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15:58:41 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/11/12-pbgsc-irc
15:58:44 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:58:46 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
15:59:00 <Ralph> present: Daihei, George, Ivan, Ralph, Bill
15:59:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:59:05 <ivan> present+ george, daihei, ivan, ralph
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16:00:11 <shiestyle> present+
16:00:34 <tzviya> present+
16:00:46 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:00:56 <dauwhe> present+
16:01:27 <avneeshsingh> avneeshsingh has joined #pbgsc
16:01:51 <avneeshsingh> present+
16:02:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
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16:02:55 <Ralph> scribe+
16:02:57 <Ralph> chair: Tzviya
16:03:00 <liisamk> present+
16:03:18 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2021Nov/0000.html
16:03:32 <Ralph> topic: Responding to feedback about the structure of the Publishing Activity
16:03:52 <Ralph> Tzviya: short agenda; we wanted to talk about the feedback from Rick Johnson in the EPUB.next session
16:04:04 <Ralph> ... Rick has been around EPUB for a long time
16:04:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:04:11 <Ralph>    "Coming back into this from being away, we have three groups
16:04:11 <Ralph>    with a lot of overlap, sometimes it’s three times as much work
16:04:11 <Ralph>    to attend all three."
16:04:12 <Ralph>    -- https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-epub.html
16:04:36 <Ralph> Tzviya: we wanted to talk about your perspectives and what we can do to alleviate the "triple workload" feeling that we all feel
16:04:53 <Ralph> ... we're also hearing a bit of concern about the ways our groups are working, so we wanted a brainstorming session
16:05:06 <Ralph> ... do you feel this as well?  does it hit home for you?
16:05:11 <Ralph> George: yes
16:05:18 <Ralph> Tzviya: I'm seeing other nods
16:05:30 <Ralph> ... some of this is because IDPF and W3C are structured differently
16:05:37 <Ralph> ... we do incubation in Community Groups
16:05:56 <wendyreid> present+
16:06:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:06:32 <Ralph> ... historically there had been Working Groups that incubated Recommendations that then didn't get traction
16:06:38 <Ralph> ... so incubation was moved to CGs
16:06:54 <Ralph> ... I think we have some talking to do around our CG
16:07:12 <avneeshsingh> q+
16:07:19 <Ralph> ... what are your ideas about how the Business Group and Working Group are working?
16:07:22 <tzviya> ack Ralph
16:08:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:08:59 <dauwhe> Ralph: CSSWG has a good history of incubating in the group; this is not true in epub
16:09:02 <dauwhe> scribe+ dauwhe
16:09:17 <wendyreid> q+
16:09:26 <dauwhe> ... our lack of success with first PWG is evidence
16:09:42 <dauwhe> ... so we need multiple groups, we can't brainstorm/incubate in WG
16:09:58 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:10:02 <dauwhe> ... CG and WG can work as closely together as they wish
16:10:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:10:15 <dauwhe> ... some groups are chartered to say that their ideas come from a named CG
16:10:38 <tzviya> q+ to talk about CG success
16:10:44 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:11:52 <wendyreid> ... whether that helps the triple workload problem--it may not make much difference
16:11:52 <wendyreid> ... the problem of the vitality of the CG... we need to increase the pipeline between business needs and incubation
16:11:52 <wendyreid> ... the cg has tech people who like to come up with solutions to problems
16:11:58 <wendyreid> scribe+ wendyreid
16:12:06 <wendyreid> ... whether that needs more direction from your businesses... I don't know
16:12:21 <wendyreid> ... the BG concept came from a perspective that there would be different individuals who would be interested in a conversation at the business needs level
16:12:31 <wendyreid> ... rather than the technical level
16:12:35 <liisamk> q+
16:12:39 <tzviya> ack av
16:12:59 <Ralph> Avneesh: I don't think the workload is huge
16:13:26 <Ralph> ... if we combine incubation and WG then incubation comes onlly from W3C Members
16:13:35 <Ralph> ... whereas the CG gets incubation from anywhere
16:13:42 <Ralph> ... finalization happens in the WG
16:14:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:14:06 <Ralph> ... small companies, self-publish authors, etc. can all come together in the CG to brainstorm
