00:57:09 RRSAgent has joined #me 00:57:09 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/11/02-me-irc 00:57:13 Zakim has joined #me 00:58:16 takio has joined #me 00:59:59 present+ Chris_Needham, Takio_Yamaoka, Qing_An, Fuqiao_Xue 01:00:14 Meeting: MEIG / MiniApps WG joint meeting 01:00:27 present+ John_Simmons 01:01:23 JohnRiv has joined #me 01:02:07 present+ John_Riviello 01:02:23 present+ Francois_Daoust 01:02:31 Qing_An has joined #me 01:02:37 Johnsim has joined #me 01:02:39 present+ 01:03:06 tidoust has joined #me 01:04:16 scribenick: cpn 01:08:34 Topic: Introduction 01:08:45 Chris: [describes background and motivation] 01:09:21 JohnRiv: The problems miniapps seeks to solve seem similar to what we're thinking about, around performance 01:09:41 ... We're interested in the technology of miniapps, and what have you learned about use on phones 01:09:57 rrsagent, make log public 01:10:03 rrsagent, draft minutes 01:10:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/02-me-minutes.html kaz 01:10:11 ... Also interesting are the super-apps, that aren't standard. How were you able to get that interest to standardize? 01:11:03 Present+ Hyojin_Song 01:11:21 present+ Kaz_Ashimura 01:11:34 q+ 01:12:42 Kaz: There have been some collaborative discussion for a while between MiniApps and MEIG and MiniApps and WoT 01:13:13 ... After this call, we can think about use cases for media handling, which parts can be handled by miniapps and which by browsers 01:13:18 ack k 01:13:19 present+ Chris_Lorenzo 01:13:27 rrsagent, draft minutes 01:13:27 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/02-me-minutes.html kaz 01:13:39 chair: ChrisN, ChrisL 01:13:43 Topic: MiniApps introduction 01:14:13 Qing_An: MiniApps are a middle ground between native and web. We see it as a new format of web application 01:14:35 ... One difference is that it runs on top of a native app, or on top of the OS, on PC or mobile 01:14:53 ... The miniapp makes use of WebView functionality to support web rendering 01:15:04 ... The miniapp is a hybrid solution, it uses CSS and JavaScript 01:15:22 ... For the implementation by miniapp vendors, we haven't supported HTML in miniapps yet 01:15:50 ... The main reason is that there may be some security or access control issue from HTML 01:16:14 ... In the MiniApp WG we're looking at reusing existing HTML components for UI display 01:16:42 present+ YingdaZhu 01:17:07 ... Another part is to integrate native app capabilities, e.g., map components. It's easy to call such functions from an API provided by the native app 01:17:27 ... In MiniApps for IoT, there are many hardware capabilities such as I/O ports 01:17:43 ... In this case we provide APIs for miniapps to use this functionality 01:18:22 ... There are many miniapp vendors, Baidu, Huawei, Xiaomi 01:18:31 ... Also other versions in Japan and Korea 01:18:52 ... We're working together at W3C for miniapp interoperability, and get support for browsers 01:19:26 ... There are more than 4.5 million miniapps and 400 million daily active users 01:20:25 ... [MiniApp use cases] These run on top of a super app, e.g., Baidu app. If the user searches for train tickets, they can open a miniapp that's provided by a ticket vendor 01:21:18 ... In another case, the miniapp runs on the Alipay super app. The user scans a QR code in the super app, which opens the miniapp, which may ask for location or bluetooth permission 01:22:25 ... In a third case, the miniapp runs on top of the OS. The user opens the miniapp that the user can use to call a cab 01:23:36 ... Key features: It's web-like, small installation for easy downloading, an app-like experience, high level components, 01:23:44 ... discoverable through multiple entry points such as SMS, smart assistant or smart speaker, search engine or QR code 01:24:22 ... Behind it is one URI that points to a single miniapp. No matter which entry point the user uses, the data is kept centrally 01:24:47 ... There's a miniapp UI in a hosted environment, either a super-app or mobile OS or IoT 01:25:09 ... It could be the TV OS system. That downloads, checks, and unpacks the miniapp file 01:25:27 ... Start the execution environment, JavaScript 01:25:38 hyojin has joined #me 01:25:54 ... The architecture is the same for mobile as it is for IoT 01:26:07 ... MiniApp for IoT and TV could be similar 01:26:36 ... It has some unique features. We're working on MiniApp for IoT in the CG, extended APIs for IoT, lifecycle 01:27:14 ... Use cases for MiniApp IoT, they're suitable for devices with screens. In the smart home, a switch panel device has a screen with buttons or a task screen 01:27:15 rrsagent, draft minutes 01:27:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/02-me-minutes.html kaz 01:27:45 ... Or a smart speaker or video conference terminal. These are some existing use cases that are already supported 01:28:06 ... AliOS platform with integrated MCU 01:28:57 ... The benefit of MiniApp for IoT is that it is accessible to web developers as well as traditional IoT developers who are familiar with C and C++ 01:29:20 ... They don't need to care about the underlying hardware. With existing web libraries, they can develop IoT applications very easily 01:29:49 ... After the IoT device is manufactured and sold, the miniapp can be upgraded, and new apps downloaded to the device 01:30:01 ... It brings the miniapp ecosystem to users 01:30:11 ... Development is happening in the WG and CG 01:30:26 ... For TV we've had some initial discussion, and there's an open issue, but no draft yet 01:30:50 Topic: MiniApp for TV 01:31:33 Qing_An: Traditional miniapps on phones are accessed through the touch screen 01:31:57 q? 01:32:05 ... On TV it's accessed from the remote control. So thinking about requirements for TV miniapp standardisation, there could be a need to check the focus 01:32:53 ... Traditionally for TV applications, many developers use Android environment to build native apps. A key issue is to upgrade the apps on the TV 01:33:28 ... In another case we are thinking about the web on TV. An issue is access control, for security, especially cross-site security 01:34:36 ... For TV app vendors or TV app stores, it's hard to control the contents in the web app, so with the emergence of miniapps we see it could provide some benefits to simplify the developer experience and make it easier for vendors to control the apps on the TV 01:34:53 ... Access control is easier with miniapps 01:35:32 ... There could be many miniapps on the TV. Unlike the mobile phone UI, we can show multiple product item pages on the TV simultaneuosly, and the user can use the TV remote to choose the item 01:35:52 ... Another use case is gaming, simple games on the TV accessed from the remote 01:36:06 ... [Demo of Alibaba TV miniapp] 01:36:59 ... User can purchase via ecommerce by scanning QR code for an item 01:38:06 ... Proposal idea to add a new XML tag to allow user interaction between miniapps on TV via remote, with focus 01:38:49 ... We looked at CSS Spatial Navigation, but there's no Tab button for the TV remote, the focus is on left/right/up/down 01:39:24 ... I won't go into the detail. There are events for keydown/up, focus, etc 01:40:26 ... For CSS, we want to extend it for focus, and JavaScript to let an element to obtain focus and key events 01:40:31 q? 01:40:38 ... Happy to discuss this to see what are the next steps for this work 01:40:43 ChrisL has joined #me 01:41:06 Topic: Discussion 01:41:06 q+ John_Simmons 01:41:09 ack j 01:41:42 JohnSim: I participate in the WAVE project. I'm interested to know how much interoperability there is between miniapps 01:42:14 ... If a device manufacturer supports multiple miniapps and exposes OS level features, is there a common API that they are using? Do miniapps share a similar API? 01:42:38 ... In the media industry the goal is not to have device manufacturers support multiple application frameworks for rendering video 01:43:12 Qing_An: For TV and IoT devices, they're similar. There are many underlying OS where it's not standardized yet 01:43:43 ... Even though miniapps are running on different devices, how to call the hardware functionality doesn't have standardized APIs yet 01:45:08 q+ 01:45:18 Qing_An: For cooperating with the TV or mobile device, we are not asking manufacturers to provide specific APIs for us. We adjust to them 01:45:29 JohnSim: So there's a common API for the app developer 01:45:32 Qing_An: Yes 01:45:40 q+ 01:47:12 ack k 01:47:14 Kaz: Based on the information in your slides, and there are several TV app integrations, we can think about use cases for media handling to improve performance, and compare the current situation with the miniapp approach 01:48:02 Qing_An: We already started a gap analysis. We can try to have discussion with W3C folks to see whether existing specs satisfy requirements 01:48:17 Are the slides available? And that video? 