IRC log of me on 2021-10-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-me-irc
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05:02:15 [kaz]
meeting: Media and Entertainment IG vF2F meeting - Day 2
05:02:30 [igarashi]
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05:03:52 [cpn]
Topic: Introduction
05:04:09 [zacharycava]
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05:04:26 [cpn]
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/15-QdWc87IiUhlPOwER7Gxde1a2FvG5h7OYMva0eGc_s/edit <-- Chris's slides
05:04:35 [h_endo]
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05:04:46 [kaz]
cpn: quick intro
05:04:59 [kaz]
... 2nd meeting of MEIG during TPAC
05:05:12 [kaz]
... co-Chairs here
05:05:18 [kaz]
... feel free to contact us
05:05:31 [kaz]
... our mission from the Charter
05:05:38 [kaz]
... resources here
05:05:49 [kaz]
... home page, charter, GitHub, etc
05:05:58 [tohru_takiguchi]
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05:06:13 [kaz]
... minutes will be published publicly later
05:06:23 [kaz]
... note taken on IRC
05:07:04 [kaz]
... be aware of the Code of Conduct and Patent Policy
05:07:15 [kaz]
kaz: queue management by Zoom's raise hand
05:07:27 [kaz]
... I'll add them to speaker queue on the IRC side
05:07:49 [kaz]
i/quick/scribenick: kaz/
05:07:58 [kaz]
cpn: Mr. Sato's presentation first
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i/Sato/topic: NHK's update on Hybridcast
05:08:20 [kaz]
@@@slides tbd
05:08:24 [cpn]
scribe+ cpn
05:08:47 [cpn]
Sato: I'm from NHK, I'll present an update and issues from Hybridcast
05:09:15 [cpn]
... First, I'd like to explain our future vision of a web based broadcast platform
05:09:48 [cpn]
... We aim to make it possible to use any viewing environment and provide the same UX regardless of device and transmission path
05:10:02 [cpn]
... Our goals are to make UX of broadcast and internet streaming seamless
05:10:26 [cpn]
... The same quality of service and viewing experience for broadcasting and internet
05:10:46 [cpn]
.... Two requirements. A TV and smartphone can be connected for remote control
05:10:59 [kaz]
present+ Kaz_Ashimura__W3C, Tatsuya_Sato__NHK, Chris_Needham__ BBC, Youngsun_Ryu__Samsung, Eero_Hakkinen, Francois_Daoust__W3C, Frode_Hrnes, Hiroki_Endo__NHK, Tatsuya_Igarashi__Sony, Kinij_Matsumura__NHK, Rob_Smith, Takio_Yamaoka__Yahoo!_Japan, Tohru_Takiguchi__NHK, Tomoaki_Mizushima__IRI, Zachary_Cava
05:11:02 [cpn]
... We're considering providing content to devices using W3C WoT technology
05:11:18 [cpn]
Subtopic: Seamless switching between broadcast and internet streaming
05:11:21 [kaz]
present+ Jake_Holland__Akamai
05:11:35 [cpn]
Sato: We're using an OS and platform independent HTML app
05:11:55 [cpn]
... A broadcast oriented managed application is used for presenting broadcast programmes and the content selection UI
05:12:10 [cpn]
... A broadcast independent application runs independently of broadcast services
05:12:17 [cpn]
... It's used for content selection and internet streaming
05:12:26 [kaz]
agenda: https://github.com/w3c/media-and-entertainment/issues/71
05:12:36 [cpn]
... It's possible to switch seamlessly between broadcast and internet streaming
05:12:46 [cpn]
... [Application demo]
05:13:36 [cpn]
... The initial screen shows live broadcast programs, with ondemand programs
05:13:57 [jake_]
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05:14:09 [cpn]
... You can go to live and on-demand programs or transition directly from internet to broadcast without returning to the home screen, and vice versa
05:14:26 [kaz]
q?
05:15:02 [cpn]
... This application has a remaining issue that transition between broadcast and internet streaming isn't as fast as switching between broadcast channels
05:15:29 [cpn]
... Requirments: Low delay for video playback, to allow users to view video at the same time
05:15:50 [cpn]
... Firing events with precise timing accuracy, for dynamic ad insertions and programme-linked UI
05:16:08 [cpn]
... Reducing latency in online delivery. Would CMAF with WebTransport be a solution?
