IRC log of silver-protocols on 2021-11-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/11/05-silver-protocols-irc
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RRSAgent, make logs Public
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please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jeanne
13:12:39 [jeanne]
meeting: WCAG3 Protocols Subgroup
13:13:01 [jeanne]
chair: JohnFoliot
13:13:23 [jeanne]
present+ JF, Cooper, jeanne
13:17:13 [jeanne]
MC: I am concerned that people will game the system by claiming a protocol with no measurement. I would not want people to be able to declasre that they are conformant on something that isn't measureable
13:19:17 [jeanne]
JS: that's why I am recommending that Bronze be measureable guideline level and Silver level be a different currancy where we require Bronze level and give points toward the Silver level by a declaration of adopting the protocol
13:19:43 [jeanne]
JF: I object because it makes a protocol AAA, it is optional.
13:20:19 [jeanne]
JS: But it is a like ISO9001 where people are declaring because they want to declare a higher level than bronze.
13:20:41 [jeanne]
JF: I don't want to declare what regulators have to do
13:21:27 [jeanne]
MC: But we have many group members who want language that can be used in regulatory environment.
13:22:15 [jeanne]
JF: I want to try and figure out how we make the Content Usable fully part of WCAG3
13:22:56 [jeanne]
MC: We could measure the inputs to the protocol -- Do they have the training, personnel, and the tools to implement the protocol?
13:23:34 [jeanne]
... You are making sure that certain things can be verified that they are following the steps needed for achieving the output
13:24:16 [jeanne]
JF: Looking at COGA - Help users identify mistakes and avoid them. That's a clear command, but I don't know how to measure it.
13:25:12 [jeanne]
MC: If we are solving with a protocol, then we are using procedures that are like: train your staff in making mistakes, run it through a readability checker.
13:25:54 [jeanne]
JF: We can measure the evidence without measuring the outcome
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13:27:00 [jeanne]
JS: It fits what I'm proposing in the Validating section
13:27:04 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:27:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/05-silver-protocols-minutes.html jeanne
13:27:30 [jeanne]
JF: How do we measure the evidence and how rigorous is it?
13:27:49 [jeanne]
... in the conformance model, the digital property has a conformance statement
13:28:13 [jeanne]
... to make entities accountable to these protocols, we need a statement
13:29:04 [jeanne]
JS: What about in a accessibility statement?
13:29:50 [jeanne]
MC: It could be either. We can come back to a statement and whether it is machine readable. There are other that are more urgent
13:31:07 [jeanne]
MC: There could be a training protocol where you provide a list of trianing, you could have a checklist protocol for developers that they have to follow and then measure whether they follow that protocol
13:31:59 [jeanne]
JF: We have the text alternative decision tree. That would be a valuable document
13:32:42 [jeanne]
MC: Take that example: the protocol is to walk the decision tree and check it off;
13:33:09 [jeanne]
... simply to say that for this category of issue, follow this set of good ideas
13:35:25 [jeanne]
JS: You could have a measurement that there is training, there is a plan for training new employess, that the devs have a copy of the decision tree, and that there is management or peer review of the code that show that the decision tree has been followed.
13:35:49 [jeanne]
MC: That is too broad, we need to start more narrow. We would need a training protocol for that.
13:36:20 [jeanne]
JF: Both Android and iOS have guidelines that have specific guidelines for accessible mobile platforms
13:36:37 [jeanne]
... we could give points for that
13:37:26 [jeanne]
MC: I am looking at an abstract level -- that each protocol would have its own conformance definition and we would refer to it.
13:37:39 [jeanne]
JF: Each protocol is responsible for defining how to measure success
13:38:06 [jeanne]
... we could put that in the rules for each protocol
13:39:08 [jeanne]
MC: Or we could define that each require a list of checklist items and how to meet them and measure it.
13:39:46 [jeanne]
JS: That is a lot more work than we want to do.
13:40:13 [jeanne]
... we want to be able to point to a document and see "do that"
13:41:01 [jeanne]
MC: I don't think we want to start with a document like Content Usable to start - we should look at a document that is more designed as a protocol
13:41:35 [jeanne]
JF: COntent Usable has good objectives, and how to meet it
13:44:10 [jeanne]
JS: What about BBC Mobile Guidelines? They are widely accepted, they are a checklist of how to measure it.
13:44:34 [jeanne]
MC: We could have a protocol that wraps Content Usable to give measurement.
13:45:46 [jeanne]
... how to ensure that Content Usable is followed with appropriate training and effort.
13:46:32 [jeanne]
JF: When I look at good potential protocols, they give good instruction and how to measure it.
13:46:40 [jeanne]
MC: So we should start with them
13:46:59 [jeanne]
JF: Maybe we should call them guidance documents instead of a protocol.
13:47:55 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:47:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/05-silver-protocols-minutes.html jeanne
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16:42:05 [jeanne]
s/train your staff in making mistakes/train your staff in identifying where mistakes can be made
16:42:18 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:42:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/05-silver-protocols-minutes.html jeanne
16:42:59 [jeanne]
s/There are other that are more urgent/There are other issues that are more urgent
16:43:51 [jeanne]
s/trianing/training
16:44:52 [jeanne]
s/a list of training/a list of necessary training
16:45:54 [jeanne]
s/see "do that"/say "do that"
16:47:13 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:47:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/05-silver-protocols-minutes.html jeanne
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