16:14:12 <Ralph> ... there's a logic to keeping the WG separate
16:14:25 <Ralph> ... on the CG and BG, I'm assuming W3C is not so much bothered by the BG fee
16:14:40 <Ralph> ... if that is the case then it makes sense to combine the BG and CG
16:14:41 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:14:53 <Ralph> ... it's all driven by the business and technologies together
16:15:04 <Ralph> ... keeping them in separate boxes is making us disfunctional
16:15:04 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:15:13 <Ralph> ... it would be better to have them together
16:15:13 <Bill_Kasdorf> q-
16:15:35 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
16:15:47 <tzviya> +1 avneeshsingh
16:15:52 <Ralph> ... W3C might evaluate whether the fee is costing us the participation of the publishing industry
16:16:05 <Ralph> Wendy: speaking as a WG chair, I agree with Rick
16:16:17 <Ralph> ... the EPUB WG is doing a lot; we have 3 active TFs and are working to get to CR
16:16:34 <Ralph> ... it's a lot of work but it makes sense; we're making progress on the things we're focusing on
16:16:45 <Ralph> ... but I'd like us to have better integration with our other groups
16:16:49 <dauwhe> q+
16:17:00 <Ralph> ... sometimes we say "it would be great to have more than one publisher in this discussion"
16:17:10 <Ralph> ... and at other times "we really need to talk with tool vendors"
16:17:17 <tzviya> present+ Zheng_Xu
16:17:19 <Ralph> ... the publishing industry is unique in many ways
16:17:33 <Ralph> ... we have a huge number of publishers and tool vendors who are quite small
16:17:47 <Ralph> ... they would need an absolutely excellent reason to pay the Membership fees
16:18:04 <Ralph> ... if we merge the CG and BGs we'd have a larger entity who would be representative of our community
16:18:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:18:13 <Ralph> ... where the WG could go with questions
16:18:25 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:18:27 <Ralph> ... and propose ideas that are ready to take to full specification
16:18:49 <Ralph> ... I'm tapped-out on meetings and haven't been able to attend as many BG meetings as I want
16:19:00 <Ralph> ... I read the minutes
16:19:05 <George> q+
16:19:11 <Ralph> ... and I see valuable discussions that need to happen
16:19:14 <tzviya> ack me
16:19:14 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about CG success
16:19:18 <Ralph> ... but aren't the way things are divided now
16:19:26 <Ralph> Tzviya: +1 to Avneesh and Wendy
16:19:33 <Ralph> ... the CG has been struggling for lack of participation
16:19:50 <Ralph> ... there is great discussion in the BG but that isn't being channeled into the CG
16:20:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:20:21 <Ralph> ... if there is something we particularly need to focus on for EPUB.next that needs to be filed in GitHub
16:20:42 <Ralph> ... Daihei had a good conversation in the Asian-time BG meeting; those ideas need to be filed
16:21:01 <Ralph> ... we need action items from the BG flow into the CG and ultimately escalate to the WG
16:21:19 <Ralph> ... we're at a point where we'll need to start writing a new charter for EPUB.next
16:21:22 <wendyreid> q+
16:21:25 <Ralph> ... we need to understand what we need to focus on
16:21:28 <tzviya> ack liisamk
16:21:32 <Ralph> ... we need to make this call a working call
16:21:44 <Ralph> Liisa: I have had subsequent conversation with Rick
16:21:57 <Ralph> ... I reached out to tlk with him about how he'd like to engage
16:22:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:22:33 <Ralph> ... one suggestion he gave me is that he feels that we, as a community withing W3C, are missing a less-formal networking way to engage in business conversations
16:22:47 <Ralph> ... he noted that piracy is a big issue in the market he deals with
16:23:07 <Ralph> ... I responded that we've talked about that a few times in the BG and there's a lot of sensitiity about that topic
16:23:20 <Ralph> ... he may bring that to a future community meeting
16:23:53 <Ralph> ... there are business people who know the business issues but don't know how to take the next steps to move it forward
16:24:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:24:09 <Ralph> ... one way is to put someone in the CG who will take the issue forward
16:24:24 <Ralph> ... e.g. in FXL, I haven't been able to find a resource myself
16:24:46 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:24:46 <Ralph> ... nor have I found a way to ask the CG if there's someone else who can it forward
16:24:49 <tzviya> q?