05:16:40 [cpn]
... Event firing in MSE playback is also an issue. Accuracy of event handling in JavaScript is affected by other processing on the device
05:17:07 [cpn]
... Hybridcast Connect allows you to connect your TV to your smartphone. It provide device discovery and a command interface
05:17:35 [cpn]
... The protocol uses open standards to connect the devices. In our current spec version, it's built on open standards such as DIAL
05:17:50 [cpn]
... and two-way communication using WebSocket
05:18:16 [cpn]
... Open and secure standards are desired for communication, eg, HTTPS in local networks
05:18:28 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
05:18:28 [cpn]
... We're looking at new ways to present content using IoT devices
05:18:36 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
05:18:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-me-minutes.html kaz
05:19:10 [cpn]
... Examples include presenting audio on smart speakers, or news on a smart mirror. You could change the color of your room lights, linked to the content
05:19:13 [kaz]
chair: ChrisN, Igarashi
05:19:14 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
05:19:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-me-minutes.html kaz
05:19:35 [cpn]
... Issue is that there's no established method to present content based on device characteristics. WoT is promising for this issue
05:19:46 [cpn]
... Our vision is an IoT based media framework
05:20:06 [cpn]
... It delivers broadcaster content to a device without a broadcast tuner, integrated broadcast and broadband services
05:20:23 [cpn]
... Connect with various IoT devices and internet services
05:20:35 [cpn]
... [Demo]
05:21:10 [kaz]
present+ Kazuhiro_Hoya__JBA
05:22:26 [cpn]
... Devices in this video are operated using Hybridcast Connect and Web of Things
05:22:29 [cpn]
... Thank you
05:22:34 [cpn]
q?
05:22:49 [kaz]
cpn: thank you for your presentation!
05:22:53 [kaz]
q+
05:23:26 [cpn]
Kaz: I work for both MEIG and WoT WG
05:23:43 [cpn]
... You mentioned several issues on TV performance, timing mechanisms
05:24:04 [cpn]
... There was discussion on performance at the last MEIG meeting. Are you interested to join that discussion?
05:25:03 [cpn]
Sato: Yes, I am
05:25:32 [cpn]
Kaz: What kind of WoT Thing Description was used? Maybe you could provide input on the WoT side as well
05:26:04 [cpn]
... You could work with Endo-san for that purpose
05:26:23 [kaz]
present+ Hiroshi_Fujisawa__NHK
05:26:45 [kaz]
q+ Rob
05:26:51 [kaz]
ack k
05:27:17 [cpn]
Sato: I'd like to continue work on WoT, yes
05:27:28 [kaz]
ack rob
05:27:34 [kaz]
q+ cpn
05:28:01 [cpn]
Rob: Regarding IoT integration. Are you looking for a synchronisation mechanism for timed events?
05:28:34 [cpn]
... For example, synchronising room light changes, should that be synchronised to the media?
05:30:01 [cpn]
Sato: Currently we're using broadcast content timecode for synchronisation, but want to use the MTE mechanism
05:30:30 [kazho]
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05:30:39 [kaz]
ack cpn
05:30:41 [cpn]
Rob: I wonder if there's interest to use DataCue, which we'll discuss next
05:30:49 [kaz]
cpn: wanted to ask about secure connection
05:31:04 [kaz]
... there was a group named HTTPS local CG
05:31:13 [kaz]
... wondering about the activity
05:31:18 [kaz]
... any updates?
05:31:35 [kaz]
... one of my involved groups, Second Screen, also working on discovery and connection
05:31:52 [kaz]
... so wondering if it could be a possible solution
05:32:00 [kaz]
iga: I'm co-Chair of the CG
05:32:17 [kaz]
... the current status is not very active
05:32:21 [kaz]
... due to several issues
05:32:26 [kaz]
... including the COVID situation
05:32:41 [kaz]
... we're working on the issue almost 4-5 years
05:32:49 [kaz]
... discussed several possible solutions
05:32:58 [kaz]
... but have not got feedback
05:33:09 [kaz]
... if you have any feedback, would be welcome
05:33:11 [kaz]
q+
05:33:24 [kaz]
i/wanted to/scribenick: kaz/
05:33:39 [jake_]
q+
05:34:14 [kaz]
ack k
05:34:20 [cpn]
Kaz: There's also interest in WoT discovery capability. Also decentralized identity. Need to continue discussion
05:34:24 [kaz]
ack j
05:34:42 [jake_]
Concrete proposal: https://blog.filippo.io/how-plex-is-doing-https-for-all-its-users/
05:34:48 [cpn]
Jake: Plex has a solution that they have published
05:34:57 [kaz]
i/There/scribenick: cpn/
05:35:15 [cpn]
... Not sure how to submit a concrete proposal, but it's the solution I think of when this issue comes up
05:35:50 [cpn]
... I wonder if it's helpful. Plex is a local media server. They changed their servers to use HTTPS to continue interoperating with browsers
05:36:12 [cpn]
... The article describes how it works. Not sure how applicable it is to your use case
05:36:34 [kaz]
cpn: the other point you mentioned is seamless switching
05:36:43 [kaz]
... you have a low-latency protocol for that purpose
05:36:50 [igarashi_]
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05:36:52 [kaz]
... what would cause the delay
05:37:07 [kaz]
... what about content buffering, etc.?
