13:57:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
13:57:14 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/11/04-i18n-irc
13:57:21 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #i18n
13:57:31 <addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference
13:57:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:57:37 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
13:57:37 <trackbot> Date: 04 November 2021
13:57:43 <agendabot> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Nov/0003.html
13:57:43 <agendabot> clear agenda
13:57:43 <agendabot> agenda+ Agenda Review
13:57:43 <agendabot> agenda+ Action Items
13:57:43 <agendabot> agenda+ Info Share
13:57:45 <agendabot> agenda+ RADAR Review
13:57:48 <agendabot> agenda+ TPAC Fallout
13:57:48 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
13:57:50 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB?
13:58:09 <addison> agenda+ Closing the loop on Payment Request
13:58:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/04-i18n-minutes.html addison
13:59:34 <addison> topic #i18n Remember the time change!!
14:01:02 <r12a> addison, i think you're an hour early
14:01:18 <r12a> see https://www.w3.org/2017/09/i18n-meeting-info.html
14:02:20 <r12a> :-) good job !
14:07:49 <addison> agenda+ What time is this meeting at?
14:07:54 <addison> agenda+ Whither trackbot?
14:13:17 <atsushi> atsushi has joined #i18n
14:16:22 <addison> agenda+ security issues with bidi controls
14:17:18 <addison> regrets+ Felix
14:38:37 <Najib> Najib has joined #i18n
14:53:12 <xfq> xfq has joined #i18n
14:54:59 <addison> present+
14:55:23 <addison> present+ Fuqiao
15:01:12 <addison> present+ Richard, Atsushi
15:01:27 <David> David has joined #I18n
15:01:33 <JcK> JcK has joined #i18n
15:02:09 <addison> present+ David
15:02:19 <addison> present+ Bert
15:02:52 <addison> agenda?
15:03:00 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 1
15:03:00 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:03:06 <Bert> scribe: Bert
15:03:35 <addison> agenda+ IFD review
15:03:36 <JcK> present+  JcK
15:03:42 <Bert> present+
15:03:48 <addison> zakim, agendum 2
15:03:48 <Zakim> I don't understand 'agendum 2', addison
15:03:58 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 2
15:03:58 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:04:07 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
15:04:38 <Bert> action-1034?
15:04:38 <trackbot> action-1034 -- Addison Phillips to Triage awaiting comment resolution items -- due 2021-06-24 -- OPEN
15:04:38 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1034
15:05:11 <addison> action-1090?
15:05:11 <trackbot> action-1090 -- Addison Phillips to Reach out to apa about potential joint publication of t2s ruby requirements with i18n -- due 2021-11-04 -- OPEN
15:05:11 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1090
15:05:17 <addison> close action-1090
15:05:17 <trackbot> Closed action-1090.
15:05:36 <Bert> action-1091?
15:05:36 <trackbot> action-1091 -- Atsushi Shimono to Create repo for ruby t2s doc -- due 2021-11-04 -- OPEN
15:05:36 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1091
15:05:42 <atsushi> https://w3c.github.io/ruby-t2s-req/
15:06:14 <addison> present+ Fatima
15:06:20 <Bert> atsushi: I did.
15:06:27 <addison> close action-1091
15:06:27 <trackbot> Closed action-1091.
15:06:35 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 3
15:06:35 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:06:40 <xfq> q+
15:06:48 <addison> ack xfq
15:07:02 <xfq> https://www.w3.org/2021/Process-20211102/#changes-2020
15:07:06 <Bert> xfq: On Tuesday, Process 2021 was approved.
15:07:20 <Bert> ... There is a new registries track.
15:07:55 <Bert> ... But not required. Can also still make WDs and RECs.
15:08:34 <Bert> ... NOTEs track now separate from REC track. So NOTE drafts are not called WD anymore, but Note Draft.
15:08:58 <Bert> ... And a NOTE can be endorsed and become a Statement.
15:09:14 <r12a> present+
15:09:41 <Bert> r12a: Sounds like what we tried to avoid by publishing NOTEs instead of RECs...
15:10:16 <Bert> addison: Also interesting in the process: horizontal review for updating RECs is sketchily described.
15:10:45 <Bert> ... I hope we don't get any ‘I want to update my REC next week’ requests.
