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12:52:32 <kaz> meeting: WoT-IG/WG
12:52:40 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura
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13:01:57 <kaz> present+ Kunihiko_Toumura
13:02:19 <kaz> present+ Ege_Korkan
13:02:55 <kaz> regrets+ Michael_McCool
13:03:03 <kaz> present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch
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13:05:23 <kaz> present+ Daniel_Peintner
13:06:50 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
13:07:57 <kaz> scribenick: dape
13:08:49 <dape> TOPIC: Minutes approval
13:09:03 <dape> -> https://www.w3.org/2021/11/03-wot-minutes.html
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13:10:43 <kaz> present+ Michael_Lagally
13:11:17 <dape> SK: Minutes approved
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13:11:55 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-wot-minutes.html vF2F Day 4
13:12:56 <dape> SK: could add link to scripting slides
13:13:00 <dape> Kaz: will do
13:13:38 <sebastian> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2021-10-online-f2f/2021-10-27-WoT-F2F-Scripting%20API.pdf
13:14:01 <dape> SK: Scripting minutes are ok
13:14:21 <dape> SK: Next is last day of TPAC
13:14:31 <dape> -> https://www.w3.org/2021/10/28-wot-minutes.html
13:14:48 <kaz> i/are ok/(link for Daniel's slides added)/
13:15:13 <sebastian> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2021-10-online-f2f/2021-10-28-WoT-F2F-OPC-UA.pdf
13:15:43 <dape> SK: OPCUA presentation can also be added, see link above
13:16:26 <dape> SK: another topic was T2TRG/DID
13:16:52 <kaz> (link for Sebastian's slides added)
13:17:49 <dape> SK: Finally we talked with Manu Sporny about TD versioning
13:17:58 <dape> ... outcome was *new* namespace
13:18:19 <dape> SK: Next was PF and testing report
13:19:32 <dape> No objections to approve minutes -> publish
13:19:46 <dape> SK: All other minutes are already approved
13:20:03 <dape> TOPIC: Current WG Charter Extension
13:20:11 <kaz> present+ Ryuichi_Matsukura
13:20:33 <dape> SK: Talked in Editors call about 12 month extensions (vs 6 month)
13:20:57 <mlagally> mlagally has joined #wot
13:20:58 <kaz> q+
13:21:23 <dape> ... Kaz mentioned concerns about longer review phase
13:22:18 <dape> ... I prefer having stricter deadlines
13:22:46 <dape> ... however having 6 month first and extending later causes issues
13:23:22 <dape> ... McCool supports 12 month extension but would like to stick to current roadmap
13:23:44 <kaz> s/month/months/
13:23:51 <kaz> s/month/months/
13:24:02 <dape> SK: I agree with that
13:24:05 <kaz> s/current/the current/
13:24:31 <dape> SK: other opinions?
13:24:33 <kaz> q?
13:24:56 <dape> Kaz: I agree with SK & McCool
13:25:04 <dape> ... 2 more points
13:25:53 <dape> ... 1. Official review needed for longer than 6 months anyway
13:26:21 <mlagally> q+
13:26:25 <kaz> ack k
13:26:30 <dape> ... 2. feature freeze within this year
13:26:57 <dape> ML: I think we need specific dates
13:27:13 <dape> ... REC in 6 months is desirable
13:27:30 <dape> ... most people start implementing once the spec is final
13:28:06 <kaz> s/feature freeze/basically we're already in "wrapping-up" mode and the extended period (regardless of whether it's 6mo or 12mo) should be used for the wide reviews and test work. Feature freeze should be done/
13:28:10 <dape> ... hence, we should try not to delay
13:28:15 <kaz> q+
13:28:26 <kaz> ack ml
13:28:32 <Ege> q+
13:28:50 <dape> ... at the moment it is not clear what we do in the second 6 months period
13:28:56 <dape> ack mlagally
13:29:07 <dape> Kaz: ML, great comment
13:29:20 <dape> ... we suggest to keep tight schedule
13:29:30 <dape> ... should check schedule weekly
13:29:57 <dape> ... in 2nd half we can start thinking about next charter
13:30:14 <dape> ... we don't need to wait till end of charter
13:31:31 <dape> ... the 2nd half can be used for review comment but we can restart earlier with next charter
13:31:42 <dape> s/for review comment/for review comments
13:31:49 <dape> ack kaz
13:32:26 <dape> Ege: Step 3 (wide review) in plan can take 6 months
13:32:31 <mlagally> q+
13:32:40 <dape> ... the plan does not mention it
13:33:05 <dape> ... by mid May we can start incorporating comments
13:33:09 <kaz> present+ Michael_Koster
13:33:39 <dape> ... Q: Can we incorporate things also after CR phase ?
