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15:41:16 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference
15:41:16 <trackbot> Date: 17 November 2021
15:41:16 <janina> agenda?
15:41:22 <janina> zakim, clear agenda
15:41:22 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:41:26 <janina> Chair:  Janina
15:41:26 <janina> agenda+ Agenda Review & Announcements
15:41:26 <janina> agenda+ CfC on CAPTCHA https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-apa-admin/2021Nov/0000.html
15:41:29 <janina> agenda+ Task Force Updates
15:41:32 <janina> agenda+ FAST Update
15:41:34 <janina> agenda+ New Charters Review https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22
15:41:37 <janina> agenda+ A11y Review Comment Tracker https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review
15:41:40 <janina> agenda+ CSS Update  https://github.com/w3c/css-a11y/issues
15:41:43 <janina> agenda+ new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html
15:41:45 <janina> agenda+ Actions Checkin (Specs) https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/open
15:41:48 <janina> agenda+ Dangling Spec Review Cleanup: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Category:Spec_Review_Assigned
15:41:51 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
15:41:53 <janina> agenda+ be done
15:48:00 <janina>  regrets: Becky_Gibson, John_Foliot, Gottfried_Zimmerman, David_Fazio
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16:58:17 <IrfanA> present+
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17:03:16 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger has joined #apa
17:03:20 <Lionel_Wolberger> present+
17:03:23 <Fredrik> Fredrik has joined #apa
17:03:27 <Lionel_Wolberger> present?
17:03:30 <Fredrik>  present+
17:03:31 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
17:03:35 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda?
17:03:38 <anevins_> present+
17:03:48 <Fredrik> scribe: Fredrik
17:03:49 <janina> present+
17:03:57 <Lionel_Wolberger> scribe: Lionel_Wolberger
17:04:20 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
17:04:20 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Announcements -- taken up [from janina]
17:05:35 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Happy Thanksgiving to our American participants, no meeting next week Nov 24th
17:05:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
17:05:44 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- CfC on CAPTCHA https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-apa-admin/2021Nov/0000.html -- taken up [from janina]
17:06:17 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Reminder to APA members, cfc open for the Captcha note
17:06:29 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... updating the note with some work from Cloudflare
17:07:01 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Our consensus is, we need a good Turing test (bots are bad), but the current Captcha fails accessibility and fails for other reasons
17:07:23 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... We can go beyond the 'note' which is only our opinion
17:07:24 <Fredrik> q+
17:07:32 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... and turn this into a statement by the W3C
17:07:58 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... this new process to elevate the NOTE to a STATEMENT, as well wanting to add more info regarding the CLoudflare updates
17:08:19 <anevins_> q+
17:08:57 <mike_beganyi> mike_beganyi has joined #apa
17:09:08 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... process: (1) publish fpwd of this note, then (2,3...) you can read in the cfc in email
17:09:09 <janina> q?
17:09:13 <janina> ack fr
17:09:35 <Lionel_Wolberger> Fredrik: Is cloudflare interested in being included in our process, and if so, how?
17:09:40 <mike_beganyi> present+
17:10:50 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Cloudflare did show interest in being involved. Let's complete our cfc then reach out (if we decide we want to reach out)
17:11:12 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... let's go one step at a time. First complete the cfc, then get consensus
17:11:24 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... likely will also push to have them become W3C members
17:11:35 <Lionel_Wolberger> Fredrik: What are they proposing?
17:12:02 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Research Questions has pulled together the technical process they are suggesting, using the W3C API for validating the person,
17:12:23 <Fredrik> q-
17:12:32 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we will likely also involve Lionel to evaluate the authorization and authentication process as he has experience in identity issues
17:12:49 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... cloudflare has data on how captcha failures are hurting e-commerce
17:12:57 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... these facts will be super useful to add to the paper
17:13:05 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... good captcha is another "curb-cut"
17:13:07 <janina> q?
