13:50:10 RRSAgent has joined #epub 13:50:10 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/10/25-epub-irc 13:50:12 RRSAgent, make logs Public 13:50:13 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), dauwhe 13:50:31 Meeting: APA + AG + Silver + EPUB 3 Joint Meeting 13:50:47 present+ 13:51:22 zakim, who's here? 13:51:22 Present: janina 13:51:24 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, mgarrish, janina, dauwhe, dkaplan3, wendyreid, github-bot, join_subline, AramZS 13:51:39 present+ 13:52:37 present+ 13:52:50 avneeshsingh has joined #epub 13:55:03 present+ 13:57:28 present+ 13:57:33 shadi has joined #epub 13:57:36 chair: janina 13:57:36 Karen has joined #epub 13:57:50 JakeAbma has joined #Epub 13:57:56 FredrikFischer has joined #epub 13:57:57 PaulG has joined #epub 13:58:04 Present+ 13:58:12 Yanni has joined #epub 13:58:21 present+ 13:58:22 jeanne has joined #epub 13:58:23 present+ 13:58:29 present+ 13:58:32 present+ 13:58:56 scribe+ dauwhe 13:58:58 JakeAbma_ has joined #Epub 13:59:14 shiestyle has joined #epub 13:59:22 Ryladog has joined #epub 13:59:37 Present+ Katie_Haritos-Shea 13:59:39 bruce_bailey has joined #epub 13:59:45 Present+ 13:59:52 gpellegrino has joined #epub 14:00:27 JenG has joined #epub 14:00:34 present+ 14:00:38 janina: welcome everyone! 14:00:43 MattChan has joined #epub 14:00:55 MichaelC has joined #epub 14:01:02 SamKanta has joined #epub 14:01:03 present+ 14:01:09 present+ 14:01:09 MelanieP has joined #epub 14:01:09 ShawnT has joined #epub 14:01:10 ToddLibby has joined #epub 14:01:10 present+ 14:01:13 present+ 14:01:13 Present+ 14:01:15 present+ 14:01:16 present+ 14:01:16 present+ 14:01:17 present+ 14:01:21 present+ 14:01:24 regrets+ Tzviya 14:01:46 jasonjgw has joined #epub 14:01:50 CharlesL has joined #epub 14:01:59 present+ 14:02:02 present+ 14:02:03 present+ 14:02:05 janina: welcome, this is a joint meeting between APA, AG, Silver, and EPUB3 14:02:13 Roy has joined #epub 14:02:25 ... WCAG will be W3C accessibility guidelines 14:02:31 duga has joined #epub 14:02:37 ... today we are looking at metadata 14:02:38 JustineP has joined #epub 14:02:42 present+ 14:02:47 present+ 14:02:50 present+ 14:02:58 ... metadata might be helpful in how we implement and specify 14:03:05 ... epub has used metadata for twenty years 14:03:07 JF has joined #epub 14:03:09 Jennie has joined #epub 14:03:13 Present+ 14:03:19 Present+ 14:03:24 ... and now uses schema.org to describe aspects of our publications 14:03:32 romain has joined #epub 14:03:39 ... and APA etc might want to use metadata 14:04:02 George has joined #epub 14:04:07 Gottfried has joined #epub 14:04:09 present+ 14:04:17 present+ 14:04:21 present+ 14:04:25 ... there's an APA/EPUB meeting later this week 14:04:34 ... on thursday, same hour 14:04:42 ... AG/Silver folks are welcome 14:04:51 ... we're looking at the three specs 14:04:56 George has joined #epub 14:05:03 ... EPUB has asked for horizontal review 14:05:22 ... let's benefit from all our joint expertise 14:05:28 MURATA has joined #epub 14:05:31 present+ 14:05:37 George has joined #epub 14:05:41 ... and there's a personalization spec moving forward 14:05:58 julierawe has joined #epub 14:05:58 ... enough of my intro :) 14:06:02 Wilco has joined #epub 14:06:02 present+ 14:06:07 ... could someone give us an overview of metadata in epub 14:06:12 present+ 14:06:16 ... how it's being used, how it's benefitted publications 14:06:22 q+ 14:06:37 ... that will precipitate questions 14:06:38 q? 14:06:44 ack avneeshsingh 14:06:52 avneeshsingh: starting wtih a11y metadata 14:06:57 George has joined #epub 14:07:01 ... it was DAISY implementing 20 years ago 14:07:12 ... EPUB started in 2014/2015 in A11y spec 1.0 14:07:24 ... Matt, George, please jump in 14:07:27 jenniferS___ has joined #epub 14:07:40 ... in 2015 we explored how to expand discoverability metadata 14:07:51 ... people need to know before buying if the book has a11y features 14:08:07 q? 14:08:16 Victoria has joined #epub 14:08:18 ... IMS Global, DAISY, Benetech, etc. we were working on extending schema.org metadata around a11y 14:08:29 ... we expanded schema.org a11y metadata 14:08:35 ... we just added the values to our spec 14:08:48 ... (this was under IDPF) 14:08:57 George has joined #epub 14:08:59 Joshue108 has joined #epub 14:09:00 ... it was normatively referenceing schema.org metadata 