IRC log of wpwg on 2021-10-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:57:05 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-wpwg-irc
13:57:10 [Ian]
Meeting: Web Payments Working Group
13:57:23 [Ian]
Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/Agenda-TPAC2021
13:57:27 [Ian]
Chair: Nick
13:57:29 [Ian]
Scribe: Ian
13:57:55 [Ian]
present+
13:57:58 [Ian]
present+ Anne_Pouillard
13:58:03 [Ian]
present+ Rouslan
13:58:05 [Ian]
present+ Davor
13:58:21 [clinton]
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present+ Alain_Martin
13:58:41 [Ian]
present+ Stephen_McGruer
13:58:45 [Anne]
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present+ John_Bradley
13:59:25 [Ian]
present+ Bart_de_Water
13:59:51 [nick_shearer]
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14:00:05 [Ian]
present+ Clinton_Allen
14:00:13 [Ian]
present+ Nick_Shearer
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14:00:47 [Ian]
Hemnath_Dhananjayan
14:00:53 [Ian]
present+ Hemnath_Dhananjayan
14:00:58 [Ian]
present+ Takashi_Minamii
14:01:04 [Ian]
present+ Eric_Alvarez
14:01:24 [Ian]
present+ Jordan
14:01:26 [Ian]
present+ Chris_Dee
14:01:52 [Ian]
present+ present+ Haribalu_Venkataramanaraju
14:01:55 [Ian]
present+ Haribalu_Venkataramanaraju
14:02:23 [Ian]
agenda+ Adyen/Airbnb pilot
14:02:26 [ChrisD]
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14:02:29 [Ian]
agenda+ PayPal Topics
14:02:37 [Ian]
agenda+ I18N joint meeting
14:02:48 [Ian]
agenda+ Unlocking the Potential of the Internet of Value
14:03:03 [Ian]
present+ Solai
14:03:08 [Ian]
agenda?
14:03:10 [AdrianHB_]
agenda?
14:03:15 [rouslan]
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14:03:24 [rouslan]
present+ Rouslan
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14:03:40 [bryanluo]
present+
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14:03:54 [benoit]
present+
14:03:54 [Ian]
present+ Manish
14:04:01 [Ian]
present+ Krunal_Patel
14:04:05 [Ian]
present+ Emil_lundberg
14:04:08 [Ian]
zakim, take up item 1
14:04:08 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Adyen/Airbnb pilot -- taken up [from Ian]
14:04:09 [aleksei]
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14:04:09 [AdrianHB_]
present+
14:04:13 [Ian]
present+ Antoin_Cathelin
14:04:23 [Ian]
present+ Jayadevi_Natarajan
14:04:34 [Ian]
present+ Uno_Veski
14:04:38 [Ian]
present+ Solai
14:05:01 [Ian]
Davor: Our goal of implementing SPC was to reduce drop-off rate in challenge flow of 3DS.
14:05:14 [Ian]
...we have about 10% drop-off rate ordinarily.
14:05:27 [Ian]
...SCA is here to stay, so we want to streamline
14:05:28 [Manish]
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14:05:36 [Ian]
...we started working last April with W3C, Airbnb, Google
14:06:04 [Ian]
...in August 2021 we had our first successful SPC payment in Airbnb environment internally
14:06:16 [Ian]
...that led us to API changes
14:06:24 [Ian]
...and then a stable version of the API in Chrome 95
14:06:33 [Ian]
...we are ready to start the Airbnb demo in the next month
14:06:40 [Ian]
...here's a video of our flow
14:06:50 [Ian]
present+ Rolf_Lindemann
14:07:13 [Ian]
present+ Aleksei_Akimov
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14:07:33 [Ian]
Davor: We faced some challenges along the way.
14:07:47 [Ian]
...we needed to change our integration a bit to implement a graceful fallback to 3DS.
14:08:02 [Ian]
...one thing that proved difficult was to track instrument enrollment across devices
14:08:17 [Ian]
...we had to choose between "always authenticating" and relying on a cookie. There are advantages to each.
14:08:40 [Ian]
...there is now a UI when there is no credential match; a cookie helps us avoid that UX
14:08:45 [Ian]
present+ Jonathan_Grossar
14:08:57 [Ian]
present+ Gerhard_Oosthuizen
14:09:12 [Ian]
Davor: We also wanted to be able to distinguish user canceling and genuine error
14:09:27 [Ian]
...we use a cookie for this as well; if present the error is due to "canceling"
14:09:36 [Ian]
..it's not a foolproof approach but it's the best we came up with.