16:24:54 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
16:25:08 <Ralph> Dave: we have tremendous resource problems
16:25:20 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:25:31 <Ralph> ... I find it quite telling that the largest trade publisher in the world can't provide resources to work on a technical issue
16:25:44 <Ralph> ... but our time scales are very different from those of browsers
16:25:54 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:26:00 <Ralph> ... the browser vendors have an aligment of their techical resources with the engineering schools
16:26:05 <Ralph> ... we cannot do anything like that
16:26:20 <Ralph> ... maybe the most recent feature that was added to EPUB was FXL in 2012
16:26:44 <Ralph> ... almost all of the big reading systems have a very small footprint in standards
16:26:57 <Ralph> ... also, I think we're conflating standards organizations and trade associations
16:27:05 <tzviya> q+ to talk about networking missing for all of us in pandemic
16:27:06 <Ralph> ... that's one feature of IDPF that was lost in the transition
16:27:20 <tzviya> +1 to dauwhe
16:27:35 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:27:37 <Ralph> ... we have some problems that can't be solved within this organizational context
16:28:02 <Ralph> Bill: from the recruiting perspective I have a couple of things that seem obvious but turn out to not be true ...
16:28:17 <Ralph> ... I often stress to send different people to different parts of the work
16:28:31 <Ralph> ... you get the most from Membership if you send different people to the different groups
16:28:46 <Ralph> ... that seems an obvious pitch but the reality is that people still keep sending just one person
16:28:54 <Ralph> ... a small minority have sent a couple of people
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16:29:14 <Ralph> ... it's extremely useful from a recruiting pov to have the 3 groups; the cost of WG participation is a barrier
16:29:47 <Ralph> ... so the BG sounds like a logical alternative, but in fact I've not been successful in getting any org to join for a BG
16:30:05 <Ralph> ... all my my recruits are either Members or working in the CG
16:30:07 <tzviya> ack ge
16:30:13 <Ralph> ... I do not feel the BG helps my ability to recruit
16:30:48 <Ralph> George: I like Liisa's suggestion that the BG charter a TF with a narrow objective, one leader, who have their own meetings and bring something back to the BG
16:31:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:31:19 <Ralph> ... we saw this 2.5 years ago when Vitalsource started to display a11y metadata and was displaying the raw Schema.org data
16:31:31 <Ralph> ... that led to a very successful document that was just published in September
16:31:45 <Ralph> ... I'm doing 4 presentations this week: 2 for NISO and 2 for Accessing Higher Ground
16:32:04 <Ralph> ... it would be great if the wider community knew of and could benefit from that marketing we are doing
16:32:23 <Ralph> ... but we don't communicate that within W3C; marketing gets much less exposure than it could get
16:32:31 <Ralph> ... I like the idea of the BG creating task forces
16:32:40 <tzviya> q?
