15:50:18 RRSAgent has joined #apa 15:50:18 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/11/03-apa-irc 15:50:20 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:50:20 Zakim has joined #apa 15:50:22 Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference 15:50:22 Date: 03 November 2021 15:50:24 agenda? 15:50:31 Chair: Janina 15:50:31 agenda+ Agenda Review & Announcements 15:50:31 agenda+ CSS Scroll Bars -- Does 'auto' always overide? 15:50:31 agenda+ TPAC Followup https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2021 15:50:31 agenda+ Task Force Updates 15:50:33 agenda+ FAST Update 15:50:36 agenda+ New Charters Review https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22 15:50:39 agenda+ A11y Review Comment Tracker https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review 15:50:42 agenda+ new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html 15:50:44 agenda+ Actions Checkin (Specs) https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/open 15:50:47 agenda+ Dangling Spec Review Cleanup: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Category:Spec_Review_Assigned 15:50:50 agenda+ Other Business 15:50:52 agenda+ be done 15:51:20 regrets: Gottfried_Zimmerman, Jonny_James 15:52:53 present+ 15:59:57 florian has joined #apa 16:00:29 regrets+ Josh 16:00:41 present+ Florian 16:01:53 becky has joined #apa 16:02:58 present+ 16:07:49 present+ 16:07:51 scribe: becka11y 16:08:00 present+ John_Foliot 16:08:40 present+ matthew_atkinson 16:08:44 present+ paulg 16:08:58 present+ florian 16:09:15 present+ florian 16:10:07 present+ kirkwood 16:10:36 present+ mike_beganyi 16:10:55 zakim, next item 16:10:55 agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Announcements -- taken up [from janina] 16:11:28 https://www.w3.org/WAI/about/projects/wai-coop/symposium1/ 16:11:42 janina: follow up on CSS tpac conversation and standard agenda 16:12:06 janina: APA is cosponsoring the above referenced symposium next week 16:12:35 Janina: Symposium: Shape the Future: Research and Development Questions in Digital Accessibility 16:12:35 Online Research Symposium, 10 November 2021 16:12:51 JF has joined #apa 16:13:10 agenda? 16:13:25 zakim, next item 16:13:25 agendum 2 -- CSS Scroll Bars -- Does 'auto' always overide? -- taken up [from janina] 16:14:07 Janina: hoping the phrasing of this agendum helps resolve; APA concern is that we need to support wide scroll bars 16:15:56 Q+ 16:16:24 Janina: for users; my understanding is that if user has specified wide scroll bars in the OS or browser settings, author specified thin value will be overridden by that user preference 16:16:56 JF: concern is that where does auto come from if author has specified thin within the page 16:17:44 Florian: yes, Janina is correct. There are a variety of ways for the user to override: user CSS can include auto !Important and it will override CSS value 16:18:44 Florian: CSS doesn't specify the browser UI but through a user setting in OS or browser, the user setting will be honored 16:18:49 q+ 16:18:54 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/pull/6750/files 16:18:55 Q+ to ask about what "auto" actually equals 16:19:15 Florian: I have made a pull request to clarify this in the spec. Waiting for other CSS members to comment (few have) 16:19:23 Florian: see link about 16:19:38 ack jf 16:19:38 JF, you wanted to ask about what "auto" actually equals 16:20:57 JF: I understand using auto !important in a user style sheet. This will override the author thin with the default; how do I make it wider 16:21:38 kirkwood has joined #APA 16:21:47 Florian: CSS scroll bar width property doesn't allow setting the width via pixel values; but auto override will use the OS or browser setting for the width 16:22:33 JF: CSS has provided an author way to make the scrollbar thinner but not wider 16:23:41 q- 16:23:49 Florian: CSS believes that user should be able to override settings set by CSS; We do not believe that CSS is the right way for users to customize 16:24:41 Florian: author is the author of the web site being visited; They may need to put something in a cramped space and offer thinner scroll bars 16:25:33 matthew: I agree with CSS view that wide is not needed because user setting will override, so don't think we need wide. I don't understand why we need thin but it is already in the spec 16:26:16 matthew: user can override in two ways: user css or by setting OS or browser setting 16:26:29 q? 16:27:27 Matthew: and how is thin specified 16:28:07 Florian: User agent decides what "thin" means. is if thinner than the user's default setting or some other variant 16:29:51 q+ to respond to paul 16:30:35 paulg: ack that user control of CSS and of the OS is common, but we can't always make that assumption - for example kiosks, which often have a smaller screen. Thus believe wider scroll bars should be available . And WCAG AAA does discuss making pages for specific options. Believe should add wider or deprecate thin 16:30:48 present+ Fazio 16:31:34 Florian: agree kiosks are an issue; but believe we need to still include thin so they don't create thin scroll bars via JS which can't be overridden by the user settings 16:31:41 q? 16:31:44 ack fl 16:31:44 florian, you wanted to respond to paul 16:32:05 Rossen_ has joined #apa 16:32:09 Florian: pull request does explain the thin should only be used for specific