14:09:54 [Ian]
...if someone uses our integration in an iframe, this iframe can be sandboxed, which can limit or make our integration not work at all
14:10:12 [Ian]
...we hope that, in the next steps, to address these challenges as well as a few others.
14:10:24 [Ian]
...we are satisfied with progress so far and look forward to the demo.
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14:10:41 [clinton]
q+
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14:10:45 [Ian]
present+ Nick_Telford-Reed
14:10:49 [rouslan]
q+
14:11:06 [AdrianHB_]
q+
14:11:13 [Ian]
ack clinton
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14:11:34 [Ian]
Clinton: There was a password in your flow. What was that for?
14:12:02 [Ian]
Davor: That password field is part of our challenge simulator. It's not part of SPC. You need to go through this ID&V before enrollment of the SPC credential.
14:12:12 [Ian]
ack ros
14:12:23 [Ian]
zakim, who's here?
14:12:23 [Zakim]
Present: Ian, Anne_Pouillard, Rouslan, Davor, Alain_Martin, Stephen_McGruer, John_Bradley, Bart_de_Water, Clinton_Allen, Nick_Shearer, Hemnath_Dhananjayan, Takashi_Minamii,
14:12:26 [Zakim]
... Eric_Alvarez, Jordan, Chris_Dee, present+, Haribalu_Venkataramanaraju, Solai, bryanluo, benoit, Manish, Krunal_Patel, Emil_lundberg, AdrianHB_, Antoin_Cathelin,
14:12:26 [Zakim]
... Jayadevi_Natarajan, Uno_Veski, Rolf_Lindemann, Aleksei_Akimov, Jonathan_Grossar, Gerhard_Oosthuizen, Nick_Telford-Reed
14:12:26 [Zakim]
On IRC I see hemnath, Gerhard, jonathan, Rolf, Manish, aleksei, jeanLuc, bryanluo, rouslan, ChrisD, takashi, nick_shearer, Anne, clinton, RRSAgent, Zakim, jeff, bdewater,
14:12:30 [Zakim]
... AdrianHB_, pea13, canton, dlehn, kirkwood, weiler, ljharb, benoit, rowan_m, manu, dlongley, slightlyoff, Travis, hadleybeeman, falken_, tobie, nicktr, hober, smcgruer_[EST],
14:12:30 [Zakim]
... Joshue108, ntelford, mkwst, Ian, jeffh, AdrianHB
14:12:38 [Ian]
Rouslan: Please same more about the iframe challenges and what needs improvement.
14:13:28 [Ian]
Davor: It's difficult to simulate this locally. Basically, Airbnb's integration is using a sandboxed iframe environment, which, for example, does not allow setting a cookie by embedded code.
14:13:37 [Ian]
q?
14:13:40 [Ian]
ack ros
14:13:52 [smcgruer_[EST]]
qq+
14:13:56 [Ian]
ack sm
14:13:56 [Zakim]
smcgruer_[EST], you wanted to react to ros
14:14:00 [Ian]
ack ros
14:14:03 [Ian]
ack rouslan
14:14:29 [Ian]
smcgruer_[EST]: There's a general question - how to provide a good flow depending on whether user is enrolled or not enrolled, without leaking information.
14:14:45 [rouslan]
q+ to wonder out loud about conditional ui
14:14:48 [Ian]
...WebAuthn says "use a cookie" but we exist in a 3p context
14:15:03 [Ian]
...and we'll be talking about no 3p cookies at all. I don't have suggestions right now
14:15:09 [Ian]
ack AdrianHB
14:15:19 [Ian]
AdrianHB: I have an idea. ;)
14:15:38 [Ian]
present+ Arno_van_der_Merwe
14:16:16 [Ian]
AdrianHB: A design goal from a long time ago was for the browser to mediate on behalf of the user, and to enable streamlined flows without revealing too much to the merchant site.
14:16:20 [Ian]
present+ Erhard_Brand
14:16:31 [rouslan]
q?
14:16:56 [Ian]
AdrianHB: I think PR API and Payment Handlers could help address the issue that was raised.
14:17:13 [smcgruer_[EST]]
q+ to muse on Payment Handlers as a 1p context
14:17:16 [nicktr]
q?