16:32:43 <tzviya> ack we
16:32:47 <Ralph> Tzviya: that's how we've been trying to structure the CG and we've been having trouble getting TF leaders
16:32:59 <Ralph> Wendy: thanks, Bill, for the recruiting perspective
16:33:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:33:22 <Ralph> ... I think Lars made an excellent point about the marketing of EPUB
16:33:38 <Ralph> ... I don't understand marketing, but I did a twitter thread about my feelings on backwards compatibility
16:33:59 <Ralph> ... I got a few responses, one of the most interesting was from someone who expressed frustration that interop is the sole problem with EPUB
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16:34:07 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:34:11 <Ralph> ... why add new features if people aren't supporting the existing features
16:34:26 <Ralph> ... I've heard this before
16:34:47 <Ralph> ... people chime in that EPUB 3 isn't being supported
16:34:52 <Ralph> ... I want to know who; get names
16:35:04 <Ralph> ... we're working on smoothing out interop issues
16:35:28 <Ralph> ... we have some segments of the industry who are not part of our community and not supporting things for reasons we don't know
16:35:35 <Ralph> ... to get to them we have to find them
16:35:39 <Ralph> ... I'm not sure how we find them
16:36:01 <Ralph> .. but we need to do better marketing to get the word out that we are incredibly interested in people's problems, ideas, and new ideas
16:36:02 <avneeshsingh> I wonder if we need to think the future based on EPUB 3 only?
16:36:14 <Ralph> ... because we want to foster a better ecosystem
16:36:20 <Ralph> ... everyone is already overextended
16:36:57 <Ralph> ... we do have schools with eager students who would love to get involved in publishing
16:37:00 <tzviya> ack me
16:37:00 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about networking missing for all of us in pandemic
16:37:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:37:14 <Ralph> Tzviya: on networking and next steps
16:37:30 <Ralph> ... we're all feeling the lack of networking opportunities during the pandemic
16:37:40 <Ralph> ... the AB has been recognizing this
16:37:54 <Ralph> ... Dave's point about W3C being a very different organization from IDPF is valid
16:38:05 <Ralph> ... W3C would not have Digital Books 201x
16:38:11 <Ralph> ... it's not something W3C usually does
16:38:31 <Ralph> ... maybe we have more Community Days such as we had at TPAC
16:38:44 <Ralph> ... we can brainstorm on how to do that in the future
16:38:55 <Ralph> ... I'm getting the feeling that the current structure is not working well
16:39:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:39:06 <Ralph> ... it's not that one group needs to go; it's something about the structure
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16:39:22 <Daihei_> q+
16:39:31 <Ralph> ... most of the current BG participants are Members
16:39:46 <Ralph> ... what's our ideal structure? do we want everyone to join the CG or WG?
16:40:01 <Ralph> ... do we want to take all ideas from the BG and give them to the CG chairs?
16:40:01 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:40:17 <zheng_xu> q
16:40:23 <tzviya> q+ zheng_xu
16:40:32 <Ralph> Bill: it isn't about the organizational structure, but the thing that most struck me abou the EPUB.next meeting was something Wendy said
16:40:44 <Ralph> ... the fact that EPUB is complicated, or is viewed as complicated; it has a lot of moving parts
16:40:53 <Ralph> ... the browsers have other things they want to work on
16:41:03 <Ralph> ... maybe what we should look at for EPUB.next is make it simpler
16:41:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:41:11 <Ralph> ... make it things that browsers do already
16:41:20 <tzviya> ack dai
16:41:56 <Ralph> Daihei: from the PoV of an Evangelist recruiting Members especially in Japan, though from a global perspective,
16:42:03 <Ralph> ... global needs of digital publishing
16:42:38 <Ralph> ... Members can participate in PBG; all they need to do is sign up
16:42:45 <Ralph> ... and everybody can join the CG
