13:52:50 RRSAgent has joined #me 13:52:50 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/10/25-me-irc 13:52:53 Zakim has joined #me 13:53:53 TatsuyaSato has joined #me 13:54:50 rrsagent, make log public 13:54:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:54:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/25-me-minutes.html kaz 13:57:33 meeting: Media and Entertainment IG vF2F meeting - Day 1 13:57:52 chair: Chris_Needham, Chris_Lorenzo, Tatsuya_Igarashi 13:58:20 igarashi has joined #me 13:58:53 present+ Kaz_Ashimura__W3C, Chris_Needham__BBC, Martin_Wonsiewicz 13:59:10 present+ Chris_Lorenzo, Hiroshi_Fujisawa__NHK 13:59:19 takio has joined #me 13:59:58 kinjim has joined #me 14:00:04 present+ 14:00:16 Tomoaki_Mizushima has joined #me 14:00:19 scribe+ cpn 14:00:51 mike has joined #me 14:01:31 hfujisawa has joined #me 14:01:32 Wiill_Law has joined #me 14:02:03 JohnRiv has joined #me 14:02:15 present+ 14:02:16 jpiesing has joined #me 14:02:33 present+ 14:02:37 zacharycava has joined #me 14:02:46 agenda: https://github.com/w3c/media-and-entertainment/issues/71 14:02:48 ChrisLorenzo has joined #me 14:03:00 Minoya has joined #me 14:03:20 riju has joined #me 14:03:43 ota has joined #me 14:03:48 @@@ ChrisN's slides tbd 14:04:02 cpn: introduces the group 14:04:15 ... to the participants 14:04:28 ... list of resoures here 14:04:38 s/resoures/resources/ 14:05:14 ... agenda for today 14:05:20 ... industry updates 14:05:41 ... then web app performance 14:05:53 ... meeting planned for 2 hours 14:06:31 ... we will take minutes on IRC 14:06:35 ... will be publicly published 14:06:36 marklomas has joined #me 14:06:45 BarbaraH has joined #me 14:06:50 ... code of conduct also available 14:07:15 ... there will be 2 upcoming meetings 14:07:32 ... vF2F day 2 on Wednesday 14:07:40 ... also monthly call in Nov 14:07:52 ... first hour is o industry updates 14:07:56 JaroslawKubiec has joined #me 14:08:02 ... would like Jon to give updates 14:08:31 philmaness has joined #me 14:08:47 mark has joined #me 14:08:55 kazho has joined #me 14:09:07 Karen has joined #ME 14:09:16 Dong-Young has joined #me 14:09:25 kaz: logistics notes again 14:09:43 ... taking notes on IRC, so please join @@@URL 14:10:13 ... please put your first name, family name and affiliation name for your zoom name 14:10:23 scribe+ cpn 14:10:30 Topic: HbbTV Update 14:10:34 cpn: also again, please raise your hand using zoom button when you have comments 14:10:47 Jon: How does HbbTV fit with web technologies? 14:10:51 i/@@@/scribenick: kaz/ 14:10:57 i/@@@/topic: Logistics/ 14:11:14 bdekoz has joined #me 14:11:16 ... Looking at apps, some HbbTV apps integrate with broadcast TV. The may be program independent, program guides etc, or program related 14:11:35 ... Some people do subtitles and captions in a web app rather than rely on underlying technology 14:11:53 ... Broadcaster catch-up service. Native DASH player rather than MSE 14:12:12 ... HTML video element is used, replacing older object interface 14:12:41 ... Information services with no broadcast integration. How does HbbTV relate to the web? Information apps are just standard web stuff 14:13:16 ... From a TV set device point of view, let's look at the specs. HbbTV 2.01/2 are based on 2013 web specs 14:13:23 MarkCorl has joined #me 14:13:30 ... 2.0.3 is based on 2018 CTA WAVE snapshot 14:13:53 ... Implementations are different. New products may be based on a previous year's browser 14:14:07 ... Evolutions of products may or may not update the HTML UA 14:14:25 ... Some content providers say it's frustrating when a new TV has a 4 year old UA 14:14:48 ... There's a cost to moving to a new UA version, either outsourced or in-house 14:15:03 ... No business model for funding costs to the TV manufacturer 14:15:13 ... Security bug fix costs 14:15:34 ... How does HbbTV relate to the web? It's similar, yet different 14:15:38 Geun_Hyung_Kim has joined #me 14:15:52 present+ 14:16:06 ... The HbbTV timeline starts with requirements capture. 