janina]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-apa/2021Nov/0016.html
17:48:33 [Lionel_Wolberger]
CCSS highligh API
17:48:34 [Lionel_Wolberger]
An example: In data analysis, highlights are used to indicate any number of things - errors, outliers, or like the example in my comment in the issue: user sentiments. Highlights are also used in data analysis for medical literature to highligh medical conditions or symptom keywords.
17:50:27 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Issue 6498 on how the CSS highlight API is exposed to the accessibility tree ( https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6498).
17:51:04 [janina]
q?
17:51:26 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: Do we agree to track this?
17:51:33 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... No one disagrees.
17:52:15 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... If a site associates certain color highlights with certain semantic meanings, that is something that APA would be interested in
17:52:34 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Fredrik: Personalization would seem to be in scope of semantics like this
17:53:20 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: Maybe we can write an accessibility section that points to Personalization, where we could specify how a highlight color is associated with a color
17:54:00 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lionel_Wolberger: ARIA-labelled_by could handle this
17:54:15 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: But this is wider than just assistive technology, it would be helpful to keep it in Personalization scope
17:55:24 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... colorization is becoming more sophisticated and deserves to be associated with semantics
17:58:13 [Lionel_Wolberger]
MichaelC: "Figure out how highlights are exposed to the accessibility tree" is in our tracker
17:58:17 [Lionel_Wolberger]
... shall I block?
17:58:22 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: Let's block
17:58:42 [MichaelC]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6498
17:58:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/17-apa-minutes.html MichaelC
18:00:16 [Lionel_Wolberger]
zakim, next item
18:00:16 [Zakim]
agendum 8 -- new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html -- taken up [from janina]
18:00:50 [Lionel_Wolberger]
janina: Thanks everyone for a productive meeting, see you in two weeks.
18:01:30 [Lionel_Wolberger]
r symptom keywords. [19:50] <Lionel_Wolberger> Issue 6498 on how the CSS highlight API is exposed to the accessibility tree ( https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6498). [19:50] * trackbot doesn't understand that ISSUE command. [19:51] <janina> q? [19:51] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue [19:51] <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Do we agree to track this? [19:51] <Lionel_Wolberger> ... No one disagrees. [19:52] <Lionel_Wo[CUT]
18:01:40 [Lionel_Wolberger]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:01:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/17-apa-minutes.html Lionel_Wolberger
18:06:50 [MichaelC_]
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18:12:11 [janina]
janina has changed the topic to: APA Weekly Teleconference; Wednesday 1 December at 1700Z
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18:30:10 [MichaelC]
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