15:11:22 <Bert> r12a: We need to talk more with Philippe and stress reviews at the start.
15:12:21 <Bert> ... URL vs URI, what is the reference for URIs?
15:12:32 <xfq> s/Note Draft/Draft Note/
15:12:55 <Bert> addison: The WHATWG spec on URL has a kind of profile for URI.
15:13:47 <Bert> JcK: RFC 3986/3987 is maybe half, a little too focused on http.
15:14:06 <addison> agenda?
15:14:55 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 4
15:14:55 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:14:56 <Bert> Next week is 11 Nov, Armistice 1918 in France and the US.
15:15:02 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
15:15:27 <Bert> addison: No new review requests.
15:16:03 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 8
15:16:03 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- What time is this meeting at? -- taken up [from addison]
15:16:06 <Bert> ... I'll need to move the comments of Payment Confirmation, which we decided last time.
15:16:27 <Bert> addison: Current time OK?
15:17:13 <Bert> david_clarke: time OK for now, but not sure what my new job will be like.
15:18:04 <addison> https://everytimezone.com/?t=61832280,384
15:18:45 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 9
15:18:45 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- Whither trackbot? -- taken up [from addison]
15:18:56 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/2017/09/i18n-meeting-info.html
15:19:30 <Bert> addison: Trackbot is being deprecated. GitHub is recommended. How do we do action items now?
15:20:05 <Bert> trackbot, help?
15:20:05 <trackbot> Please see <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
15:20:20 <addison> https://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc
15:21:46 <Bert> David_clarke: 16 years. Long-running software is good.
15:22:10 <Bert> xfq: If we still use it, they will still support it.
15:22:21 <addison> agenda?
15:22:43 <Bert> r12a: That warning on the IRC page seems to have been there since 4 month. So we not be in imminent dager.
15:23:25 <Bert> addison: Trackbot integration with IRC is nice. Could use a GitHub project board, but...
15:23:34 <r12a> s/So we not be in/So we may not be in/
15:23:36 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 11
15:23:36 <Zakim> agendum 11 -- IFD review -- taken up [from addison]
15:23:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/04-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:23:57 <atsushi> https://w3c.github.io/IFT/Overview.html
15:24:13 <atsushi> https://www.w3.org/TR/PFE-evaluation/
15:24:32 <Bert> atsushi: spec based on a report.
15:24:53 <Bert> ... They tried to transfer per glyph, not code point.
15:25:19 <Bert> ... This spec tries to transfer code points.
15:25:31 <Bert> ... But seems not to be working.
15:25:56 <Bert> ... Some fonts have dedicated glyphs.
15:26:46 <Bert> addison: Maybe if they also transfer all code points related to a given code point...
15:27:23 <Bert> atsushi: Maybe we should ask them.
15:28:25 <Bert> r12a: Chris and Myles [spec editors] should be aware of the issue.
15:29:01 <Bert> addison: In indic scripts, e.g., you may need all the vowel-marked and conjuncts.
15:29:28 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/TR/PFE-evaluation/
15:30:13 <Bert> ... I don't quite see how this can be used. Maybe for simple fonts, when code point = glyph.
15:31:06 <Bert> r12a: The report shows some arabic glyphs. I cannot remember what my conclusions were when I read it :-(
15:31:42 <Bert> addison: The report contains the sort of things we talked about, so they do know.
15:32:15 <Bert> r12a: Then conclusion (section 6) has something.
15:32:31 <Bert> s/Then/The/
15:33:35 <Bert> addison: What does the last para, about massive cost increase, mean?
15:33:50 <Bert> david_clarke: Network latency?
15:34:58 <Bert> atsushi: compared to rendering time [scribe missed]
15:35:12 <Bert> addison: Do we have a question to ask them?
15:36:13 <Bert> r12a: Seems good to have a section about its usage. Although it does already point to the report.
15:37:14 <Bert> ... Maybe a summary of the report can be added to set the scope of the spec. It seems it is not to be used for scripts that need shaping, e.g.
15:37:56 <Bert> xfq: It says there will be a separate document for other methods than Patch.
15:38:32 <Bert> david_clarke: There may be an issue with fingerprinting: if you download specific pieces of a font.