2 years before products enter the market 14:16:50 ... Call for technologies, voting to get consensus. Draft spec, then once a spec is done then we create test assertions 14:17:00 ... HbbTV gates spec publication on tests 14:17:10 i/How does HbbTV fit/@@@Jon's slides/ 14:17:17 ... Then the test suite is created, funded from membership feeds 14:17:24 ... Then product is deployed based on the spec 14:17:51 ... Manufacturers do what they think is appropriate for the market, could be longer or shorter than 2 years, depending on broadcaster needs 14:17:56 eehakkin has joined #me 14:18:05 ... We have multiple spec versions in development at a time 14:18:26 ... While test assertions are being developed, we'll work on requirements for the next version 14:19:05 ... Today, we're working on HbbTV 2.0.4, adding integration with TV OS accessibility features 14:19:25 ... Also voice assistant integration, such as Alexa and Google Assistant 14:19:36 ... DVB-I for live linear services 14:19:50 ... Please come to the HbbTV symposium, coming soon 14:20:10 q+ jeff 14:20:16 ack j 14:20:36 Jeff: Terrific presentation. In my view, any presentation that highlights real issues is good, gives us things to work on 14:20:56 ... What comes out of W3C that has issues when it gets into HbbTV, e.g., release cycles, security issues 14:21:08 ... Seems like a lot of work to do. How can we help you? 14:21:35 Jon: A lot of it comes to implementations rather than specs. What do browsers integrate and when? 14:21:42 ... Specs are the easy bit 14:22:12 q+ Michael_Dolan 14:22:14 Jeff: We've tried overlays, some benefit and mixed results. How to strengthen those areas? Timelines for implementation 14:22:19 q? 14:22:36 Jon: From HbbTV point of view, we've given up. Particularly with the move to WHATWG 14:22:55 ... We just have to accept what is and work as well as we can with it 14:23:08 calvaris has joined #me 14:23:29 ack m 14:23:48 Mike: If you replace with HbbTV with ATSC, the slides would still be accurate 14:24:14 ... Manufacturers are building consumer products, without necesesarrily coordination between 14:24:42 ... We don't have a continuous update model, risk of bad things happening during updates 14:24:50 s/necesesarrily/necessary/ 14:25:16 ... Higher-end TVs are conntected and interactive. Different to the web world. Appreciate the difficulties involved 14:25:21 ... We experience the same things as HbbTV 14:26:35 +1 14:27:00 ChrisN: Can W3C help with development of new features? 14:27:18 Jon: With voice assistants, nothing to do with TV, strange to define our own API 14:27:25 q+ 14:27:49 Mike_Bergman has joined #me 14:27:51 ... We're defining this, but would be strange to define an API that wouldn't relate to TVs 14:28:07 ... May not be the best example, involves proprietary technology integration 14:28:41 ... Accssibility could be easier, as the basic OS features aren't hugely different. Some things in W3C such as high-contrast-UI 14:29:14 ... Yes, W3C could perhaps have done something. But it comes down to implementations, no guarantee browser vendors would be interested 14:29:40 ... Would be interesting things for collaboration, but uncertainty makes that different 14:30:11 Kaz: Regarding voice agents, there was discussion in the AC meeting. I ran 2 breakout sessions on speech interfaces 14:30:32 ... Many requirements from stakeholders, including accessibility. I'm organising a workshop on voice agents 14:31:06 ... W3C should be able to help you all with improved user interface. We're trying to involve browser vendors as well 14:31:23 ack k 14:31:52 cpn: yeah, the workshop should be helpful 14:32:14 -> https://www.w3.org/2021/10/18-voice-minutes.html voice breakout minutes (day 1) 14:32:24 -> https://www.w3.org/2021/10/20-voice-minutes.html (day 2) 14:32:25 +q 14:32:29 Jon: Most of the work was done by BBC, so your BBC colleagues might be better placed than HbbTV to contribute 14:32:34 q? 14:32:36 ack b 14:32:50 Barbara: Do you have any latency or end-to-end issues? 14:33:15 ... As you do something like voice or transcription, any challenges with latency in doing end to end solutions? 14:33:48 i/yeah/scribenick: kaz/ 14:33:48 Jon: We haven't build this yet. BBC have been working on it, but that wasn't mentioned 14:33:59 i/Most of/scribenick: cpn/ 14:34:11 hyojin has joined #me 14:34:35 Topic: CTA WAVE update 14:34:57 @@@Will's slides 14:35:13 Will: I chair the CTA WAVE project 14:35:24 ... Many WAVE members have joined the call today 14:35:49 ... It's a project run by the CTA, the same people who run the CES trade show, HDMI specs, etc 14:36:09 ... Our goal is to improve interop for OTT streaming. How to make content so that works across devices? 