14:17:19 [Ian]
...Davor, have you thought about using SPC with other payment methods?
14:17:35 [Ian]
Davor: Personally I have not thought a lot about that yet (but my colleagues may have).
14:18:24 [Ian]
Antoine: We have had some discussions about using SPC in different contexts for delegation of authentication under PSD2. In open banking, for example, there are some challenges distinct from cards.
14:18:41 [Ian]
...so the current focus is on refining our approach with cards before looking at other methods
14:18:48 [Gerhard]
q+
14:19:01 [Ian]
Antoine: But some other payment methods might be interested in this.
14:19:03 [nicktr]
q?
14:20:08 [smcgruer_[EST]]
q-
14:20:10 [nicktr]
qq+
14:20:10 [Ian]
Antoine: The major challenge with other payment methods is that incentives are different (e.g., iDeal has a well-established SCA approach already)
14:20:37 [Ian]
Antoine: In Brazil SPC might be useful for debit card payments, for example.
14:20:44 [Ian]
..but I do think that we'll see more usage of SPC
14:21:07 [Ian]
q?
14:21:12 [Ian]
ack nick
14:21:12 [Zakim]
nicktr, you wanted to react to AdrianHB_
14:21:36 [Ian]
NickTR: I'd like to continue the conversation around FIDO Europe WG who are talking with banks about FIDO for login.
14:21:51 [Ian]
...I think if we get traction in that space, then SPC could be used "sort of for free" in an open banking context
14:22:01 [Ian]
...we need a concerted cross-industry effort to get there
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14:22:34 [Ian]
present+ Ryan_Watkins
14:22:49 [Ian]
Antoine: If issuers ask us to use SPC we'd be happy to do so.
14:23:00 [Ian]
...but I agree we need an industry-wide push
14:23:23 [Ian]
...issuers think first about COMPLIANCE rather than reducing fraud or user experience
14:23:34 [Ian]
...we need to develop our messaging to speak to that audience
14:23:47 [Ian]
present+ Tomasz_Blachowicz
14:24:22 [Ian]
Antoine: We need, say, top 20 issuers in Europe and the rest will follow
14:24:24 [Ian]
q?
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14:24:50 [Ian]
ack rouslan
14:24:52 [Zakim]
rouslan, you wanted to wonder out loud about conditional ui
14:25:12 [clinton]
q+
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14:25:24 [Ian]
rouslan: i hear some concerns about "no credential found User Experience"
14:25:31 [dezell]
present+ David_Ezell
14:25:31 [Ian]
...additionally we thought it was not going to disrupt the flow a lot.
14:25:44 [Ian]
...but if you feel that it is an issue, do you think that Conditional UI might be a better approach?
14:26:16 [Ian]
...the privacy of SPC comes in part from an ability to not be able to distinguish "no credential" from "cancel"
14:26:27 [Ian]
...the UX is there to prevent a timing attack
14:26:31 [Ian]
zakim, close the queue
14:26:31 [Zakim]
ok, Ian, the speaker queue is closed
14:27:35 [nicktr]
q?
14:27:43 [Ian]
rouslan: With Conditional UI, the api returns a promise that "hangs." The "hanging" of the promise means either credential not found or user canceled.
14:27:56 [Ian]
...I think with a hanging promise we can avoid the UI
14:28:07 [Ian]
...if this is of interest please let us know
14:28:35 [aleksei]
+1
14:28:35 [Ian]
[Say +1 if of interest!]
14:28:35 [Gerhard]
+1 to know more
14:28:38 [clinton]
+1
14:28:39 [benoit]
+1
14:28:53 [AdrianHB_]
+1 to learn more about what a "hanging promise" is
14:28:58 [Ian]
ack Gerh
14:28:58 [ChrisD]
+1
14:29:15 [Ian]
[From WebEx, Eric Alvarez says +1]
14:29:49 [Ian]
Gerhard: It would be interesting to build an open banking prototype to understand issues in more detail.
14:29:57 [Ian]
present+ Gargi
14:30:06 [clinton]
q-
14:30:37 [Ian]
Gerhard: With open banking a flow exists where you just pick your bank. You are redirected to the bank site (and no information is shared with the merchant).