15:39:10 <Bert> r12a: Yes, that makes sense, for some kinds of small content.
15:40:00 <xfq> Privacy section is entirely missing -> https://github.com/w3c/IFT/issues/31
15:40:58 <Bert> atsushi: Web fonts and caching, may be hard to fingerprint.
15:41:33 <Bert> addison: But I can place a rare glyph in a page and if you request it, I know you looked at the page.
15:41:53 <Bert> ... atsush, do you want to draft comments? Do you need help?
15:42:22 <xfq> s/atsush/atsushi/
15:42:37 <Bert> atsushi: I would first ask why they choose to base it on code points rather than glyphs. I can draft a comment on GitHub.
15:43:16 <Bert> ... I will add it to our tracker.
15:43:39 <Bert> addison: Don't wait to send it to them.
15:44:00 <Bert> ... Should we raise a fingerprinting issue?
15:44:29 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 7
15:44:29 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- Closing the loop on Payment Request -- taken up [from addison]
15:44:34 <r12a> https://github.com/w3c/payment-request/pull/971/files
15:44:40 <Bert> r12a: We could, but maybe not as a WG, as it is a security question [not i18n] question.
15:45:42 <Bert> r12a: pull request adds a note that seems to say all we asked for.
15:46:13 <Bert> addison: Might avoid the word ‘may’, as it is a technical term.
15:47:20 <Bert> r12a: I'd prefer not to avoid ‘may’ and rather style it specially when used normatively.
15:47:41 <Bert> xfq: As a note, it is non-normative in essence.
15:48:32 <Bert> addison: Shall I do a review and comment and approve?
15:48:41 <Bert> r12a: Yes, I think so.
15:49:21 <Bert> addison: Language negotiation is a separate thing.
15:49:37 <Bert> r12a: And we don't expect to resolve that before they publish this.
15:49:39 <addison> agenda?
15:49:53 <Bert> addison: OK, I will approve it then.
15:50:21 <addison> action: addison: file review approving payment request text plus personal comment on 'may'
15:50:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1092 - File review approving payment request text plus personal comment on 'may' [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-11-11].
15:50:46 <addison> action: addison: ping localizable thread and seek to resolve next steps with whatwg
15:50:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1093 - Ping localizable thread and seek to resolve next steps with whatwg [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-11-11].
15:53:01 <Bert> addison: We should talk to TC39 about a datatype for localizable string. That's a slow process. Should I start it?
15:54:23 <Bert> Discussion about the words  localization vs localizable vs internationalization.
15:54:27 <addison> action: addison: start conversation with ecma-402 et al about webidl work
15:54:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1094 - Start conversation with ecma-402 et al about webidl work [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-11-11].
15:54:42 <addison> agenda?
15:55:34 <Bert> addison: r12, was there a response from Alan on CSS?
15:55:42 <Bert> s/r12/r12a/
15:55:56 <Bert> ... I reserved a slot in my agenda.
15:56:18 <Bert> Thanksgiving is the 25th.
15:56:57 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 6
15:56:57 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:58:23 <Bert> Zakim, end meeting
15:58:23 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been addison, Fuqiao, Richard, Atsushi, David, Bert, JcK, Fatima, r12a
15:58:26 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:58:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/04-i18n-minutes.html Zakim
15:58:29 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Bert; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:58:33 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n
16:01:32 <Najib> Najib has left #i18n
16:01:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/04-i18n-minutes.html addison
16:09:30 <r12a> s/<r12a> addison, i think you're an hour early//
16:09:41 <r12a> s/<r12a> :-) good job !//
16:09:49 <r12a> s/<addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference//
16:10:03 <r12a> s/<addison> topic #i18n Remember the time change!!//
16:10:10 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:10:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/04-i18n-minutes.html r12a
16:12:13 <r12a> s/addison, i think you're an hour early//
16:12:16 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:12:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/04-i18n-minutes.html r12a
16:12:41 <r12a> s/trackbot, prepare teleconference//
16:13:00 <r12a> s/ :-) good job !//
16:13:03 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:13:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/04-i18n-minutes.html r12a
16:13:32 <r12a> s/ :-) good job !//
16:13:38 <r12a> s/:-) good job !//
16:13:42 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:13:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/04-i18n-minutes.html r12a