05:37:17 [kaz]
... maybe could you describe the mechanism a bit?
05:38:00 [kaz]
sato: this issue broadcast content and internet content are different pages on the Web contents
05:38:09 [igarashi]
here is the http local network cg github. https://github.com/httpslocal
05:38:11 [kaz]
... and causes the delay problem
05:38:13 [cpn]
Sato: The broadcast and streaming content is another document in the web app
05:38:50 [kaz]
cpn: HbbTV is moving to adapt
05:39:10 [kaz]
... may be the best place for further discussion
05:39:26 [kaz]
sato: thanks
05:39:32 [igarashi]
The CG has studied about the Plex solution. One of issues is that it requires TLS server certificates for a bunch of IoT devices.
05:40:18 [kaz]
cpn: if you'd like to organize future meetings to focus on the topics, happy to organize it
05:40:27 [kaz]
present+ Yajun_Chen
05:40:28 [igarashi]
The other issue is that it does not support adhoc discovery of device on local network.
05:40:34 [kaz]
cpn: any other questions?
05:40:36 [kaz]
(none)
05:40:45 [kaz]
topic: MTE updates
05:41:11 [kaz]
i/MTE/cpn: thank you very much for presenting!/
05:41:23 [kaz]
cpn: update on the project of Media Timed Events
05:41:30 [kaz]
... running for a while in the MEIG
05:41:37 [kaz]
... background briefly
05:41:48 [kaz]
... HTML5 spec included DataCue API
05:41:56 [kaz]
... but removed in WHATWG HTML
05:42:14 [kaz]
... WebKit is the only main stream browser to implement it so far
05:42:23 [kaz]
... HbbTV uses HTML DataCue
05:42:40 [kaz]
.. MSE issue #189: add support for media-encoed events
05:43:06 [kaz]
i/background/... [History and background]/
05:43:38 [kaz]
... MEIG MTE TF since 2018 following input from ATSC and DASH-IF
05:43:51 [kaz]
... CTA WAVE proposed CMAF MSE Byte Stream Format spec
05:44:07 [kaz]
... WICG has DataCue repo since 2018
05:44:18 [kaz]
present+ Calvaris
05:44:25 [kaz]
... [Use Cases]
05:44:39 [kaz]
... don't dive into the details of each use case but...
05:44:47 [yajun_Chen]
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05:44:55 [kaz]
... lecture recording with slideshow
05:45:02 [atai]
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05:45:07 [kaz]
... video with synchronized map display
05:45:15 [kaz]
... client side dynamic content insertion
05:45:52 [kaz]
... - question about how much demand for this
05:46:14 [yajun]
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05:46:28 [kaz]
... etc.
05:46:36 [kaz]
... [Developer benefits]
05:46:56 [kaz]
... apps must currently either use VTTCue or custom app code
05:47:42 [kaz]
... for custom JS code: HTMLMediaElement timeupdate events are too coarse (250 ms)
05:47:51 [kaz]
... for accurate synchronization
05:47:59 [kaz]
... also polling is expensive
05:48:14 [kaz]
... for VTTCue: can't store ta objects directly
05:48:29 [kaz]
... really intended to cue rendering
05:48:34 [kaz]
... [API proposal]
05:48:44 [kaz]
.. several proposals consist of 3 parts
05:48:59 [kaz]
... 1. DataCue API based on existing WebKit imple.
