11:55:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #MiniApp
11:55:01 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/10/28-MiniApp-irc
11:55:48 <xfq> Meeting: MiniApps WG/CG - TPAC 2021 vF2F
11:55:54 <xfq> present+
11:56:01 <xfq> rrsagent, make log public
11:56:05 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
11:56:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/28-MiniApp-minutes.html xfq
11:56:11 <xfq> scribe+
11:57:10 <xfq> present+ Zitao_Wang
11:58:20 <takio> takio has joined #miniapp
11:58:21 <xfq> present+ martin
11:59:09 <xfq> present+ Takio_Yamaoka
11:59:21 <xfq> present+ Qing_An
11:59:30 <wanming> wanming has joined #Miniapp
11:59:31 <martin> martin has joined #miniapp
12:00:07 <jeff> jeff has joined #miniapp
12:00:15 <xfq> present+ plh
12:00:27 <xfq> present+ wanming
12:00:40 <xfq> present+ Hiroshi_Ota
12:00:41 <ota> ota has joined #miniapp
12:01:18 <xfq> present+ Manvi_Kapoor
12:01:25 <martin> present+
12:01:30 <xfq> present+ Dan_Zhou
12:01:33 <plh> plh has joined #miniapp
12:01:41 <xfq> present+ Changhao_Liang
12:01:48 <xfq> present+ Wenli_Zhang
12:01:56 <xfq> present+ Jeff_Xu
12:02:06 <xfq> present+ Bingqing_Zhou
12:03:27 <plh> plh has changed the topic to: Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/miniapp/issues/172
12:04:13 <xfq> present+ Jeffrey Jaffe
12:04:26 <xfq> present+ Louay Bassbouss
12:04:34 <xfq> present+ Roy Ran
12:04:45 <xfq> present+ Canfeng Chen
12:04:51 <xfq> Qing: @@
12:05:03 <xfq> present+ tomayac
12:05:07 <Roy> Roy has joined #miniapp
12:05:28 <Louay> Louay has joined #miniapp
12:05:36 <Louay> Present+ Louay_Bassbouss
12:05:37 <xfq> Qing: goal is to move to CR before the end of this year
12:05:47 <Roy> present+
12:05:57 <xfq> present- Roy
12:06:40 <xfq> Topic: lifecycle
12:06:52 <xfq> s/goal is to move to CR before the end of this year/for lifecycle, goal is to move to CR before the end of this year/
12:07:09 <xfq> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/miniapp-lifecycle/pull/20
12:07:23 <xfq> qing: we will have joint meeting with mobile a11y TF of AG WG
12:08:07 <xfq> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/miniapp-lifecycle/pull/19
12:08:25 <xfq> qing: details to be added
12:08:53 <xfq> ... added this as a reminder
12:09:11 <xfq> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/miniapp-lifecycle/pull/18
12:09:19 <xfq> qing: this is requested by the TAG
12:10:04 <xfq> ... i need to add some reference to service worker, page visibility
12:10:34 <xfq> ... my PR just added some text in Abstract
12:10:53 <xfq> ... "This specification also provides a mapping to existing Web specifications such as Service Workers and Page Visibility."
12:11:12 <xfq> ... xfq suggested that we add this sentence after we add the mapping to the spec
12:11:19 <xfq> ... i agree
12:11:54 <xfq> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/miniapp-lifecycle/pull/17
12:12:16 <xfq> qing: Added MiniApp's origin description in explainer
12:12:42 <xfq> present+ Xiaoqian_Wu
12:13:33 <xfq> [Network issue]
12:13:51 <xiaoqian> xiaoqian has joined #miniapp
12:14:01 <xfq> qing: the hosting environment will be responsible for the security of the miniapp
12:14:02 <xiaoqian> present+
12:15:29 <xfq> ... maybe in the white paper we can discuss whether we can have more detailed description about this if we think it's too brief
12:15:42 <xfq> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/miniapp-lifecycle/pull/12
12:15:47 <xfq> qing: trivial one
12:16:08 <xfq> ... updated Web IDL
12:17:48 <xfq> ... these are not major updates
12:18:04 <xfq> ... any comments for #17 and #12?
12:18:27 <xfq> zitao: any objections on merging #17 and #12?