14:36:38 ... We publish standards, and make test suites, and now we coordinate across SDOs 14:36:47 ... There's side-group, CMAF Industry Forum 14:37:11 ... WAVE bridges media and web standards. HTML5, MSE, EME, CSS. Also MPEG, ETSI, WHATWG, JavaScript 14:37:41 ... Core specs are: a content spec, media API spec, device playback spec 14:38:08 q? 14:38:43 ... We also make test suites. Update on recent activities. The web is constantly changing, so hard to say a device should support a particular set of APIs 14:39:06 ... We take a modern laptop and test it against the 4 browser codebases. We use that as a baseline 14:39:22 ... It draws a line in the sand, and test devices against it 14:39:41 ... New specs, common Media CLient Data, to help improve CDN performance 14:39:53 ... It's getting some publicity and usage today 14:40:07 ... DASH/HLS interop spec: how to make one set of content usable by both 14:40:24 ... Common Media Server Data: Data from an origin to a server to a client 14:40:57 ... Common Token Format: Every CDN has a complex method for dealing with tokens. Coming up with a standardised token format that can be used by every CDN and content distributor 14:41:10 ... Test suites, Credit to Louay at Fraunhofer Fokus 14:41:33 ... WAVE extension to WPT, based on a test runner, which was designed for desktop/mobile 14:41:45 giuseppe_vewd has joined #me 14:41:56 ... We test the Web API snapshot. Also our device capabilities test suite. It's all free to use and open source 14:42:12 ... WPT is a cross browser test suite. Hard to run on embedded devices 14:42:41 ... WAVE built a test runner, that extends WPT for embedded devices. Configure on a remote device, execute on the embedded device 14:43:04 ... Custom wrapper and API. Can get HTML or JSON format results 14:43:23 ... You can use a comlpleted test sessiion to use as a basis for a next test 14:43:50 ... The WAVE extension has been merged in to WPT, and that gets updated under contract from CTA 14:44:17 ... Test suites are built on the web platform. We take the major browser code bases and we look at which are well supported on modern hardware 14:44:40 ... Can validate on embedded devices. HbbTV 2.0.3 usese the 2018 Web Media API snapshot 14:44:57 ... Test runner is available on GitHub, and it's availbele in a Docker container 14:45:44 ... It takes several hours to run all the tests, so if you want to experiment just run a few tests, e.g., MSE 14:46:10 ... Device Playback - how well is playback plumbed into the device? 14:46:20 ... A test suite tests this. Jon Piesing has been leading on this 14:46:44 ... We need mezzanine content, known good. Then we synthesize test content to exercise certain features 14:47:13 ... An observation framework with a camera automates gathering test results, to avoid manual testing 14:47:14 q? 14:47:47 ... The test content, when annotated, has visual markers, QR codes and audio codes: are yuo displaying all the frames, how accurate are you seeking? 14:48:21 The Joint COntent Conformance Project - lots of SDOs working to check if content is good 14:48:55 ... Code base is hard to use, difficult to maintain and extend. There's a movement towards CMAF encapculation of content 14:49:11 ... Goal to make a common conformance suite, to lower costs 14:49:14 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:49:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/25-me-minutes.html kaz 14:49:43 ... This project is coordinated by WAVE, credit to Mike Bergman. Coordination with people from DVB, HbbTV, Apple 14:50:12 ... We have a signed letter of intent. There's an RFP to build the conformance suite 14:50:24 ... We'll get an ISOBMFF segment validator 14:50:34 s/... taking notes/kaz: taking notes/ 14:50:41 s/topic: Logistics// 14:50:50 ... CMAF Industry Forum is for industry outreach. The group ran a survey on CMAF, responsive from major TV brands 14:50:57 i/ChrisN's slides tbd/topic: Logistics/ 14:51:04 i/ChrisN's slides tbd/scribenick: kaz/ 14:51:08 