05:49:17 [kaz]
... with two values
05:49:30 [kaz]
... data itself can be any structure
05:49:50 [kaz]
... 2. mappings for browser-generated timed matadata events
05:49:58 [kaz]
... currently in manifests
05:50:06 [kaz]
s/currently/carried/
05:50:36 [kaz]
... 3. extending the TextTrackCue endTime to support +Infinity
05:50:56 [kaz]
... we don't know about the end which can be updated
05:51:06 [kaz]
... [In-band emsg event handling]
05:51:13 [kaz]
... collaboration with DASH-IF Events TF
05:51:34 [kaz]
... defining interoperability guidance for DASH events
05:51:39 [kaz]
... a lot of open questions
05:51:45 [kaz]
... how event dispatch
05:51:51 [kaz]
... MSE-based playback
05:51:55 [kaz]
... etc.
05:52:18 [kaz]
... [In-band emsg event subscription API
05:52:21 [kaz]
s/API/API]/
05:52:32 [kaz]
... requirements:
05:52:51 [kaz]
... allow web app to set the dispatch mode on-receive or on-start
05:53:09 [kaz]
... allow web app to tell the browser which events to surface to the app
05:53:29 [kaz]
... some feedback from Safari WebKit
05:53:36 [kaz]
... only implementation so far
05:53:45 [kaz]
... limitation on media playback engine
05:54:03 [kaz]
... only support on-dispatch mode
05:54:14 [kaz]
... [In-band emsg event handling]
05:54:17 [kaz]
... open questions:
05:54:26 [kaz]
... is there still interest in this feature?
05:54:35 [kaz]
... should we leave in-band event parsing to JS?
05:55:33 [kaz]
... also editorial help wanted to develop the explainer and the spec draft
05:55:48 [kaz]
... if interested, please let me know
05:56:01 [kaz]
... help is appreciated
05:56:10 [kaz]
... [TextTrackCue unbounded end time]
05:56:18 [kaz]
... part of the proposals I mentioned
05:56:22 [kaz]
... April 2021
05:56:33 [kaz]
... thanks to the help from Rob
05:56:44 [kaz]
... HTML spec change (#5953) accepted
05:56:56 [kaz]
... WebVTT spec change (#493) accepted
05:57:09 [kaz]
... and Web Platform tests contributions (#28394) accepted
05:57:26 [kaz]
... implementation bugs are filed
05:57:36 [kaz]
... code contributions are neeed
05:57:44 [kaz]
s/neeed/needed for browsers/
05:57:54 [kaz]
... [Unbounded cues in WebVTT]
05:58:00 [kaz]
... do we need syntax to handle it?
05:58:09 [kaz]
... #496
05:58:13 [kaz]
... two main use cases
05:58:25 [kaz]
... timed metadata in live streams (chapters, etc.)
05:58:28 [kaz]
... live captioning
05:58:49 [kaz]
... requirements
05:59:01 [kaz]
... allow a cue to have an unbounded end time
05:59:11 [kaz]
... etc.
05:59:19 [kaz]
... [Unbounded cues in WebVTT: current status]
05:59:30 [kaz]
... WebVTT issue #496 idscusses syntax options
05:59:42 [kaz]
... for timed metadata, we concluded...
06:00:12 [kaz]
... still open questions
06:00:23 [kaz]
... may still be a need
06:00:34 [kaz]
... establish a requirement in that area
06:00:46 [kaz]
... [Unbounded cues in WebVTT: current status]
06:01:09 [kaz]
... (diagram with Chapter 1 and Chapter 2 at the top)
06:01:37 [kaz]
... (and segment 1, segment 2 and segment 3 corresponding to those chapters)
06:02:09 [kaz]
... in segment 3, the chapter 2 contineus and the endTime extended
06:02:28 [kaz]
... media packaging mechanism to deliver the video stream
06:02:43 [kaz]
... it allows the player to know about the chapters
06:02:47 [kaz]
... [Documents]
06:02:52 [kaz]
... that's about where we're
06:03:07 [kaz]
... requirements for media timed events
06:03:16 [kaz]
... DataCue API requirements
06:03:21 [kaz]
... DataCue API
06:03:25 [kaz]
... etc.
06:03:29 [kaz]
... [Next meeting]
06:03:35 [kaz]
... Monday, 15 Nov. 2021
06:03:43 [kaz]
... your participation welcome
06:03:58 [kaz]
q?
06:04:07 [kaz]
... any questions?
06:04:10 [kaz]
q+ rob
06:04:20 [kaz]
rs: great summary
06:04:24 [kaz]
... a couple of points to add
06:04:32 [kaz]
... asked about the purpose of the API
06:04:41 [kaz]
... is this still required?