purposes 16:32:22 Q+ to comment on Should/shouldn't 16:32:45 ack jf 16:32:45 JF, you wanted to comment on Should/shouldn't 16:33:41 ack me 16:34:07 JF: agree we can say what authors should and shouldn't do and people don't always follow: gives example of doc that says not to user placeholder and people still do. Believe if can change an attribute in one direction it should be changeable in the other direction 16:34:13 present+ 16:34:28 present+ rossen 16:35:02 matthew: I believe we are talking about this issue: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6351 16:35:09 yes we are 16:35:24 +1 16:36:15 Janina: yes that is the issue; Would encourage CSS to rethink the kiosk use case; Agree with JF philisophical approach but that understand argument that this is for specific UI within a page 16:37:30 can’t grab a scroll bar in a kiosk. just finger scroll whole area. Does that affect things? 16:38:07 Florian: if the kiosk operator could use auto !important in style sheet for kiosk. We can't force that but that is the same with any user agent - they won't always offer all features. The tools are available to support the user we can't force implementors to use them 16:39:27 kirkwood: generally whole area scrolls with touch - it is not just the scroll bar that is the target area. Scroll bar gives indication of where you are but is not used for operation 16:40:07 kirkwood: most kiosks are touch 16:40:30 paulg: but scroll bar is a visual affordance that some people need 16:40:35 q- 16:41:47 Neil: I am baffled that kiosk is considered an important use case? There is still nothing to force the author to use wide and no guarantee that they will 16:42:13 If the proposal is for "Default" and Default-", why can't we have "Default+"... I just don't understand the opposition 16:42:21 Florian: the argument is the other way around, author's might use thin and that could make the situation worse 16:42:44 q? 16:43:04 Neil: it is up to the kiosk implementor to add the override 16:43:39 paulg: was just using kiosk as a general example or alternative User interface 16:44:06 FYI We have over 1000 public kiosks (former phone booths) here in the City NYC 16:44:14 paulg: believe there are situations wrt AAA conformance for specific audiences where wide would be used 16:45:08 Fazio: library systems generally use keyboards or projected keyboards - we should be forward thinking. 16:45:13 q? 16:45:22 q+ 16:45:34 ack florian 16:45:54 Q+ 16:46:31 Florian: responding to offering a switch one way we should offer switch the other way. We are really just providing a toggle between thin and default - two things that people are already using 16:46:33 ack JF 16:47:08 q+ 16:47:19 JF: I respect that perspective but believe we are providing use cases of where we should offer both options 16:47:36 Florian: we have addressed the use cases - the user is in control 16:48:09 ack me' 16:48:15 ack ja 16:48:51 Janina: I'm not sure we have provided use cases for why authors would want or use wide (other than specifically for a11y); we do have a path for users to override on their own systems 16:49:11 q? 16:49:19 Janina: if there are use cases for authors to need wide (vs. user) we need to provide those 16:50:18 matthew: all of us want to give users control of their environment; but understand that user does already have control via OS and browser settings; Adding wide won't give users more control 16:50:54 q? 16:51:45 matthew: I think the group is concerned with the ability of authors to use thin but understand the argument that they are being used and if thin is not available authors will implement via JS. The JS implementation is not overridable by the user but the thin option is 16:53:02 +1 to Matthew's points 16:53:13 matthew: agree that adding wide is not a solution; don't see a CSS solution for kiosk example; I see an analogy with author supplied customization like font size but we really want user to have more generic control 16:53:21 +1 to Mathews points 16:54:30 janina: are we comfortable solving by drafting accessibility considerations for this issue to be included into the spec 16:55:24 Florian: I have included a warning in the pull request I proposed: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/pull/6750/files 16:55:55 Janina: might be good to also add a separate section for accessibility considerations 16:56:07 Florian: I can do that 16:56:12 rrsagent, make minutes 16:56:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/03-apa-minutes.html becky 16:57:22 Janina: is there anyone who can't live with the resolution that wide is not needed 16:57:38 JF: I still have concerns but I won't formally object 16:58:35 janina: we never got to the use case of the author wanting wide; the thin case has been presented; I gain comfort that the user can override and it does meet the need 16:59:38 +1 to missed opportunity 17:00:20 paulg: my first project was a website for a drug for parkinsons, if I had the option for a wide scroll bar I would have argued for using it. I feel not having a wide misses the use case. So still believe it is an issue and I have made that case and don't see use of presenting again, 17:00:26 rrsagent, make minutes 17:00:26 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/03-apa-minutes.html becky 18:06:32 janina has changed the topic to: APA Teleconference; Wednesday 10 November at 1700Z 18:14:16 ~.