12:18:29 <xfq> [silence]
12:19:39 <xfq> qing: since i'm the one to propose it, can zitao or xfq merge them?
12:19:47 <xfq> xfq: ok
12:21:02 <xfq> topic: MiniApp manifest
12:21:21 <xfq> [Martin introduces the MiniApp manifest spec]
12:21:54 <xfq> martin: based on the web app manifest
12:22:01 <xfq> ... added new properties for MiniApps
12:22:31 <xfq> ... we're trying to align as many features as we can with WAM
12:22:49 <xfq> ... we are in touch with webapps WG
12:22:56 <tm_> tm_ has joined #miniapp
12:23:35 <xfq> ... it is about how to describe a miniapp and how to configure a MiniApp
12:23:57 <xfq> ... we also define MiniApp pages in the manifest
12:24:19 <xfq> ... we also define widgets, which is a special kind of MiniApp page
12:24:52 <xfq> ... we're mainly working on the issues
12:24:58 <xfq> ...  i18n
12:25:08 <xfq> ... most MiniApp vendors support i18n
12:25:37 <xfq> ... we need to distribute MiniApps in multiple languages
12:26:07 <xfq> ... we're observing the work in the webapps WG
12:26:13 <xfq> ...  their discussion about i18n
12:27:08 <xfq> ... we also need to look at the localization of the MiniApp content
12:27:40 <xfq> ... we also have an issue about how to handle vendor-depenet attributes
12:27:54 <xfq> present+ Chris Needham
12:28:09 <xfq> martin: a11y features
12:28:15 <cpn> cpn has joined #miniapp
12:28:23 <xfq> ... xfq raised an issue about adding an a11y section
12:28:30 <cpn> present+ Chris_Needham
12:28:50 <xfq> ... any questions?
12:29:10 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/miniapp-manifest/issues
12:29:35 <xfq> zitao: we need to add the a11y section and privacy section
12:29:46 <xfq> ... next month we will have a joint meeting with a11y folks
12:29:56 <xfq> topic: packaging
12:30:23 <xfq> martin: this spec is the biggest one in terms of the definition of MiniApps
12:30:44 <xfq> ... about how we pack everything together and how we organize the major components
12:30:56 <xfq> ... how we define style sheets etc.
12:31:05 <xfq> ... this is still in ED
12:31:12 <xfq> ... will be published as FPWD
12:31:47 <xfq> ... we define the terms in this spec
12:31:54 <xfq> ... the definition of MiniApp itself
12:32:19 <xfq> ... the directory structure
12:33:17 <xfq> ... main resources: html, css, js
12:33:40 <xfq> s/, js/, js, manifest.json/
12:33:49 <xfq> ... localization resources
12:34:01 <xfq> [show structure of a miniapp]
12:34:25 <xfq> ... a MiniApp can have a few pages, a page can have a few compoenents
12:34:46 <xfq> ... html-like language to describe the template, data etc.
12:35:19 <xfq> ... standard ecmascript for scripting
12:35:34 <xfq> ... define CSS profile
12:36:09 <xfq> ... we're still discussing how to define comopnents
12:36:18 <xfq> ... and how to i18n
12:36:49 <xfq> ... will create a new document about how to specify the MiniApp content
12:37:00 <xfq> ... html/css profile for example
12:37:31 <xfq> ... next steps
12:37:43 <xfq> ... web components
12:38:06 <xfq> ... possibility to discuss with the open ui CG
12:38:53 <xfq> ... have meetings with CSSWG about missing parts in CSS
12:39:02 <xfq> ... like density pixels
12:39:21 <xfq> ... work with i18n WG about i18n strategy
12:40:00 <xfq> ... there are similarity with html, dom, and other specs, but the e are some important differences
12:40:05 <xfq> ... any questions?
12:40:07 <xiaoqian> q+
12:40:49 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/miniapp-packaging/issues
12:41:08 <xfq> ack xiaoqian
12:41:17 <xfq> xiaoqian: thank you for the great work!