06:04:57 [kaz]
... is there common interfaces?
06:05:09 [kaz]
cpn: depending on which part you mean
06:05:29 [kaz]
... possible to implement media parsing
06:05:45 [kaz]
... the other part is actually for your own data
06:05:51 [kaz]
... that application creates
06:05:58 [kaz]
... not interested to extract the event
06:06:15 [kaz]
... you create yourself
06:06:21 [kaz]
... you can use VTT cue
06:06:28 [kaz]
... to handle those events
06:06:43 [kaz]
... but it's a bit inconvenient
06:07:00 [kaz]
... some extent, can be done today using extend JS
06:07:30 [kaz]
... maybe interested in optimization
06:07:47 [kaz]
... not strong interest by browser vendors so far
06:08:10 [kaz]
... the other issue with VTT cue is timing accuracy for event
06:08:20 [kaz]
... spec change for HTML to handle timing accuracy
06:08:34 [kaz]
... could be up to 250ms so far
06:08:48 [kaz]
... would have much more accurate mechanism
06:08:59 [kaz]
... not sure what would be the best number, though
06:09:18 [kaz]
... initial implementation for Chrome, but not really sure
06:09:26 [kaz]
... should follow it up
06:09:40 [kaz]
rs: pushing datacue into JSON
06:10:06 [kaz]
... you can have JSON object with particular identity type
06:10:20 [kaz]
cpn: that is a key benefit for datacue
06:10:33 [kaz]
... it's the way Safari handles it
06:10:40 [kaz]
... the type field is important
06:10:57 [kaz]
rs: the other thins is
06:11:08 [kaz]
... you mentioned data cue api
06:11:36 [kaz]
cpn: didn't show the id
06:11:45 [kaz]
... would be inherited by datacue
06:11:54 [kaz]
s/didn't/sorry I didn't/
06:12:10 [kaz]
... what's the mapping with the ID and the event
06:12:18 [kaz]
... need to be defined
06:12:22 [kaz]
rs: tx
06:12:24 [kaz]
q?
06:12:29 [kaz]
q+
06:12:32 [kaz]
ack r
06:13:19 [kaz]
kaz: quick comment
06:13:22 [cpn]
Kaz: For automated live captioning in zoom, what mechanism are they using, and is it related to your proposed use case?
06:13:30 [kaz]
s/kaz: quick comment//
06:14:03 [kaz]
cpn: yeah, I don't what they're using but related to my use case on synchronization for live captioning
06:14:33 [kaz]
s/what/know what/
06:14:50 [kaz]
... issue for timed text wg as well
06:15:01 [kaz]
... we have good relationship with them
06:15:07 [kaz]
... same underlying mechanism
06:15:27 [kaz]
... MEIG work related on timed event
06:15:42 [kaz]
... collaboration on common technical issues on unbounded cues
06:15:48 [kaz]
q?
06:15:51 [kaz]
q-
06:15:54 [RobSmith]
The Zoom live captions are visibly correcting themselves in real time, e.g. happy -> happening
06:16:32 [kaz]
cpn: any other comments?
06:16:35 [kaz]
(none)
06:16:42 [kaz]
cpn: thank you for the discussion
06:16:49 [kaz]
... feel free to contact us
06:17:09 [kaz]
... let's talk about how to continue the discussion for the topics today
06:17:27 [kaz]
... apologize we went over the time
06:17:44 [kaz]
topic: Next meetings
06:18:00 [kaz]
cpn: Nov. 2, 1am UTC
06:18:06 [kaz]
... MiniApps joint meeting
06:18:17 [kaz]
... follow-up meeting of the Monday meeting
06:18:38 [kaz]
... different approach for Web technologies to handle media
06:18:49 [kaz]
... initially exploratory discussion
06:19:38 [kaz]
... also we'll need to start a new activity on performance based on the Monday discussion
06:19:44 [kaz]
... participation in that is also welcome
06:19:53 [kaz]
... we'll make announcement on the mailing list
06:20:08 [kaz]
... thank you, all!
06:20:16 [kaz]
... look forward to seeing you soon
06:20:20 [kaz]
[adjourned]
06:20:21 [jake_]
thanks chris
06:20:32 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
06:20:36 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
06:20:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-me-minutes.html kaz
06:21:35 [yajun]
present +
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