17:13:41 <janina> ack and
17:14:08 <Lionel_Wolberger> anevins_: We recently audited Captcha against 2.1
17:16:33 <Lionel_Wolberger> MichaelC: We will add Andrew to Research Questions
17:17:03 <MichaelC> http://github/w3c/captcha-accessibility/
17:17:08 <kirkwood> kirkwood has joined #APA
17:17:08 <Lionel_Wolberger> anevins_: Please put a link to the git for this Captcha/a11y repo, and the preview
17:17:30 <MichaelC> s|http://github/w3c/captcha-accessibility/|https://github.com/w3c/captcha-accessibility/|
17:18:09 <MichaelC> https://w3c.github.io/captcha-accessibility/
17:19:08 <Lionel_Wolberger> anevins_: Regarding the audit. Google Recaptcha version _ against WCAG 2.1 AA
17:19:34 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
17:19:38 <Lionel_Wolberger> ack anevins_
17:20:24 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: This note on captcha was reviewed by a Google engineer and they did not find issues with it
17:20:58 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
17:20:58 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Task Force Updates -- taken up [from janina]
17:23:00 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Research Questions has a lot of documents in the air
17:23:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... is ready to take the Captcha note onto their 'plate'
17:23:29 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... in addition to the XAUR, remote meetings, nat'l language, (and janina listed five others)
17:23:52 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Personalization is doing well with its i18n issue
17:25:40 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: Yes, we got the symbols thanks to Steve Lee
17:26:32 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: P11n (pronunciation) is doing a panel presentation on the specification
17:26:38 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... TPAC gave feedback as well
17:27:16 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
17:27:52 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: COGA working on providing feedback on RQTF documents and are working to meet the timeline
17:28:32 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... COGA's desire to work on mental health issues likely requires an update to their work statement
17:28:50 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... they are gathering potential issues that may be useful to address
17:28:55 <anevins_> Regarding the audit. Google Recaptcha version 3 against WCAG 2.1 AA
17:29:03 <janina> q?
17:29:11 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
17:29:11 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- FAST Update -- taken up [from janina]
17:29:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> MichaelC: Framework for Accessible Specification of Technologies (FAST) is a bit stalled
17:29:51 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... not much to report in the last week
17:30:04 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
17:30:04 <Zakim> agendum 4 was just opened, Lionel_Wolberger
17:30:12 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, close this item
17:30:12 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
17:30:13 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:30:13 <Zakim> 5. New Charters Review https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22 [from janina]
17:30:23 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
17:30:23 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- New Charters Review https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22 -- taken up [from janina]
17:30:52 <MichaelC> https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues/291
17:31:00 <MichaelC> https://w3c.github.io/secondscreen-charter/
17:31:34 <Lionel_Wolberger> MichaelC: Second Screen Working Group
17:31:46 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: That group has high turnover
17:32:13 <Lionel_Wolberger> MichaelC: Adding "define APIs to query windows positions and position windows on multiple screens" and more...
17:32:31 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
17:33:22 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: We want this spec to speak about "discovering devices" and not just displays
17:34:10 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... "second screen" does not mean a second SCREEN, it means multiple devices
17:34:38 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... "second screen" is a shorthand idiom to speed discussion, such as "watching a movie"
17:34:50 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we know it's not a movie, it's an idiom to simplify discussion
17:35:17 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... second screen refers to many different devices
17:35:43 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: The spec says " e-book readers, phones, tablets, laptops, auto displays, and electronic signs."
17:36:01 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... allow these devices to use secondary audio and video presentation devices available in the local environment, attached by wired connections or remotely with wireless, peer-to-peer media.
17:37:07 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... can you tell us more about these multiple screens
17:37:53 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: In the Media Accessibility User Requirements we spoke about how the alternative representations (such as captions, or audio descriptions)
17:38:01 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... will often be available on other devices
17:38:30 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... in a Broadway theater the audio descriptions can be made available by wifi to people's personal android devices
17:38:39 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... these secondary devices are critical
17:39:18 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... refreshable braille displays, bluetooth headphones, chromecast devices, any technology that will participate in consuming a media resource
17:39:35 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... the primary display carries the primary, and the secondary can carry the secondary
17:39:57 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: The name "second screen" obfuscates
17:40:11 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: But the alternative name was really long, awkward and hard to remember
17:40:46 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... like blind people 'watch TV' using the proximate meaning
17:41:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... using an even tempered scale metaphor--losing the perfect fifth enabled us to integrate more notes and melodies
17:41:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... A good moment to remind people about the MAUR (Media Accessibility User Requirements)
17:41:52 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... this was the first *AUR
17:42:05 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... HTML5 brought the media support that APA asked for
17:42:14 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... with the exception of one item
17:42:34 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we accomplished this with use cases, user scenarios, a markup technology that could support an extensible list of these support version
17:43:23 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we invented a term which we called the PRIMARY video resource and then the ALTERNATIVE
17:43:33 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... the video provided as video and the video provided as text
17:43:48 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we are still developing what we have developed for HTML 5
17:43:56 <janina> q?