14:09:09 present+ 14:09:11 ... note that schema is not the only metadata scheme used 14:09:19 ... ONIX is widely used 14:09:30 ... but was behing, but we filled the gap in ONIX 14:09:31 George has joined #epub 14:09:35 ... but now this work is in w3c 14:09:41 q+ 14:09:43 rickj has joined #epub 14:09:49 ... EPUB a11y spec went into ISO in 2018 14:09:50 present+ 14:09:50 plh has joined #epub 14:10:05 George has joined #epub 14:10:05 ... then the issue was raised, how can it point to schema.org a11y metadata normatively 14:10:18 present+ 14:10:28 Jemma has joined #epub 14:10:33 s/behing/behind/ 14:10:34 ... so in ISO version we did not reference schema normatively, we moved to the techniques doc which was not normative 14:10:50 present+ 14:11:06 Bill_Kasdorf has joined #epub 14:11:18 ... there was a long discussion in EPUB group, the consensus was that schema.org metadata has governance and process, then EPUB a11y can normatively reference 14:11:26 q+ 14:11:26 q? 14:12:05 George: the terms came from access for all, an IMS Global standard. Greg and Madeline worked on it, it was approved years ago 14:12:09 ... we used their terms 14:12:21 ... where we wanted new info, we created our own 14:12:23 ... there weren 14:12:28 ...'t too many 14:12:38 ... IMS is not actively working on or modifying that spec 14:12:40 ack janina 14:12:54 janina: the underlying question I raised with PLH 14:12:57 George has joined #epub 14:12:59 ... looking at Process 2021 14:13:11 ... lots of significant changes 14:13:28 ... how do we normatively reference metadata not at w3.org 14:13:29 Gottfried_ has joined #epub 14:13:36 kirkwood has joined #epub 14:13:39 ... the answer from PLH is that we'll look at it on a case-by-case basis 14:13:46 q+ 14:13:48 ... the maintenance would be a question 14:13:56 ... how broadly implemented? 14:13:57 George has joined #epub 14:14:02 Judy has joined #epub 14:14:07 ack mgarrish 14:14:08 ack janina 14:14:09 --> https://www.w3.org/2013/09/normative-references Normative References 14:14:12 mgarrish: that mirrors what we discovered 14:14:23 jroque has joined #epub 14:14:33 ... we can't control schema.org, we can't prove it's stable 14:14:33 q+ 14:14:37 George has joined #epub 14:14:43 ... we work on the vocabs, but we don't control the properties 14:14:47 present+ 14:14:53 jcraig has joined #epub 14:15:17 +1 to Matt 14:15:26 ... putting metadata into schema doesn't do anything on it's own. The browsers need to support. 14:15:33 rrsagent, make minutes 14:15:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/25-epub-minutes.html jcraig 14:15:35 ... bookstores need to make a11y metadata available 14:15:38 q? 14:15:55 ... there's lots of info, but it needs to be available to the end user 14:15:57 George has joined #epub 14:16:11 ack CharlesL 14:16:14 ... we need to identify what to express, but the harder part is the implementation 14:16:34 CharlesL: bookstores are starting to display this a11y metadata from within the epub 14:16:36 George has joined #epub 14:16:39 ... vitalsource was the first 14:16:43 Aimee_U has joined #epub 14:16:46 ... redshelf is starting 14:16:54 present+ 14:16:56 q+ 14:17:08 q+ 14:17:25 ... re: schema.org, I was working with them, we got some properties for a11y hazard, feature, access modes, etc. 14:17:28 ... those are stable now 14:17:37 ... it's in their spec 14:17:50 ... the values that go with the properties, "we don't control those 14:17:53 ..." 14:17:57 George has joined #epub 14:18:08 ... "see what sticks, and as people use it it becomes more usable" 14:18:11 q+ 14:18:13 ... but we wanted a preset list 14:18:24 ... we started a wiki with benetech 14:18:29 ... we needed a more formal process 14:18:48 ... that's why we're bringing it into w3c space, with a more formal process with voting 14:18:51 +1 to Charles 14:18:57 George has joined #epub 14:19:07 ... w3c has the idea of registry 14:19:13 ... and we would do that work in a CG 14:19:21 ... under the schema CG 14:19:25 present+ 14:19:25 ack plh 14:19:32 plh: I linked to the guidance 14:19:53 ... you can always argue precedence 14:19:57 George has joined #epub 14:20:06 ... the hardest time is the first time 14:20:14 ... we can look at how updates to schema are done 14:20:20 q+ 14:20:28 ack George 14:20:38 George has joined #epub 14:20:41 George: NNELS has also implemented this metadata 14:20:52 ... they