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:51:08 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/25-me-minutes.html kaz 14:51:35 ... Some of the questions we asked: Usage plans for CMAF, codec profiles you use, etc? Report will be published on the CMAF-IF website 14:52:15 ... Are people aware of the relationship of CMAF to HTML media extensions? Most people said yes, but many said no, which is interesting 14:52:39 ... More than half using it today, 19% not planning to using. Worry about those not using it 14:53:06 ... Many are doing both MP4 and MPEG2-TS, could be older STBs 14:53:29 ... A lot of people intend to continue using both. That should be a smaller number 14:53:58 ... What's blocking people from people using HTML5? Are you using MSE and EME? 14:54:29 ... Interesting answers here. "Implementations are poor or half-baked" 14:54:49 ... Unreliable playback performance 14:55:02 ... Playback based on apps, seen competing data on that 14:55:29 ... Web is constantly evolving, HTML5 is stepping stone to the next version 14:55:37 ... Open to questions 14:56:08 q+ jeff 14:56:10 ack j 14:56:34 Jeff: Thanks Will. You mentioned linkage with the W3C technologies, MSE, EME, HTML, CSS 14:57:01 ... There's a bunch of new specs in the Media WG, WebCodecs, Media Capabilities, Media Playback Quality, etc 14:57:13 ... Hope this is to the benefit of the media industry. Are these on your radar? 14:57:32 Will: Absolutely. We're looking at Media Capabilities, we've input requirements to the Media WG 14:57:57 ... It's hard to introspect. Media Capabilities is in our snapshot as it gets adopted by browsers 14:58:16 ... WebCodecs doesn't have broad implementation, but we'd be moving towards it 14:58:32 ... Evolve the test suite 14:58:36 Yes, I can confirm Media Capabilities is in the Snapshot 14:58:53 Jeff: Input from media companies helps move things forward 14:59:03 Will: Not necessarily the media APIs that are the blocker 14:59:19 ... Our stated goal for WAVE was web-based playback across devices 14:59:28 ... We're running into headwinds, things not broadly supported 14:59:34 ... It's a key question for MEIG 15:00:16 cpn: has been discussion on media around CMAF. potential need for CMAF byte stream 15:00:23 i/has/scribenick: kaz/ 15:00:30 q? 15:00:34 Hi - Survey for my talk if everyone could take the time to provide some valuable information - https://forms.gle/jfvudBgq87YA44z68 15:01:07 Topic: Web App Performance 15:01:28 scribenick: cpn 15:01:40 ChrisL: My talk focuses on web apps on TV devices, not media playback performance 15:02:00 ... I've been at Comcast for 14 years. Great experience developing web apps in JavaScript 15:02:18 ... I'll talk about where we are today and where we can go in future 15:02:35 ... PWA performance optimissation 15:03:01 ... We're building web content on native apps. The hardware wasn't great at rendering 15:03:14 atai has joined #me 15:03:20 ... The latest iPhone is almost as fast as a desktop processor. Can build a PWA and make it fast on phones 15:03:40 ... I joined the Flex team. Building UIs in a browser 15:04:02 ... We're pushing the limits of the hardware. The browser is WPE, WebKit for embedded devices 15:04:09 ... Stripped down to run on low-end hardare 15:04:30 ... We started trying to build UIs on these boxes using HTML+CSS 15:05:05 ... Designers would come up with beautiful images, animations. But when we built it we found the performance meant you couldn't use animations 15:05:20 ... Couldn't make a great UI because of the performance limitations 15:05:36 ... HTML and CSS has a render cycle, one main thread, time consuming and slow 15:05:58 ... 