14:31:20 [Ian]
...in the general flow, your identifying instrument has not yet been shared with the merchant
14:31:32 [Ian]
...but using SPC in this context MIGHT therefore leak more information than in the general flow
14:31:36 [Ian]
....we need to be attentive to that
14:31:41 [Ian]
q?
14:31:44 [jeff]
present+
14:31:46 [Ian]
RRSAGENT, make minutes
14:31:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-wpwg-minutes.html Ian
14:31:51 [Ian]
RRSAGENT, set logs public
14:32:03 [nicktr]
q?
14:33:14 [Ian]
Alain: "Signed payment request" has been pushed in the Berlin Group but there is no enthusiasm to implement the change request.
14:33:24 [Gerhard]
Question: Would Alain be able to share details around those proposed changes?
14:33:27 [John_bradley]
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14:33:27 [Ian]
...if people here would find it useful to do SPC in open banking, we may need to apply additional pressure.
14:33:41 [Ian]
NickTR: Ian, Adrian, and I spoke with them a month ago.
14:34:47 [nicktr]
q?
14:34:55 [Ian]
zakim, close item 1
14:34:55 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Adyen/Airbnb pilot, closed
14:34:56 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:34:56 [Zakim]
2. PayPal Topics [from Ian]
14:34:58 [Ian]
zakim, take up item 2
14:34:58 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- PayPal Topics -- taken up [from Ian]
14:35:54 [Ian]
Gargi: This is an open question for this group. Recognizing the user is an important topic. We've been talking a lot about privacy at this meeting. Most browsers allow customers to manage cookies and allow them to delete data.
14:36:08 [Ian]
..how are we thinking about tracking registrations going forward?
14:36:14 [nicktr]
q?
14:36:16 [Ian]
...how do we keep track of returning devices?
14:36:32 [nicktr]
q?
14:37:12 [Ian]
Gargi: When you register a device? Are you seeing that privacy settings are making it difficult to track registrations?
14:37:19 [Ian]
..how do you avoid re-registering customers?
14:37:46 [Ian]
Davor: We have seen it happen. If the user's browser deletes the cookie or 3p cookies are not allowed, we go through enrollment again.
14:37:49 [Ian]
present+ Susan_Pandy
14:38:01 [Ian]
present+ Kazuhiro_Hoya
14:38:12 [Ian]
Gargi: It's great that customers are increasingly privacy aware.
14:38:22 [Ian]
...a lot of our identification relies on cookies.
14:38:42 [clinton]
q+
14:38:50 [smcgruer_[EST]]
q+
14:39:14 [Ian]
Ian: We'll have some discussion tomorrow on user recognition.
14:39:19 [Ian]
ack clin
14:39:33 [Ian]
Clinton: Yes, this is a challenge, especially with cross-browser availability
14:39:37 [Ian]
ack sm
14:40:18 [Ian]
smcgruer_[EST]: On the browser front, the general thrust is that privacy be respected and changes are possible with user consent and understanding.
14:40:26 [clinton]
+1
14:40:27 [Ian]
...we can share more information with user awareness.
14:40:50 [Ian]
Gargi: From a consent management approach, can there be out-of-the-box integration with browser?
14:41:15 [Ian]
Ian: Request Storage API
14:42:35 [Ian]
smcgruer_[EST]: Roughly speaking, the API intends to give user ability to share storage, with consent.
14:42:45 [Ian]
..but there are some limitations to that API that don't make it great for payments
14:42:49 [AdrianHB_]
q+
14:42:54 [Ian]
...due to partitioned storage approach
14:42:56 [Ian]
ack AdrianHB
14:43:11 [Ian]
smcgruer_[EST]: +1 to exploring this space
14:43:15 [Ian]
ack AdrianHB
14:43:27 [rouslan]
q+ to ask paypal whether they have issues with iframes or top-level cookies
14:43:29 [Ian]
Nick_Shearer: I can get some more details on Request Storage as well.
14:43:43 [AdrianHB_]
q+
14:43:47 [AdrianHB_]
qq+
14:43:48 [Ian]
-> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Storage_Access_API Storage Access API
14:44:08 [nicktr]
ack AdrianHB_
14:44:08 [Zakim]
AdrianHB_, you wanted to react to AdrianHB
14:44:30 [Ian]
AdrianHB: At the risk of being burned at the stake, part of the problem here is that we are trying to use general solutions for a very specific use case
14:44:52 [smcgruer_[EST]]
q?