ingest the EPUB and read the metadata 14:21:20 ... but in other cases the system might not have access to the EPUB itself, so they'd need the metadata in ONIX 14:21:34 ... we also wrote a doc on how to translate the metadata into a user-friendly format 14:21:55 ack Bill_Kasdorf 14:21:57 George has joined #epub 14:22:19 Bill_Kasdorf: Benetech's global certified accessible includes the use of this metadata 14:22:33 q+ 14:22:44 CharlesL: it's required by the EPUB 1.0 a11y spec, 14:22:53 ... and needs to support screenreaders 14:22:56 ack rickj 14:23:01 rickj: on what george said... 14:23:02 ... it 14:23:22 ... it's not just that ONIX is needed if you don't have the physical file, it's needed for everything 14:23:29 can we get a link to the Benetech video to W3C? 14:23:38 ... and we need that info for backlist 14:23:52 ack janina 14:23:54 ... and we also need to reconcile differences between metadata embedded in EPUB vs ONIX 14:23:57 George has joined #epub 14:24:14 janina: my concern... we may expose the need to extend what kind of metadata we are captureing 14:24:21 ... as we bring in more people with disabilities 14:24:33 ... cognitive and learning disabilities 14:25:01 ... lots of interest in videos etc 14:25:11 ... html5 captures the ability to have alternative versions 14:25:51 ... we need to look at extensibility 14:25:57 George has joined #epub 14:26:09 mgarrish: 14:26:11 ... and what about ONIX? 14:26:12 ack mgarrish 14:26:19 mgarrish: re: precedence 14:26:21 q+ 14:26:30 ... in the pub manifest spec we normatively reference schema.org 14:26:58 ... the only concern I have with schema is that it's IMS's metadata 14:27:08 ... working in the CG to define it there is probably ideal 14:27:20 ... there's some politics there :) 14:27:22 ack avneeshsingh 14:27:31 avneeshsingh: we did consider registries seriously 14:27:41 Lionel_Wolberger_ has joined #epub 14:27:44 ... the organizations who developed this are not members of w3c 14:27:49 q? 14:27:57 George has joined #epub 14:28:03 ... a CG is more acceptable 14:28:04 present? 14:28:18 ... and there's also ONIX, MARC21, which are governed by external organizations 14:28:26 ... those can't be moved to w3c registries 14:28:46 q? 14:28:56 ... we will have to be able to deal with outside metadata 14:29:44 jcraig: can you clarify your comment about ??? 14:29:57 George has joined #epub 14:29:58 janina: there are multiple symbol sets, which are not mutually comprehendable 14:30:05 s/about ???/about Bliss/ 14:30:06 s/???/Bliss 14:30:13 q+ to ask what next steps could be? 14:30:20 Q+ 14:30:30 ... some symbol sets are capable of greater nuance 14:30:48 ... but there's a numeric value, which allows some sort of translation between symbol sets 14:30:57 https://www.blissymbolics.org/index.php/ 14:31:09 ... so the user could use the vocab they understand 14:31:31 ... but we need implementations 14:31:54 ... we need a proof of concept with the data-dash prefix 14:31:57 George has joined #epub 14:32:07 ... then ask whatwg for a reserved prefix in html5 14:32:09 q+ 14:32:37 George has joined #epub 14:32:38 ack jcraig 14:32:48 jcraig: you menteioned that you implemented bliss in some apa doc 14:33:07 ... and you mentioned a11y metadata indicating an EPUB supports bliss or other symbolic character set 14:33:13 George has joined #epub 14:33:19 janina: it's an emerging spec from personalization task force 14:33:25 ack JF 14:33:42 JF: in personalization work 14:33:45 George has joined #epub 14:33:47 ... we're creating new attributes 14:34:00 ... allow for transformation or insertion of symbols into text 14:34:03 ... lots of symbol sets 14:34:08 ... bliss is a large one 14:34:10 George has joined #epub 14:34:10 https://www.blissymbolics.org/index.php/ 14:34:17 ... it's open source 14:34:28 Here is our specification which discusses Symbols.https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/content/index.html#symbol-explanation 14:34:29 ... we have permission from the owners... 