2 years ago, when I started working on TV devices, I looked at the Lightning framework 15:06:08 ... This uses WebGL and , not HTML and CSS 15:06:26 ... I thought canvas was for drawings or games, why use it for TV UI? 15:06:43 ... As a web developer, I love HTML+CSS, needed to research this 15:07:07 ... HTML+CSS lives on the DOM, canvas designed for complex bitmap operations 15:07:28 ... DOM tries to do many things, makes it hard to do one thing, render graphics 15:07:57 ... The web platform has evolved, WebGL, WebGPU as next evolution for faster graphics on the web 15:08:27 ... WASM as a binary format. More flexibility new for how to create web content 15:08:52 Will_Law has joined #me 15:08:56 ... As we develop TV apps, and want to make a great TV user experience, what do we need for the next generation of TV UIs? 15:08:56 q? 15:09:24 ... We don't know what the future holds. We need feedback on how the process is working. How to build UIs on TVs 15:09:42 ... I want better threading capabilities to offload from the main thread 15:10:08 ... Memory debugging is also critical, devices have 500MB to 1GB of memory, so need to be able to track down memory usage issues 15:10:29 ... What are some best practices? What tools to use? HTML+CSS or canvas rendering? WASM? 15:10:51 ... Upcoming in the agenda is MiniApps, could we have a search and discovery layout in a MiniApp? 15:11:12 ... [Demo of Flex app] 15:11:31 ... I can develop the TV UI on my computer's browser 15:12:03 ... I could do something similar in HTML+CSS, but not sure how to make certain features 15:12:28 ... It's very performant. I've been trying to optimise the experience. I have some dropped frames 15:12:44 ... Lazy loading. Hard to keep to 60 fps, even 30 fps is difficult 15:13:02 ... As we navigate the UI, we lazy load rows. Loading a row takes 50 ms on my Macbook Pro 15:13:22 ... If you put that on a set-top box, it will take 200ms and by janky 15:13:40 ... How to lazy load content? Be smarter with threads? Building a highly performant UI is challenging 15:14:00 ... What can W3C do to offer new technologies for people building web UIs for TV? 15:14:02 q? 15:14:38 cpn: any questions? 15:14:59 MarkLomas: Interesting presentation. When we discuss at the BBC, we get asked about accessibility 15:15:15 ... How do you go about that? 15:16:05 ChrisL: You don't have the same accessibility needs on a TV. With voice guidance for navigation we have text strings read out and what actions are available 15:16:31 q+ 15:16:37 ... It's important to define best practices for a11y 15:16:58 q? 15:17:08 Dong_Young: I'm from LGE. My team is working on TV apps written in JS. We use React+Redux 15:17:12 q+ dong-young 15:17:14 q- d 15:17:36 ... What I find is that our apps time is used to execute JS code, more than DOM rendering. We don't find DOM is the bottleneck 15:18:10 ... I think it's more convenient, when you want to write text, if we use WebGL, it can be as powerful as DOM for text rendering 15:18:54 ... We find the web engine uses a lot of memory for the image cache 15:19:15 ... TV apps use a lot of thumbnails that occupy the cache 15:19:37 ... It can take a lot of memory. Would be good if there were a mechanism to control the image cache 15:20:01 ChrisL: We've also built with React+Redux. Depending on your application needs, HTML+CSS is fine 15:20:15 ... It's only when you get to fancy animations that the bottlenecks appear 15:20:43 ... Also handling AJAX responses. Need to figure out how to get better with web workers, 15:20:45 yasushi has joined #me 15:21:09 ... Marquee text is also an issue. How to make it fit a certain width and scroll 15:21:32 ... Images also take the majority of memory. How to have the highest quality image with lowest memory? 15:21:47 qq+ mark 15:22:01 q- mark 15:22:15 MarkLomas: About the Device Playback Spec from Will's presentation. Would having a performance baseline test be useful? 15:23:10 Will: Not 100% sure, but we don't have extensive tests for canvas. We were very media-centric initially. The canvas side should be extended, with other aspects of visual rendering 15:23:35 ... We need experts in the WAVE group, we have people who know about ISOBMFF, but not so much about how to use canvas 15:24:00 ChrisL: Devices designed to play 4K video. Some devices have problems playing video if there's too much memory being used 15:24:30 Will: Has anyone built a test suite to see how well devices work? 15:24:54 ChrisL: Lightning has a test suite called Strike, it runs through all the graphical operations and gives a performance report 15:25:07 Will: Does that correlate with user experience? 15:25:20 ChrisL: It's pretty real world. We'll open source at one port 15:26:08 W?: It does give good results. We've added CPU results. It runs on anything, good score on latest iPhones 15:26:36 ... Identify boundaries where it gets interesting from a performance point of view 15:26:42 s/W?