14:44:52 [Ian]
...we are asking users to give general permissions for specific things, and that tends to confuse the user
14:45:14 [Ian]
...PR API has the advantage of a UX that is specific to payments, and can offer specific behaviors for that use case
14:45:27 [Ian]
q?
14:45:31 [Ian]
ack ros
14:45:31 [smcgruer_[EST]]
qq+
14:45:32 [AdrianHB_]
q-
14:45:35 [Ian]
ack rouslan
14:45:35 [Zakim]
rouslan, you wanted to ask paypal whether they have issues with iframes or top-level cookies
14:45:45 [smcgruer_[EST]]
q-
14:45:57 [Ian]
rouslan: I agree that if a browser and user could know for sure that a payment was happening, that would be great for users.
14:46:09 [Ian]
...but payments are very complex
14:46:15 [Ian]
...I want to understand the PayPal question more
14:46:26 [Ian]
...in my limited experience, PayPal uses redirects for payments
14:46:35 [Ian]
...in that 1p context you have access to all your cookies
14:46:50 [Ian]
...or are you explicitly interested in cross-origin iframes?
14:48:08 [Ian]
Gargi:Webviews are one conversation
14:48:19 [Ian]
...for almost all iframes where we redirect for 3DS use cases we are sandboxed
14:48:21 [nicktr]
q?
14:48:32 [Ian]
Rouslan: Thank you
14:48:33 [Ian]
q?
14:49:06 [rouslan]
q+
14:49:10 [Ian]
Gargi: Because of the lack of information we have, or the customers that we see coming back ... but we don't have a deterministic ID for them. ....we were wondering whether that is a problem for others
14:49:13 [Ian]
ack rouslan
14:49:19 [clinton]
+1
14:49:27 [Ian]
rouslan: SPC was designed to solve this problem
14:49:49 [Ian]
...what does SPC not solve for you?
14:50:11 [Ian]
Gargi: What we wanted to do with Request Storage (or another approach)
14:50:17 [smcgruer_[EST]]
q+ to muse on Payment Handler as a 1p context
14:50:19 [Ian]
...please help us understand how SPC solves this
14:50:22 [nicktr]
q?
14:50:26 [Ian]
ack sms
14:50:27 [nicktr]
ack smcgruer_[EST]
14:50:27 [Zakim]
smcgruer_[EST], you wanted to muse on Payment Handler as a 1p context
14:50:28 [Ian]
ack smc
14:50:41 [Uchi_Uchibeke]
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14:50:44 [Ian]
smcgruer_[EST]: Payment handler was designed in this space. Gives access to a 1p context for payments.
14:51:13 [Ian]
...I have some concerns about whether it's payment-specific enough, but it is designed to be a payment context that would support access to the data.
14:51:24 [Uchi_Uchibeke]
Hi do you mind sharing the link for the TPAC session today, please?
14:51:31 [AdrianHB_]
we should consider what a PH without its own UI might enable.
14:51:35 [Ian]
q?
14:51:35 [rouslan]
q+
14:51:58 [nicktr]
ack rouslan
14:51:59 [clinton]
q+
14:52:18 [nicktr]
rouslan: people don't want to call SPC if they're not enrolled
14:52:35 [nicktr]
...do we think that the no credentials dialogue is the problem?
14:53:11 [Ian]
q+
14:53:21 [nick_shearer]
q+
14:53:31 [Ian]
ack clinton
14:53:48 [Ian]
clinton: It sounds a lot like some of the challenges we look at with Secure Remote Commerce (SRC)
14:53:50 [Ian]
q-
14:53:52 [Ian]
q+
14:53:52 [AdrianHB_]
+1
14:54:02 [Ian]
clinton: The relationship of instruments to users is Many-to-1
14:54:08 [Ian]
...you need a cookie or similar to identify the person
14:54:22 [Ian]
...and independent of the browser from there you determine the available instruments
14:54:50 [Ian]
...the challenge is knowing the consumer before working with them as someone who wants to complete a payment
14:54:58 [nicktr]
q?
14:55:02 [Ian]
zakim, close the queue
14:55:02 [Zakim]
ok, Ian, the speaker queue is closed
14:55:28 [Ian]
ack Nick
14:55:55 [Ian]
Nick_S: We don't have a strong position on SPC yet (at Apple). I am interested in the desire to know more about the consumer before payment is initiated.