12:41:29 <xfq> ... the next step seems to be a very large project
12:41:54 <QingAn> QingAn has joined #miniapp
12:41:56 <xfq> ... will it be possible for the group to start working on some polypill like we worked on for the manifest
12:42:05 <xfq> ... so people can @@
12:42:26 <xfq> martin: initial version of the packaging spec is almost done
12:42:41 <xfq> ... the next step in the short term is to define the algorithms
12:43:10 <xfq> ... a complete process for fetching and running a MiniApp
12:43:20 <xfq> ... from the Web
12:43:40 <xfq> ... finalize the packaging spec and start working on the MiniApp content specs
12:44:04 <xfq> zitao: any other comments?
12:44:28 <xfq> Jeff_Xu: i'm jeff, co-charing the publishing CG
12:44:42 <xfq> ... @@
12:44:56 <xiaoqian> s/can @@/can get a basic idea what would a standardised packaging looks like on their own platform or IDE
12:45:22 <xfq> martin: entry point
12:46:03 <xfq> ... define the global config and lifecycle
12:46:45 <xfq> martin: so far everything in a MiniApp is within its container
12:46:53 <xfq> ... this is a difference from webapps
12:47:32 <xfq> jeff_xu: difference between @@ and @@ directories?
12:47:34 <jeff> present+
12:48:13 <xfq> jeff_xu: you have to define the path
12:48:23 <xfq> ... there's no restriction on where you put it
12:49:04 <xfq> topic: addressing
12:49:25 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/miniapp-addressing/pull/4
12:49:32 <xfq> dan: this PR is waiting for review
12:49:36 <xfq> ... no recent update
12:49:49 <xfq> ... our team is pushing the proposal in this spec
12:49:59 <xfq> s/in this spec/in this PR/
12:50:49 <xfq> zitao: can we publish fpwd by the end of this year?
12:51:04 <xfq> dan: please review the document and the PR
12:51:14 <xfq> ... then we will do a wider review
12:51:36 <xfq> topic: Widget Requirement
12:51:52 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/miniapp-widget/pull/3
12:52:18 <xfq> canfeng: we raised a PR
12:52:29 <xfq> ... based on previous feedback
12:53:10 <xfq> ... time limited today
12:53:15 <xfq> ... we can discuss it next month
12:53:57 <xfq> ... we believe the next step is to add a new widget spec
12:54:03 <xfq> ... based on the requirements
12:54:30 <xfq> ... as we noted in the widget requirement document
12:55:18 <xiaoqian> xfq: please start in the CG, our charter @@
12:55:24 <xfq> scribe+ xiaoqian
12:55:32 <xiaoqian> canfeng: will do
12:55:58 <xfq> topic: White paper maintenance
12:56:07 <QingAn> QingAn has joined #miniapp
12:56:13 <xfq> zitao: we discussed this in august
12:56:29 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/miniapp/issues/171
12:57:27 <xfq> https://www.w3.org/2021/08/26-miniapp-minutes.html#t03
12:58:03 <xfq> qing: i think in the new version of the white paper we can consider the following points:
12:58:16 <xfq> ... 1. how do MiniApps handle the origin issue
12:59:00 <xfq> ... 2. consider creating some new scenarios based on our work in the CG
12:59:00 <xfq> ... like MiniApps for IoT or TV
12:59:29 <xfq> ... this could be a starting point for standardization work in w3c
12:59:32 <xfq> zitao: agreed
12:59:49 <xfq> ... we need to explain more about the gap between MiniApps and PWA
13:00:03 <xfq> ... xiaoqian also mentioned it in previous meetings
13:00:43 <xfq> qing: currently we assume we will support html in miniapps
13:01:04 <xfq> ... this is a new idea all MiniApp vendors need to consider
13:01:12 <xfq> ... how about we mention this in the white paper
13:01:25 <JohnRiv> JohnRiv has joined #miniapp
13:01:30 <xfq> ... what kind of html components we can support in miniapps
13:02:02 <xfq> zitao: martin will present the UI component idea in the next hour
13:02:26 <xfq> present+ John Riviello
13:03:34 <xfq> [5min break]
13:04:13 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
13:04:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/28-MiniApp-minutes.html xfq