/Wouter/ 15:27:02 John: I work with ChrisL and Wouter. I'm co-editor of the WAVE HTML snapshot 15:27:35 ... Would that, or other, test suite, be useful in industry. Testing that the API exists isn't enough 15:28:06 ... What would people want to see from that test suite? Should push for a standard on what playback means on the web? 15:28:33 ChrisL: One thing I'd suggest for the test framework is to have web page that plays video but increases memory usage at the same time 15:28:50 ... Then you could see how much memory could be used before playback stutters? 15:28:51 q? 15:29:21 https://www.w3.org/2021/Talks/1018-voice-dd-ka/20211018-voice-breakout-dd-ka.pdf 15:29:28 Kaz: Two comments: Regarding the voice user interface, we're organising a workshop, so we can help from that viewpoint 15:30:15 ... Talking with people at Tokyo University, they're working on software-defined media, making a virtual device. This approach could also be of interest. They're interested in Web of Things for that purpose 15:30:37 ... Joint discussion with WoT group would be helpful 15:30:40 -> https://sdm.wide.ad.jp/en/ SDM project 15:31:16 s/SDM/Software Defined Media (SDM)/ 15:31:25 Benjamin: If we want to start baseline conformance testing, what device to use, what would a useful reference device be to use from a browser vendor point of view? 15:31:41 q? 15:31:43 q- 15:31:54 ChrisL: Great question, don't have an answer. The latest Google or Apple phone is much faster than devices used in some contries 15:32:17 ... Don't know how often people get new TVs 15:33:21 Jon: The thing about performance testing on TVs is that the product lifetime is a very long time 15:34:25 ... We'd love to see a performance measurement that we can pass to suppliers 15:35:25 atai has joined #me 15:35:41 AdamD has joined #me 15:35:50 ChrisL: I'm reminded of an article on benchmarking mobile devices from Addy Osmani 15:36:27 ... If you compare a top of the line phone to an average phone, it's a 1.5 difference in parse time 15:36:31 jpiesing has joined #me 15:37:17 ... We could use that to develop a baseline. Test on different TVs to debug on real world devices 15:37:18 Wojciech has joined #me 15:37:46 Will: I'm interested in Strike and Lightning. Who runs these projects? 15:38:04 TV manufacturers will only meet performance criteria if they (we) are forced to by content providers as a condition to get access to their content. 15:38:29 Wouter: It's primarily Comcast open source. It's for the Lightning community. Lots of variables to see if a device will run it, WebGL performance 15:38:38 ... We're in the process of open sourcing 15:38:51 i/I'm reminded/@@jpiesing's point to be merged here/ 15:38:51 Wojciech_ has joined #me 15:39:20 Will: This meeting is making clear is that UI rendering is a blocker. Would be an interesting fit to extend our test runner 15:39:45 ... We'd want to make it not Lightning focused though 15:40:19 Wouter: That makes sense. WebGL is a great rendering engine, as it gets you close to the GPU 15:40:29 ... Thanks to Netflix for setting the bar there 15:40:30 q+ jeff 15:40:30 q+ kaz 15:40:31 A relatively objective test suite with a clear definition of a pass is would be good for TV manufacturers who outsource the UA to help focus their suppliers :) 15:41:13 ... Building the UI in WebGL is expensive, needs specialist skills. Want to allow JS developers to build performant UIs 15:41:20 ... Happy to discuss futher 15:41:23 q? 15:41:25 ack j 15:41:41 Jeff: Will, you mentioned that a key thing to fix is UI rendering 15:41:57 ... There's lots of pieces to that. Some may be in WebGPU, some elsewhere 15:42:11 ... Are we on a path to fixing it? What else should we be doing? 15:42:46 Will: I don't think we're on a path to fixing it for TVs. TVs may have the weakest processors in the devices you typically used 15:43:02 ... From a WAVE point of view, we want to measure the problem, hence the point about testing and measuring 15:43:38 ... Having a spec to aim for. WAVE is interested in enabling that route 15:43:38 s/typically used/typically use/ 15:43:47 ... What's currently happening isn't working 15:44:03 q+ 15:44:36 Kaz: When I talked with NHK, they're wondering about performance problem with switching from TV tuner to browser-based streaming and vice-versa 15:44:53 ... Is there also a performance problem there? 