14:56:08 [Ian]
...I think it really depends on the context in which the payment is made
14:56:20 [Ian]
...I would be interested to dig further into what information people want to know.
14:56:39 [nicktr]
q?
14:56:42 [Ian]
ack Ian
14:56:57 [ljharb]
eg wouldn't "shipping address" be important, for example, to prevent accepting money if the merchant is unable to ship the user the item?
14:57:00 [AdrianHB_]
To answer Nick_S: What payment instrument types does the current user have that it can pay with?
14:57:27 [ljharb]
that also matters for regional law things - it's not legal to ship alcohol to every state, for example
14:59:03 [AdrianHB_]
s/payment instrument types/payment instruments/
15:00:22 [Ian]
zakim, close item 2
15:00:22 [Zakim]
agendum 2, PayPal Topics, closed
15:00:24 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:00:24 [Zakim]
3. I18N joint meeting [from Ian]
15:00:24 [AdrianHB_]
I believe the solution is sharing payment instrument identifiers in a "non trackable" way. i.e. The user has a payment instrument of type X with a temporary identifier (different for each tx) Y
15:00:27 [Ian]
zakim, take up item 3
15:00:28 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- I18N joint meeting -- taken up [from Ian]
15:00:44 [smcgruer_[EST]]
' The user has a payment instrument of type X ' can be a tracking vector
15:01:05 [smcgruer_[EST]]
s/tracking/fingerprinting
15:01:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-wpwg-minutes.html Ian
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addison has joined #wpwg
15:03:09 [addison]
present+
15:03:21 [r12a]
r12a has joined #wpwg
15:03:36 [Ian]
present+ Atsushi_Shimono
15:03:41 [r12a]
present+
15:03:43 [Ian]
present+ Bert_Bos
15:03:46 [Ian]
present+ Richard_Ishida
15:04:03 [xfq]
present+ Fuqiao_Xue
15:05:00 [plh]
plh has joined #wpwg
15:05:04 [plh]
present+
15:05:26 [bdewater]
same issue here
15:05:59 [Ian]
https://github.com/w3c/payment-request/pull/971
15:06:12 [nicktr]
Ian: introduces Issue 971
15:06:38 [nicktr]
...the plan is go ahead with the recommendation
15:07:11 [bdewater]
@ljharb for regional law things: if I think of Shopify's checkout, the steps are contact info, shipping info, payments. so that determination if alcohol can be shipped would be made before payments
15:07:11 [nicktr]
...we have a couple of choices about how to fix: localizable (sp?) for a webwide solution or a more specific fix
15:07:39 [nicktr]
q?
15:07:47 [Ian]
Ian: Is that the shared understanding of how we will proceed on PR API?
15:07:49 [r12a]
https://github.com/w3c/payment-request/pull/971#issuecomment-935364801
15:08:05 [Ian]
addison: Localizable is kind of stalled, but we think it's the right path forward collectively.
15:08:13 [Ian]
...discussion is whether it belongs in WebIDL or somewhere else
15:08:31 [Ian]
...one clarification on your summary: I'm not quite sure what the proposal is for Payment Request
15:09:38 [nicktr]
ian: we propose a recommendation with "hooks"
15:09:50 [nicktr]
...if localizable comes along, we can use that
15:10:11 [nicktr]
...if it looks like it's going to be a long time, do a specific solution
15:11:17 [nicktr]
q?
15:11:24 [Ian]
Ian: It would be an actual Recommendation with hooks
15:11:31 [Ian]
Addison: Our concern is backward compatibility.
15:12:03 [Ian]
...people will want to interoperate with those. If we don't describe "lang" and "dir" from the outset and put normative language around them, we'll be in a state where we have non-internatoinlized fields
15:12:20 [plh]
q+
15:13:09 [ljharb]
bdewater: ah k
15:13:41 [plh]
q-
15:16:05 [Ian]
Addison: We'd like to see a platform-wide solution to the degree possible.
15:16:38 [Ian]
Ian: How is it going?
15:16:48 [Ian]
Addison: Slowly. Lots of specs with a small number of i18n-able strings
15:16:55 [Ian]
...I recognize that what you have with PR API is relatively a corner case
15:17:19 [Ian]
q?
15:17:44 [Ian]
plh: It's not clear whether we are going to have a single general solution.