13:33:57 <dape> Kaz: We can ask for review earlier
13:34:14 <dape> ... after CR we cannot change normative part
13:34:28 <dape> ... changes means new CR
13:34:56 <dape> ... -> should ask for review early
13:35:12 <dape> SK: Yes, we should start with asking for review soon
13:35:27 <kaz> s/changes means/changing normative parts means/
13:36:13 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/Guide/documentreview/ wide review guideline
13:36:42 <dape> Kaz: The wide review has been improved
13:36:54 <dape> ... should be quicker than in the past
13:37:03 <Ege> ack e
13:37:08 <kaz> s/has/process has/
13:37:16 <dape> SK: Yes, should start review process in December
13:38:18 <dape> q?
13:38:27 <dape> ML: 2 comments
13:38:58 <dape> ... 1. Group-wide review should not take more than 3 months
13:39:19 <kaz> q+
13:39:21 <kaz> ack ml
13:39:36 <dape> ... 2. Not sure what we mean by "relevant features"
13:39:56 <dape> SK: Yes, there seems to be some misunderstanding
13:40:20 <dape> ... task force should decide what goes into TDv1.1
13:40:40 <dape> ... or what should be deferred to 2.0
13:41:16 <kaz> present+ Cristiano
13:41:21 <dape> ML: Normative features, not sure what we mean by that
13:41:52 <dape> SK: We just need to clarify
13:42:06 <dape> ML: maybe change "covered" to be "included"
13:42:27 <dape> ... this seems clearer
13:42:37 <dape> q?
13:42:54 <dape> Kaz: w.r.t. point 0 in extension plan
13:43:11 <dape> ... McCool removed Architecture
13:43:37 <dape> ... I would like to see all 4 normative documents (TD, Arch, Profile & Discovery)
13:44:12 <mlagally> q+
13:44:15 <Ege> q+
13:44:17 <dape> ... TD and Arch seems stable
13:44:39 <dape> ML: For the profile I don't think it is realistic
13:45:31 <dape> ... profile freeze cannot be done in some days
13:46:16 <dape> Kaz: Clarification for normative sections are different from feature freeze
13:46:31 <dape> ... structure should be clarified first
13:46:58 <dape> Ege: I don't think this is possible for Profile now
13:47:04 <dape> ML: We still have issues
13:47:07 <dape> ... we need to decide
13:47:24 <dape> ... it is pre-mature to decide at the moment
13:48:05 <dape> q?
13:48:07 <sebastian> q+
13:48:36 <dape> Kaz: We need to have a date "when" Profile can be clarified
13:49:01 <dape> ML: Structure/features need to be done by end of January
13:49:14 <dape> q?
13:49:20 <dape> ack kaz
13:49:22 <dape> ack mlagally
13:49:26 <dape> ack sebastian
13:49:35 <kaz> q+
13:50:06 <dape> SK: Point 0 (zero) is not about decisions. It is rather about clarifications ...
13:50:15 <dape> ... should we remove Point 0 ?
13:50:26 <dape> ... it seems to confuse people
13:50:35 <kaz> q?
13:50:36 <sebastian> ack s
13:51:07 <dape> ML: Still don't know about canonical features
13:51:45 <dape> SK: TD should be freezed by Dec 15
13:52:49 <dape> ... we miss implementation of canonical feature
13:52:55 <kaz> qq+
13:52:58 <kaz> ack k
13:53:02 <dape> ... this would mean removing it
13:53:03 <kaz> ack k
13:53:03 <Zakim> kaz, you wanted to react to s
13:53:23 <dape> Kaz: point 0, need to identify structure first
13:53:30 <dape> ... details later
13:53:53 <dape> ... if we cannot do that, I don't believe in the deadlines
13:54:05 <dape> ... TD/Arch stable
13:54:29 <dape> ... profile work still ongoing, but we can add "at risk" statements
13:55:00 <dape> ML: If we want to make progress, I think we should remove point 0
13:55:03 <dape> q?