14:34:37 ... all their symbols have numeric indentifers 14:34:44 ... so we could use that number 14:34:48 ... they might have a home symbol 14:34:50 George has joined #epub 14:35:05 ... other symbol sets have the same idea, we can use the numeric identifier to map between sets 14:35:30 ack jeanne 14:35:30 jeanne, you wanted to ask what next steps could be? 14:35:30 George has joined #epub 14:35:32 * Very helpful explanation JF, thank you! 14:35:38 jeanne: I'm from WCAG 3 14:35:42 ... this is great info 14:35:51 ... what should our next steps be 14:35:59 APA demo videos: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/video-examples 14:36:06 ... if we want to start building additional ... extending the metadata that we currently have 14:36:14 ... do we need a CG? Spin up something new? 14:36:23 q+ 14:36:29 ack mgarrish 14:36:40 mgarrish: in terms of existing a11y metadata and schema 14:36:55 ... we're working with dan to set up a maintenance group inside the schema CG 14:37:00 q+ 14:37:07 ... we want a place to republish in w3c space 14:37:27 ack avneeshsingh 14:37:30 ... if you want to add metadata, you'd do in your own group and then approach schema 14:37:37 Q+ 14:37:49 avneeshsingh: I had the same question. Have you worked on the metadata already under patent policy? 14:37:57 George has joined #epub 14:38:01 ... if not you can work in CG 14:38:10 ack JF 14:38:14 ... if done in w3c you can consider a registry 14:38:24 JF: Janina touched on registries 14:38:30 ... I'm part of all these groups 14:38:42 ... going forward we want to include more metadata in wcag 3 activity 14:38:48 ... I don't think we know all the metadata yet 14:38:57 ... is schema the place to go for that? 14:39:06 ... or should it be moved closer to the mothership 14:39:15 ... to augment or echo schema 14:39:16 George has joined #epub 14:39:21 ... that's where I have questions 14:39:35 ... how can we extend existing metadata, and if so where 14:39:37 Shadi, Don't know about APA video page. Has been stable for sometime. 14:39:42 q+ 14:39:57 ack CharlesL 14:39:59 PeterKorn has joined #epub 14:40:03 CharlesL: to answer John's question 14:40:16 present+ 14:40:16 ... orginally we wanted to bring this metadata into the work at w3c 14:40:27 ... but didn't want to have all of the formal requirements around membership 14:40:35 Q+ 14:40:48 q+ 14:40:48 ... since we were already working in scchema, and there was already a CG 14:40:50 George has joined #epub 14:40:53 ... that would be a good place to work 14:41:01 ... get vocabs formalized in CG space 14:41:07 ... and then move into W3C WG 14:41:18 ... into a REC, note, registry, etc 14:41:26 ... the CG would be the steppingstone 14:41:45 +1 to Charles 14:41:57 George has joined #epub 14:42:07 ack JF 14:42:08 ... we could tell schema CG that we need something new for WCAG 14:42:15 JF: that's where my head's been at 14:42:27 ... the formality thaat I think we are looking for is around the vocabulary 14:42:43 ... for example purpose of inputs, with a token list from html5 14:42:54 ... but html5 is living standard, and in whatwg 14:43:11 ... what happens if html5 changes those values, what happens to wcag 2.1? 14:43:18 ... so we echoed the values in two places 14:43:26 ... which is brittle 14:43:30 q+ 14:43:39 ... but we don't want microformats where anyone can change the terms 14:43:50 ... we need a registry with a formal process for getting terms in 14:43:53 q? 14:43:57 ack janina 14:43:57 George has joined #epub 14:43:57 janina: what i'm hearing 14:44:12 ... suggesting the schema CG 14:44:17 ... as the place to sandbox 14:44:20 q? 14:44:22 ... for all the APA specs 14:44:31 q+ 14:44:31 ... personalization, pronunciation... 14:45:05 ... lots of media-related things we'll need 14:45:15 ... I hear we don't want a wiki, as it is not reliable enough 14:45:19 q+ 14:45:34 ... i hear comfort about working in the CG and then move to a w3c registry 14:45:38 ack mg 14:45:43 mgarrish: yeah, that's the desire 14:45:51 ... be able to have a referencable registry 14:45:56 ... it's just problematic here 14:45:57 George has joined #epub 14:46:08 ... we developed the properties separately from the cg 14:46:31 ... you can develop the properties wherever you want, but then you need to submit to schema 14:47:07 ... and you can define the vocabs wherever you want 14:47:24 ... even organizational docs have been linked to for vocabs 14:47:37 ... you can continue to develop stuff in APA, there's just liasing with schema 14:47:40 q+ 14:47:57 George has joined #epub 14:47:59 ack george 14:48:21 George has joined #epub 14:48:34 George: the various metadata standards out there--ONIX for books, JATS, MARC21—making sure that we hae a solid crosswalk mapping betewen these 14:48:48