15:18:06 [Ian]
...from a developer perspective, dir/lang would need to be optional (leveraging document default)
15:18:12 [Ian]
..and there are ways to make it backward compatible
15:19:12 [Ian]
present+ Kris_Chapman
15:19:13 [nicktr]
q?
15:19:55 [Ian]
nickTR: It's a pragmatic question. it sounds like we can either wait for Localizable on an undefined time scale.
15:20:16 [Ian]
...or put in a 1-off implementation for dir/lang but implementers are unpersuaded because it's an edge case.
15:20:53 [Ian]
1) Wait for localizable, no rec
15:20:59 [Ian]
2) Rec with hooks for future localizable
15:21:03 [Ian]
3) Rec with dir/lang
15:21:47 [Ian]
NickTR: I think the WG's leaning would be #3.
15:22:03 [Bert]
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15:23:01 [ljharb]
smcgruer_[EST]: i missed the context, what JS language feature did you have in mind?
15:24:27 [Ian]
Ian: I think it's either #1 or #2 (that's what I'm hearing)
15:24:55 [ljharb]
smcgruer_[EST]: hmm - maybe i'm not understanding. what lang does `croissant` have?
15:25:09 [Ian]
Addison: Personally it's not our job holding up Recommendations. This WG has worked with us well, and I appreciate the willingness to continue to work with us as we navigate the space.
15:25:31 [Ian]
...I don't know if it's helpful overall for us to hold you up from Rec as long as we all have a commitment together to work on resolving the issue.
15:25:56 [Ian]
Addison: Right stake in the ground is important.
15:26:27 [Ian]
Ian: What else can we do to be helpful in your conversation about Localizable?
15:26:36 [Ian]
Addision: It is already helpful to say "this is hurting us not having this."
15:27:05 [Ian]
...this is a large multi-year process. It's costly to have lots of 1-off solution.
15:27:15 [Ian]
..that makes option #3 unattractive
15:27:48 [Ian]
r12a: Thank you for agreeing to put into the spec BEFORE recommendation a Note that says "This needs to be fixed but we don't yet know how to do it. We are working on it we will add to the spec."
15:29:42 [Ian]
NickTR: PROPOSED: We go forward with option #2 (Rec with hooks)
15:29:49 [nicktr]
+1
15:30:00 [AdrianHB_]
+1
15:30:05 [bdewater]
+1
15:30:39 [Ian]
ACTION: Ian to work with r12a on language for a Note in the specification
15:31:25 [Ian]
Ian: I expect to take to GitHub
15:31:50 [nicktr]
.com/w3c/secure-payment-confirmation/issues/93
15:31:58 [nicktr]
https://github.com/w3c/secure-payment-confirmation/issues/93
15:33:04 [Ian]
zakim, close item 3
15:33:04 [Zakim]
agendum 3, I18N joint meeting, closed
15:33:05 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:33:05 [Zakim]
4. Unlocking the Potential of the Internet of Value [from Ian]
15:33:10 [Ian]
zakim, take up item 4
15:33:10 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Unlocking the Potential of the Internet of Value -- taken up [from Ian]
15:33:40 [benoit]
thank you I18N team!
15:33:56 [Ian]
zakim, take up item 4
15:33:56 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Unlocking the Potential of the Internet of Value -- taken up [from Ian]
15:34:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-wpwg-minutes.html Ian
15:34:16 [addison]
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15:35:33 [Ian]
Uchi(Coil): We want to change payments on the web to be more Fair, Transparent, Faster
15:35:45 [Bert]
Bert has left #wpwg
15:36:26 [r12a]
r12a has left #wpwg
15:37:38 [Ian]
present+ Jeff_Hodges
15:37:52 [Ian]
present+ Jeffrey_Yasskin
15:38:24 [xfq]
xfq has left #wpwg
15:42:03 [clinton]
clinton has joined #wpwg
15:43:09 [nicktr]
q?
15:44:56 [Ian]
-> https://github.com/interledger/rafiki Rafiki
15:46:54 [nicktr]
q?
15:49:12 [Ian]
Uchi: Interledger can get us closer to more payments and more payment options for all users.
15:49:41 [Ian]
...see more information at interledger.org, github.com/interledger/rafiki
15:49:44 [Ian]
..and fynbos.dev
15:50:26 [nicktr]
q+ to ask about coil's plans for payment request
15:50:30 [rouslan]
q+
15:50:34 [Ian]
Uchi: I look forward to collaborating with all of you to unlock value on the Web
15:50:43 [nicktr]
ack rouslan
15:51:02 [Ian]
Rouslan: Is there anything that you envision a browser can do that would be useful for users in this space that cannot be done with a JS library?