13:05:13 <bkardell_> bkardell_ has joined #miniapp
13:06:08 <bkardell_> present+
13:10:57 <xiaoqian> agenda: https://github.com/w3c/miniapp/issues/172
13:11:14 <xfq> topic: MiniApps for IoT
13:12:02 <xfq> present+ yanyumeng
13:12:29 <xfq> qing: i have shared MiniApps for IoT with the WoT folks
13:12:35 <xfq> ... i have added some demo since then
13:13:31 <xfq> ... MiniApps running on IoT devices
13:13:40 <xfq> [show slides]
13:13:57 <xfq> qing: run on top of IoT OS, rather than native apps
13:14:24 <xfq> [show use cases]
13:14:42 <xfq> qing: useful for IoT devices with a  screen
13:14:49 <xfq> ... like Smart speaker
13:14:56 <xfq> ... Switch panel
13:15:14 <xfq> ... Screen with buttons or a single Touch screen
13:15:30 <xfq> ... smart speaker is widely used
13:15:43 <xfq> ... with or without a screen
13:16:02 <xfq> ... checkout pad in the shopping mall
13:16:16 <xfq> ... Video conference terminal, Face recognition terminal, Locator
13:17:04 <xfq> [show Hardware supporting MiniApp for IoT]
13:17:22 <xfq> qing: Benefits of MiniApp for IoT for developers
13:18:28 <xfq> ... for traditional IoT apps developers need to use c/c++, compile, link
13:20:17 <xfq> ... how to develop and debug MiniApps for IoT
13:20:29 <xfq> [show the development process]
13:21:54 <xfq> [show example of how to develop a MiniApp for IoT]
13:23:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/28-MiniApp-minutes.html xfq
13:24:20 <xfq> qing: have the same experience as MiniApps on mobile
13:24:30 <xfq> s/same experience/same development experience/
13:24:43 <xfq> [show demo video]
13:24:44 <cpn> q+ to ask about WASM and the UI XML
13:25:39 <xfq> qing: this demo is a MiniApp to control the LED light
13:26:43 <xfq> https://w3c.github.io/miniapp-iot/
13:26:55 <xfq> qing: similar architecture with mobile MiniApps
13:27:18 <xfq> ... IoT devices have unique capabilities
13:27:31 <xfq> ... like controlling hardware
13:27:43 <xfq> ... so we need some new APIs
13:28:16 <xfq> q+ jeff_xu
13:28:18 <xfq> ack cpn
13:28:18 <Zakim> cpn, you wanted to ask about WASM and the UI XML
13:28:41 <xfq> cpn: i would assume execution performance is a concern with these kinds of devices
13:29:03 <xfq> ... if that correct? if that is true have you considered looking at a wasm runtime
13:29:35 <xfq> qing: compared with native C applications the performance is not so great
13:29:49 <xfq> ... we're considering integrating wasm
13:30:17 <xfq> cpn: about the UI
13:30:30 <xfq> ... you mentioned there are two engines
13:30:43 <xfq> ... native and XML engine
13:31:17 <xfq> qing: afaik only Alibaba has implemented this currently
13:31:39 <xfq> ...  we want to see it can be supported among different vendors
13:32:02 <takio> q+
13:32:03 <xfq> ack jeff
13:32:19 <bkardell_> q+
13:32:26 <bkardell_> q-
13:32:48 <xfq> jeff_xu: do we know what will be the memory footprint for this?
13:33:12 <xfq> qing: i have data for MCUs
13:33:19 <xfq> ... will present it in the next meeting
13:33:58 <xfq> jeff_xu: need to precompile js engine in SoC
13:34:13 <xfq> ... what js engine we can use?
13:34:47 <xfq> qing: can't give too many details here, but in our IoT OS we have open-sourced our implementation for MiniApps for IoT
13:35:09 <xfq> jeff_xu: MCU has very low memory
13:35:33 <QingAn> QingAn has joined #miniapp
13:35:42 <xfq> takio: question about hardware resources
13:35:59 <xfq> ... in your demo there's GPIO controlling LED light
13:36:49 <xfq> ... how do you think about driver-layer and UI-layer MiniApps?
13:37:26 <xfq> ... if we only focus on the UI layer it's not enough
13:37:32 <xfq> ... for MiniApps for IoT
13:38:01 <xfq> ... the customers want to not just see the screen, but control the IoT devices
13:38:44 <cpn> s/native and XML engine/native and XML engine. Are you thinking about XML as a standard UI description format across different native UI layers?/
13:39:00 <QingAn> q?