16:43:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:43:31 <Ralph> ... in Japan, Members who want to join in W3C, I've been telling people they have to think about all that is happening around web technologies
16:43:44 <Ralph> ... and the companies who have a stake in W3C to advance the world of business and web technologies
16:43:48 <liisamk> q+
16:44:00 <Ralph> ... we need to discuss more about the business aspects as well as what is next for digital publishing
16:44:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:44:11 <Ralph> ... EPUB 3 becomes such a defacto standard world wide
16:44:26 <Ralph> ... and due to COVID, access to on-line has increased
16:44:46 <Ralph> ... it's great that we see growth in publishing business around the world, as well as in audiobooks
16:44:58 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:45:14 <Ralph> ... the ecosyste needs to be maintained and new developments can be taken advantage of all around the world
16:45:24 <Ralph> ... digital media is evolving
16:45:39 <Ralph> ... business needs need to be discussed in the BG
16:45:59 <Ralph> ... @@ has not been exercised enough to talk about what's happening all around the web
16:46:10 <Ralph> ... I don't think it's a logical idea to merge the BG and CG
16:46:18 <tzviya> s/@@/incubation in the CG
16:46:25 <Ralph> ... as a co-chair, I point out that we'll have more participation from all around the world
16:46:43 <Ralph> ... not only from the technical interests but also from the publishing business side to talk about needs
16:46:59 <Ralph> ... if it's necessary, then something beyond EPUB should be discussed and incubated
16:47:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:47:21 <Ralph> ... if the CG is not looking at going beyond EPUB maybe we need a new TF
16:47:39 <Ralph> ... e.g. to talk about the merging of visual and publishing
16:47:43 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:47:52 <Ralph> ... in Japan, NFT is happening by utilizing digital content
16:47:53 <tzviya> q+ to ask what issues to open for incubation in CG
16:47:57 <Ralph> ... this is happenign outside of EPUB
16:48:04 <Ralph> s/ign/ing
16:48:10 <Ralph> ... we need to expand the BG
16:48:39 <Ralph> ... in terms of incubating the next stage of digital publishing, this could be done outside of Publishing@W3C
16:48:49 <Ralph> ... in Japan people are not only interested in just maintaining EPUB
16:49:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:49:17 <Ralph> ... e.g. Shogakukan joined as a Member and their interest is not only in EPUB but in W3C as a whole
16:49:37 <tzviya> ack zh
16:49:39 <Ralph> ... this is a characteristic of what some of the publishers are thinking, particularly in Japan
16:49:41 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:50:05 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues
16:50:18 <Ralph> Zheng: we started from having good ideas from many places
16:50:41 <Ralph> ... we start task forces, we try implelmentation, we find issues, we change the spec, we keep repeating
16:50:49 <Ralph> ... that is ideal and what I had in mind when we started
16:51:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:51:10 <Ralph> ... the reality is that in CG meetings Avneesh is active and reports status of the A11y TF work
16:51:20 <Ralph> ... but we don't hear from the other two TFs to join the CG meeting
16:51:27 <Ralph> ... I'm trying to figure out the gap there
16:51:44 <Ralph> ... with Mateus and others to see how to move on
16:51:56 <Ralph> ... I joined some BG meetings and hear some wonderful ideas there
16:52:13 <Ralph> ... I hear ideas from other groups as well and want to figure out how to make bridges
16:52:22 <tzviya> ack liisamk
16:52:25 <Ralph> ... this is something we can keep working on
16:53:00 <Ralph> Liisa: another interesting comment from the EPUB.next meeting: someone said maybe we should just lean on looking at what's happening out there in the wild and standardizing it
16:53:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:53:06 <Ralph> ... how do people feel about that?