15:51:59 [Ian]
Uchi: Improve Web monetization spec
15:52:02 [AdrianHB_]
q+ to also respond to rouslan
15:52:15 [Ian]
Uchi: And implement Web Monetization natively
15:52:41 [Ian]
Uchi: There's also an opportunity for a wallet system in the browser
15:53:10 [nicktr]
q+ later
15:53:13 [nicktr]
q-
15:53:20 [Ian]
ack AdrianHB
15:53:20 [Zakim]
AdrianHB_, you wanted to also respond to rouslan
15:54:53 [Ian]
smcgruer_[EST]: We've invited Coil to contribute to the Chromium open source project. At this point I don't think the Chrome team has resources to invest in this directly, but we are very interested in the space.
15:55:25 [Ian]
Uchi: We also have some opportunities through the Interledger Foundation
15:55:52 [Ian]
...which can support work by engineers on open source code bases
15:55:53 [Ian]
q?
15:55:58 [Ian]
ack nicktr
15:56:16 [Ian]
nicktr: What are Coil plans regarding Payment Request?
15:57:03 [Ian]
Uchi: I am open to advocating Coil's involvement in these APIs
15:57:17 [Ian]
q?
15:57:17 [nicktr]
q?
15:57:43 [Ian]
NickTR: Thank you, Uchi
15:57:51 [benoit]
thanks Uchi!
15:57:52 [Ian]
[Adrian struggles with Audio]
15:57:56 [AdrianHB_]
There is an example of browser integration done in Firefox
15:58:02 [Ian]
NickTR: I'm excited by the work on ILP, Rafiki
15:58:16 [Ian]
...I am hearing interesting use cases like bi-directional micropayments for streaming content
15:58:21 [AdrianHB_]
There are grants that have been made available for technical scholars to experiment with other browsers
15:58:35 [Ian]
NickTR: There are 1000s of use cases for that.
15:58:40 [Ian]
zakim, close this item
15:58:40 [Zakim]
agendum 4 closed
15:58:41 [Zakim]
I see nothing remaining on the agenda
15:58:45 [Ian]
Topic: Tomorrow
15:58:54 [Ian]
NickTR: Thanks everybody who spoke today.
15:59:04 [AdrianHB_]
Coil will likely try to use SPC for payments when it's own product evolves to making discreet payments like tips/donations
15:59:15 [Ian]
NickTR: ...tomorrow: Web Authn. Frictionless flows and user recognition
15:59:29 [Ian]
RRSAGENT, make minutes
15:59:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-wpwg-minutes.html Ian
16:00:06 [Ian]
zakim, bye
16:00:06 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Ian, Anne_Pouillard, Rouslan, Davor, Alain_Martin, Stephen_McGruer, John_Bradley, Bart_de_Water, Clinton_Allen, Nick_Shearer,
16:00:06 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wpwg
16:00:09 [Zakim]
... Hemnath_Dhananjayan, Takashi_Minamii, Eric_Alvarez, Jordan, Chris_Dee, present+, Haribalu_Venkataramanaraju, Solai, bryanluo, benoit, Manish, Krunal_Patel, Emil_lundberg,
16:00:09 [Zakim]
... AdrianHB_, Antoin_Cathelin, Jayadevi_Natarajan, Uno_Veski, Rolf_Lindemann, Aleksei_Akimov, Jonathan_Grossar, Gerhard_Oosthuizen, Nick_Telford-Reed, Arno_van_der_Merwe,
16:00:11 [Ian]
rrsagent, bye
16:00:11 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-wpwg-actions.rdf :
16:00:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ian to work with r12a on language for a Note in the specification [1]
16:00:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-wpwg-irc#T15-30-39
16:00:14 [Zakim]
... Erhard_Brand, Ryan_Watkins, Tomasz_Blachowicz, David_Ezell, Gargi, jeff, Susan_Pandy, Kazuhiro_Hoya, addison, Atsushi_Shimono, r12a, Bert_Bos, Richard_Ishida, Fuqiao_Xue, plh,
16:00:14 [Zakim]
... Kris_Chapman, Jeff_Hodges, Jeffrey_Yasskin