15:46:51 ChrisN: Reinitialise decoder pipeline, buffer data 15:47:08 ack k 15:47:12 ack c 15:47:24 q+ crisL, dongyoung 15:47:26 ChrisL: In response to Wouter, canvas and WebGL is a good solution, but there's not enough specialists 15:47:31 ack c 15:47:58 ... Is WebGL a good solution. Is a JS on top of that a good solution. Do we need a different rendering that's more performant? 15:48:09 ... We need people who've built TV apps to chime in 15:50:42 q? 15:51:07 cpn: there are kind of different approaches 15:51:23 ... we'll provide low-level building blocks 15:51:40 ... what's the most useful direction? 15:51:45 ... how to move forward? 15:51:52 ack d 15:52:06 DongYoung: To Jeff's question, my biggest pain is memory optimisation 15:52:24 ... A typical TV app uses lots of memory, and the web app doesn't have a way to optimise memory use 15:52:34 q+ John_Riviello 15:52:40 q+ 15:52:49 ... If there's a hint for image caching that could help. Any mechanism that a web app could use to control the cache would be helpful 15:52:50 q+ jeff 15:53:30 JohnRiv: What would performance spec language look like? 15:53:33 i/there are/scribenick: kaz/ 15:53:56 i/To Jeff's/scribenick: cpn/ 15:54:02 ack j 15:54:03 ... Performance tooling 15:54:21 ChrisL: That depends on how the code is written. The Chrome tooling is there, maybe needs porting to webkit 15:54:33 q+ jeff 15:54:39 ack john 15:55:21 atai has joined #me 15:55:24 cpn: you can have a guidance 15:55:35 ... fingerprinting of devices 15:55:43 ... which features would work well or not 15:55:53 ... the features are switched off 15:56:04 ... kind of progressive enhancement 15:56:11 ... that is the current approach 15:56:30 ... which features are usable and performance 15:56:30 q? 15:56:41 q+ Jon_Piesing 15:56:44 ack jon 15:57:03 Jon: That's point important. Having a target is important, it's something you can aim for 15:57:21 i/you can/scribenick: kaz/ 15:57:27 i/That's/scribenick: cpn/ 15:57:52 ... A set of benchmarks are great, but if there's no target for each benchmark, there's nothing you can use to leverage with suppliers 15:57:54 q+ mark_lomas 15:58:00 ack mark 15:58:27 Mark: On performance metrics, if you want a solid 60 fps or higher, you need to commit to not dropping frames 15:58:51 ... We might have good tools in Chrome, but you don't hav control over background taksks such as GC 15:58:54 kinjim_ has joined #me 15:59:01 ... You also need to understand the system as much as the app 15:59:19 ... Is there something that can be provided in that? 15:59:37 ... E.g., working with a game console there was a guarantee from the manufacturer on the CPU that they'd use 15:59:46 ... Something like that would be valuable 15:59:52 ack jeff 16:00:34 Jeff: On how to follow up, could run a TF to investigate and come up with recommendations 16:01:16 ... Discussion on performance, things we don't usually standardise. As they're important, we should study how to do that 16:01:35 ... Before we didn't know how to standardise a11y, but now do 16:01:49 ... Performance seems like a grasp-able project 16:02:49 ack k 16:03:03 Kaz: I suggest we create a dedicated TF, to clarify which part can be handled by MEIG, and which needs help from external orgs 16:03:32 cpn: kind of joint discussion between MEIG and WAVE 16:03:58 ... in a practical sense, the next meeting will be held on Wednesday to see the update on Hybridcast 16:04:11 ... and then joint discussion with MiniApps 16:04:41 ... we'll be very much interested in the discussion 16:04:48 q+ judy 16:04:51 ack j 16:05:16 jb: happy to help you get right people on accessibility 16:05:27 cpn: definitely. thanks! 16:05:37 ... we'll publish our minutes publicly 16:05:52 ... thank you so much for your contributions, all the speakers! 16:06:05 [adjourned] 16:06:10 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:06:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/25-me-minutes.html kaz 16:10:11 hfujisawa has left #me 16:38:39 rrsagent, bye 16:38:39 I see no action items