16:53:30 <Ralph> ... how do we do that with all of the possibilities of things that may evolve across all of publishing
16:54:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:54:06 <Ralph> ... what Rick is seeing is that the education space has evolved very quickly in the past few years and people are trying to figure out how to deploy things that work everywhere
16:54:11 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:54:36 <Ralph> Bill: I'm not suggesting a replacment of EPUB; I'm thinking of both/and
16:54:41 <Daihei_> q+
16:54:59 <Ralph> ... EPUB is widely embedded in the trade book space and anything that is not backwards compatible will meet great resistance
16:55:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:55:43 <Ralph> .. maybe also work in parallel e,g, "Web Publications"
16:55:58 <Ralph> ... the biggest draw for our work is a11y
16:56:08 <Ralph> ... and maybe privacy and identifiers
16:56:14 <ivan> q+
16:56:17 <tzviya> ack me
16:56:17 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask what issues to open for incubation in CG
16:56:28 <Ralph> ... so Membership is attractive because it provides the org access to all the work
16:56:52 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues
16:56:54 <Ralph> Tzviya: it's clear that the CG has poorly attended meetings
16:57:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:57:12 <avneeshsingh> q+
16:57:13 <Ralph> ... let's encourage the BG and WG participants to work closely with the CG; we need to funnel ideas to the CG
16:57:21 <Ralph> ... put your wish list in the CG
16:57:59 <Ralph> ... things sitting in minutes of the BG or WG aren't going to go anywhere
16:58:11 <Ralph> ... in this SC we can talk about how to triage ideas
16:58:25 <Ralph> ... Daihei can predict things in the Japan industry
16:58:46 <Ralph> ... we all know we need to work on a better textbook model and we need to work together on that
16:58:54 <tzviya> ack Daihei_
16:59:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:59:14 <Ralph> Daihei: I propose that we have email discussion rather than GitHub
16:59:31 <Ralph> ... we ought to discuss the publishing activity and extend the discussion of what is the next stage
16:59:55 <Ralph> ... I'd like to start listing what is really being requested from Japan and why they want to be in W3C and what their requirements are
17:00:04 <Ralph> ... we can exchange thoughts by email
17:00:21 <Ralph> ... at the next SC meeting we can try to come to some consensus
17:00:29 <Ralph> Tzviya: we can include our existing SC list
17:00:36 <tzviya> ack iv
17:00:39 <Ralph> ... and if you want to loop in the other groups, add them
17:00:47 <Ralph> Ivan: one aspect of incubation we shouldn't forget:
17:00:53 <Ralph> ... we also need to incubate implementation work
17:01:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
17:01:07 <Ralph> ... we are concentrating on specification but we also need to incubate implemetnation
17:01:25 <wendyreid> +10000000
17:01:32 <Ralph> ... my feeling is that what we did in the Publishing WG, namely the Manifest, is that what is needed is experimental implementations not further specification
17:01:33 <tzviya> +1
17:01:43 <Ralph> ... the Publishing Manifest gives you the basis for a reading system
17:01:51 <liisamk> +1
17:02:00 <Ralph> ... get someone who knows how to handle web packaging, security, and all the hairy things on the Web
17:02:08 <zheng_xu> q+
17:02:10 <Ralph> .. incubation only on specification is not enough
17:02:13 <tzviya> ack avneeshsingh
17:02:19 <Ralph> <ralph> +1 to Ivan
17:02:36 <Ralph> Avneesh: if we want separate groups then we need strong overlap; maybe joint calls
17:03:05 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
17:03:10 <Ralph> ... if there is a feature, or if someone wants to incubate an implementation, why don't the BG people discuss something they'd like to explore further and allocate resources to the CG
17:03:16 <zheng_xu> q-
17:03:18 <Ralph> ... that would be a way for the BG to empower the CG
17:03:19 <tzviya> ack Zakim
17:03:40 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
17:03:51 <Ralph> Zheng: on the Publishing Manifest, we do have a document on EPUB converted to Manifest; we could publish that and see how people react
17:03:57 <Ralph> Tzviya: good food for thought here
17:04:07 <Ralph> ... I like Avneesh' suggest to have joint meetings
17:04:16 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
17:04:22 <Ralph> ... we can make collaboration points a standing topic for this meeting
17:04:30 <Ralph> [adjourned]
17:04:36 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
17:04:36 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Daihei, George, Ivan, Ralph, Bill, shiestyle, tzviya, Bill_Kasdorf, dauwhe, avneeshsingh, liisamk, wendyreid, Zheng_Xu
17:04:39 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:04:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/12-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
17:04:41 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:04:45 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc
17:12:19 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #pbgsc
17:19:16 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
17:19:16 <RRSAgent> I see no action items