01:48:19 ... and based on this we can see if there's a true requirement for new specs for miniapp on TV 01:48:34 GitHub issue -> https://github.com/w3c/miniapp/issues/158 01:48:51 q? 01:48:56 Kaz: We should think about the different layers: application, etc, in the use case description 01:49:05 ack hyo 01:49:09 Qing_An: Yes 01:49:41 Hyojin: LG has developed the CSS spatial navigation spec at W3C. It seems your requirements can be covered. We have the precondition for 4-way navigation for TV 01:49:50 ... We could separately discuss the details 01:50:40 ... A couple of questions. What is the underlying miniapp browser engine? We tried to do something in the Chromium open source community, but it was difficult to make progress on the required APis for TV 01:51:27 ... Currently LG TV has provided focus related requirements via a dedicated JavaScript framework. We want to support them via standardised APIs due to performance or memory 01:51:42 ... We don't have stakeholders for several years, so we start activity in W3C 01:52:15 ... We could consider having sub tasks for TV apps in MEIG. The group was previously named Web and TV Interest Group, to bring companies together 01:53:12 Qing_An: Yes. We can discuss further offline. Regarding the browser engine, it's developed by the OS provider. We use Blink with our own extensions, for better performance 01:53:22 ... Hybrid rendering with web and native rendering 01:53:35 q? 01:54:03 cpn: have you looked native media playback? 01:54:12 ... two ways for video playback 01:54:21 ... you could have a native video player 01:54:43 ... high-level api or native-level api 01:55:06 present+ Xu_Ying 01:55:40 q+ 01:55:42 Qing_An: We haven't focused on video playback. I'd have to check with our development team. Currently we haven't seen a big requirement for a different API for miniapps 01:55:52 i/have you/scribenick: kaz 01:56:08 s/We haven't/scribenick: cpn/ 01:56:14 rrsagent, draft minutes 01:56:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/02-me-minutes.html kaz 01:56:23 JohnSim: One of the reasons the WAVE project is interested in miniapps is because interoperability has two major components: the A/V content, the other is interoperable platforms for creating apps 01:56:49 ... On the content side, the work done on MSE and EME was an attempt to enable interoperable playback, to work through HTML 01:57:14 s|scribenick: cpn focused|We haven't focused| 01:57:23 ... MSE works with DASH and HLS manifests that are commonly used for adaptive bitrate streaming 01:57:32 i|focused on video|scribenick: cpn| 01:57:34 rrsagent, draft minutes 01:57:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/02-me-minutes.html kaz 01:57:45 ... The only case where they aren't used in an HTML enviromnent is what we call a "type 1" player, where you simply point to a video source, and it plays 01:57:55 q? 01:58:18 ... It's important, because to create an interoperable platform requires attention to the media formats. That's what CMAF and Common Encryption is about 01:58:38 ... It would be good to have a follow-on discussion on interoperable media playback from the content perspective 01:58:58 ... Creating an interoperable platform and interoperable content is the goal for the WAVE project 01:59:26 s/different layers: application/different layers: hardware, network, application/ 01:59:57 ... Most of the major streaming services are at WAVE, and we work closely with DVB, 3GPP, ARIB on media interoperability 02:00:08 ... So this would be a good follow-on discussion 02:00:21 Qing_An: Thank you. We can discuss further 02:00:54 q? 02:01:22 ask j 02:01:33 s/ask j// 02:01:36 ack j 02:01:49 JohnRiv: Thank you for this discussion. The parallels I see with miniapps and TV apps for TV playback 02:02:42 cpn: thanks a lot for your presentation, Qing! 02:02:50 ... want to continue the discussion 02:03:15 ... do we need to conversation about how to deal with this topic between ME and WAVE as well? 02:03:30 JohnSim: yes, let's talk about that offline 02:03:38 ... sounds like a good idea 02:03:44 cpn: ok 02:03:56 ... thank you very much! 02:04:28 ... will be organizing a follow-up discussion in the near future 02:04:37 JohnSim: very soon :) 02:04:51 ... also followup discussion by emails would be useful 02:05:25 [adjourned] 02:05:30 rrsagent, draft minutes 02:05:30 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/02-me-minutes.html kaz 02:05:32 present+ Xu_Ying 02:05:49 rrsagent, draft minutes 02:05:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/02-me-minutes.html kaz 02:07:03 present- YingdaZhu 02:07:09 present+ Yingda_Zhu 02:07:12 rrsagent, draft minutes 02:07:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/02-me-minutes.html kaz 02:07:40 i/thanks a lot for/scribenick: kaz/ 02:07:46 rrsagent, draft minutes 02:07:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/02-me-minutes.html kaz 02:08:55 s/high-level api or native-level api/a native media player, e.g., pass a manifest URL to a video element, or use MSE and EME/ 02:09:14 rrsagent, draft minutes 02:09:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/02-me-minutes.html cpn 02:59:01 xfq has joined #me 04:33:39 Karen has joined #ME 06:42:25 xfq_ has joined #me 06:47:26 xfq__ has joined #me 07:12:52 xfq__ has joined #me 07:26:43 xfq_ has joined #me 07:39:31 Zakim has left #me