17:44:04 <janina> ack li
17:44:06 <Lionel_Wolberger> ack Lionel_Wolberger
17:44:10 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
17:44:10 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- A11y Review Comment Tracker https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review -- taken up [from janina]
17:45:32 <Lionel_Wolberger> MichaelC: Nothing new this week
17:45:40 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, close this item
17:45:40 <Zakim> agendum 6 closed
17:45:41 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:45:41 <Zakim> 7. CSS Update  https://github.com/w3c/css-a11y/issues [from janina]
17:45:42 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
17:45:42 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- CSS Update  https://github.com/w3c/css-a11y/issues -- taken up [from janina]
17:46:48 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Need a new representative from CSS. Amy has moved on, thanks to Amy for the splendid job she did keeping us synchronized
17:47:26 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... We have spoken with the CSS chairs and will follow-up after Thanksgiving
17:47:29 <janina> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-apa/2021Nov/0016.html
17:48:33 <Lionel_Wolberger> CCSS highligh API
17:48:34 <Lionel_Wolberger> An example: In data analysis, highlights are used to indicate any number  of things - errors, outliers, or like the example in my comment in the  issue: user sentiments. Highlights are also used in data analysis for  medical literature to highligh medical conditions or symptom keywords.
17:50:27 <Lionel_Wolberger> Issue 6498 on how the CSS  highlight API is exposed to the accessibility tree ( https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6498).
17:51:04 <janina> q?
17:51:26 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Do we agree to track this?
17:51:33 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... No one disagrees.
17:52:15 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... If a site associates certain color highlights with certain semantic meanings, that is something that APA would be interested in
17:52:34 <Lionel_Wolberger> Fredrik: Personalization would seem to be in scope of semantics like this
17:53:20 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Maybe we can write an accessibility section that points to Personalization, where we could specify how a highlight color is associated with a color
17:54:00 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: ARIA-labelled_by could handle this
17:54:15 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: But this is wider than just assistive technology, it would be helpful to keep it in Personalization scope
17:55:24 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... colorization is becoming more sophisticated and deserves to be associated with semantics
17:58:13 <Lionel_Wolberger> MichaelC: "Figure out how highlights are exposed to the accessibility tree" is in our tracker
17:58:17 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... shall I block?
17:58:22 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Let's block
17:58:42 <MichaelC> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6498
17:58:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/17-apa-minutes.html MichaelC
18:00:16 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
18:00:16 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html -- taken up [from janina]
18:00:50 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Thanks everyone for a productive meeting, see you in two weeks.
18:01:30 <Lionel_Wolberger> r symptom keywords. [19:50] <Lionel_Wolberger> Issue 6498 on how the CSS  highlight API is exposed to the accessibility tree ( https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6498). [19:50] * trackbot doesn't understand that ISSUE command. [19:51] <janina> q? [19:51] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue [19:51] <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Do we agree to track this? [19:51] <Lionel_Wolberger> ... No one disagrees. [19:52] <Lionel_Wo[CUT]
18:01:40 <Lionel_Wolberger> rrsagent, make minutes
18:01:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/17-apa-minutes.html Lionel_Wolberger
18:06:50 <MichaelC_> MichaelC_ has joined #apa
18:12:11 <janina> janina has changed the topic to: APA Weekly Teleconference; Wednesday 1 December at 1700Z
18:24:50 <micro__> micro__ has joined #apa
18:30:10 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #apa