13:39:06 <takio> q-
13:40:26 <xfq> jeff_xu: some SoC devices can support JS applications
13:41:08 <xfq> ... support GPIO, for example
13:41:29 <xfq> ... MiniApp vendors need to be aware of this
13:42:21 <xfq> qing: there may be multiple solutions about @@
13:42:36 <xfq> ... since we have so many SoCs it's not so easy to standardize
13:42:52 <xfq> ... we can first focus on the JS part
13:43:13 <xfq> ... No matter how different they are
13:43:21 <QingAn> q?
13:43:51 <xfq> qing: we have two issues for MiniApps for IoT but we're running out of time
13:43:53 <bkardell_> q+
13:44:16 <xfq> ... a PR for https://github.com/w3c/miniapp-iot/issues/2 would be useful
13:44:44 <QingAn> q?
13:44:45 <bkardell_> q-
13:45:00 <xfq> ... about https://github.com/w3c/miniapp-iot/issues/3 i'll add some references
13:45:17 <xfq> topic: UI Components
13:45:41 <xfq> martin: we're running out of time so i'll be brief
13:45:57 <xfq> ... MiniApps are composed of pages
13:46:06 <xfq> ... HTML, CSS, JS
13:46:12 <xfq> ... subcomponents
13:46:26 <xfq> ...  clear similarity with web components
13:47:19 <xfq> ... custom HTML elements, HTML modules, HTML templates, shadow DOM
13:47:44 <xfq> ... for MiniApps the develops can't access the DOM directly
13:48:44 <QingAn> q?
13:48:52 <xfq> https://w3c.github.io/miniapp-components/
13:49:05 <xfq> martin: zitao collected some common comopnents ^
13:49:34 <xfq> [show comment events]
13:49:41 <xfq> s/comment/common/
13:51:35 <xfq> [show essential elements]
13:52:11 <xfq> martin: for elements like image, it's 99% the same as img in HTML
13:52:27 <xfq> ... we should remove this and align with HTML in this case
13:53:18 <xfq> ... can communicate with HTML and Open UI
13:53:38 <bkardell_> please definitely bring any of these weare missing to openui and participate if you can
13:53:54 <xfq> ... how to define MiniApp elements?
13:54:26 <xfq> ... proposal: implement the MiniApp components as custom elements
13:55:02 <xfq> ... align with web standards and web architecture
13:55:47 <xfq> ... there are challenges
13:56:02 <xfq> ... such as the lack of the support of DOM manipulation
13:56:14 <xfq> ... and support HTML elements
13:56:54 <xfq> ... we should discuss if we should support DOM APIs
13:57:06 <xfq> ... also related to a11y
13:57:36 <xfq> ... otherwise we should provide alternative for a11y features
13:58:26 <QingAn> q?
13:58:28 <xfq> ... WAI-ARIA considerations
13:59:08 <xfq> bkardell_: where do you discuss these things?
13:59:15 <xfq> martin: in the MiniApps CG and WG
13:59:15 <QingAn> q?
14:00:02 <xiaoqian> UI Component Proposal -> https://github.com/w3c/miniapp/issues/160
14:00:28 <xfq> Topic: Tools for converting standard to vendor specific implementations
14:00:36 <xfq> zitao: last week we had a breakout session
14:02:37 <xfq> ... we have uploaded the slides and demo
14:03:02 <xfq> ... @@
14:03:04 <QingAn> q?
14:03:19 <xfq> dan: baidu has also implemented a tool
14:03:29 <xfq> ... no time to introduce it today, though
14:03:36 <xfq> ... will provide it after the meeting
14:05:44 <xfq> CG: 18 November 2021, 12:00 -> 13:00 UTC
14:05:44 <xfq> ● WG: 25 November 2021, 12:00 -> 13:00 UTC
14:05:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/28-MiniApp-minutes.html xfq
14:07:39 <takio> takio has left #miniapp
14:40:12 <xfq> xfq has left #miniapp
16:25:51 <Zakim> Zakim has left #miniapp
16:35:49 <plh> plh has left #miniapp
18:51:03 <jeff> jeff has joined #miniapp
18:56:07 <jeff_> jeff_ has joined #miniapp
22:20:46 <jeff_> jeff_ has joined #miniapp