13:55:28 <dape> Ege: Kaz mentioned TD/Arch are stable
13:55:41 <kaz> qq+
13:55:46 <kaz> ack e
13:55:47 <dape> ... I think there is still some work needed
13:56:19 <dape> q?
13:56:48 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues/625
13:57:08 <dape> Kaz: The pending PRs to Arch do not change feature. It is more about restructuring
13:57:20 <dape> Ege: Issue 625 is a blocker to me
13:57:50 <dape> SK: I guess we should tackle this issue in Arch call
13:58:07 <dape> ... what about point 0
13:58:39 <dape> Kaz: I suggest to decide on structure
13:58:52 <dape> ... we are already in wrapping-up mode
13:59:14 <dape> ... we should not add big changes now
14:00:10 <dape> ML: Agree that we need to decide on structure
14:00:28 <dape> ... removing an entire structure is not what we want
14:00:44 <dape> Kaz: Should concentrate on sections that are incomplete
14:01:56 <dape> Kaz: Point 0 -> could be rephrased -> look into sections that need improvement
14:02:43 <dape> SK: <updated description accordingly>
14:02:58 <dape> ML: Okay
14:03:49 <dape> Kaz: 12 month extension with 6 months schedule ok by everyone?
14:04:10 <dape> SK: About 12 months, should we make decision today?
14:04:40 <dape> Kaz: PLH proposed a quick resolution
14:05:28 <dape> ML: I think 8 people in the call are not enough
14:06:21 <dape> Kaz: Makes sense, but we have all main editors in the call. McCool agreed with 12 m also
14:07:01 <dape> ML: I am still concerned?
14:07:23 <dape> SK: What about decision in Arch call tomorrow?
14:07:30 <dape> Kaz/ML: +1
14:07:59 <kaz> (preliminary resolution now; and confirmation tomorrow)
14:08:07 <kaz> s/8 people/10 people/
14:08:44 <dape> DP: suggest to send email about 12 m extension plan
14:09:42 <kaz> s|Kaz/ML|ML|
14:10:15 <kaz> s|(preliminary resolution now; and confirmation tomorrow)|kaz: preliminary resolution now; and confirmation tomorrow|
14:10:37 <sebastian> preliminary proposal: the group decide to extend the current WG charter for 12month. A final decision will be made in tomorrow's Architecture call. An email will be send to the WG group as reminder.
14:10:55 <kaz> s/send/sent/
14:11:09 <sebastian> preliminary resolution: the group decide to extend the current WG charter for 12month. A final decision will be made in tomorrow's Architecture call. An email will be sent to the WG group as reminder.
14:11:43 <dape> TOPIC: Rechartering
14:11:52 <dape> SUBTOPIC: IG Charter re-Chartering status
14:12:04 <dape> -> https://www.w3.org/2019/10/wot-ig-2019.html
14:12:27 <dape> Kaz: Issue#274 -> https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues/274
14:12:57 <dape> .. related to wot-marketing Issue 217 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-marketing/issues/217
14:13:16 <dape> .. related wot-testing Issue 198 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-testing/issues/198
14:14:23 <dape> SK: change marketing to CG?
14:14:52 <dape> Kaz: we can do so in the future, but should not do that now since we have it in the draft already
14:16:12 <dape> Kaz: I suggest we should have a resolution mentioning that we update charter
14:16:13 <sebastian> proposal: the group agrees that the text proposal from https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/986#issuecomment-951852452 for the PlugFest report and https://github.com/w3c/wot-marketing/issues/217#issuecomment-964100511 for marketing description. The new IG charter will be updated based on those text.
14:16:38 <mlagally> s(I am still concerned?/I am still concerned because major contributors are not on this call and may not have the bandwidth to continue attending meetings for a year/
14:16:39 <sebastian> resolution: the group agrees that the text proposal from https://github.com/w3c/wot/issues/986#issuecomment-951852452 for the PlugFest report and https://github.com/w3c/wot-marketing/issues/217#issuecomment-964100511 for marketing description. The new IG charter will be updated based on those text.
14:16:51 <mlagally> s/I am still concerned?/I am still concerned because major contributors are not on this call and may not have the bandwidth to continue attending meetings for a year/
14:17:34 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
14:17:39 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:17:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/10-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:17:47 <kaz> [adjourned]
14:17:52 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:17:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/10-wot-minutes.html kaz
14:18:20 <kaz> [TD call in 40 mins]
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