15:40:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #silver-conf
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15:40:54 <sajkaj> Meeting: Silver Conformance Options Subgroup
15:41:04 <sajkaj> Date: 21 Oct 2021
15:41:10 <sajkaj> Chair: sajkaj
15:41:16 <sajkaj> rrsagent, make log public
15:42:19 <sajkaj> Agenda+ Agenda Review & Administrative Items
15:42:19 <sajkaj> agenda+ WCAG3 Timeline and Conformance Options https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yzR1H0SnNFRELGchb_BJr4Necsrj6xVjDF1n7Tc0kTc/edit?usp=sharing
15:42:22 <sajkaj> agenda+ Sampling & Reporting -- Initial Use Cases https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YgiOg3CZz-LAVxRT0CWUTWHzyVa3UrjqdU4NvoyUZ_8/
15:42:25 <sajkaj> agenda+ Media Continued https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Media.Next
15:42:28 <sajkaj> agenda+ Other Business
15:42:30 <sajkaj> agenda+ Be Done
15:42:37 <sajkaj>  agenda?
15:44:31 <sajkaj> regrets: Azlan_Cuttilan, Bruce_Bailey
15:44:37 <sajkaj> rrsagent, make minutes
15:44:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/21-silver-conf-minutes.html sajkaj
15:48:20 <sajkaj> rrsagent, make minutes
15:48:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/21-silver-conf-minutes.html sajkaj
15:53:00 <sajkaj> present+
15:53:06 <sajkaj> zakim, who's here?
15:53:06 <Zakim> Present: sajkaj
15:53:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, sajkaj, Jemma, MichaelC, Rachael, trackbot
15:58:23 <PeterKorn> PeterKorn has joined #silver-conf
15:58:37 <PeterKorn> present+
15:59:38 <Bryan> Bryan has joined #silver-conf
15:59:48 <Bryan> present+
15:59:49 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #silver-conf
16:01:49 <jeanne> present+
16:02:35 <shadi> shadi has joined #silver-conf
16:02:45 <shadi> present+
16:03:21 <PeterKorn> scribe PeterKorn
16:03:58 <PeterKorn> scribe: PeterKorn
16:04:38 <sajkaj> zakim, next item
16:04:38 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Administrative Items -- taken up [from sajkaj]
16:04:53 <jeanne> agenda?
16:05:20 <maryjom_> maryjom_ has joined #silver-conf
16:05:27 <PeterKorn> Sajka: reviewing agenda
16:05:30 <Wilco_> Wilco_ has joined #silver-conf
16:05:36 <maryjom_> present+
16:05:36 <Wilco_> present+
16:06:29 <PeterKorn> Sajka: Got a new GitHub issue; worth going through those soon?
16:07:32 <PeterKorn> Sajka: expect we could reply to one or a few Github issues with the next public working draft.
16:08:11 <PeterKorn> Sajka: reminder, we aren't meeting next week - we have a joint meeting with ePub at this time next week during TPAC.  Also Silver meetings this Friday and next are likewise cancelled.
16:08:37 <sajkaj> zakim, next item
16:08:37 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- WCAG3 Timeline and Conformance Options https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yzR1H0SnNFRELGchb_BJr4Necsrj6xVjDF1n7Tc0kTc/edit?usp=sharing -- taken up [from sajkaj]
16:09:10 <PeterKorn> q+
16:09:30 <sajkaj> ack pet
16:09:43 <shadi> scribe: shadi
16:09:56 <shadi> PK: row 8, description not fully there
16:10:02 <shadi> ...seems it needs updating
16:10:42 <shadi> ...also wondering about moving work on sampling to later?
16:10:54 <sajkaj> q?
16:10:57 <shadi> ...seems other things need to be resolved earlier
16:11:11 <Wilco_> q+
16:11:22 <shadi> ...finally, not seeing anyone assigned to conformance levels and wonder if we want to sing up for that
16:11:25 <PeterKorn> PeterKorn: scribe
16:11:31 <shadi> scribe: PeterKorn
16:11:37 <PeterKorn> Jeanne: Cell c8 doesn't seem to match with 3rd party content at all
16:11:40 <PeterKorn> (thanks Shadi)
16:12:10 <sajkaj> q?
16:13:11 <jeanne> q+ to talk about Representative Sampling gating scoring
16:13:18 <PeterKorn> Wilco: Want to put as much in parallel as possible, hence Representative Sampling where it is
16:13:23 <jeanne> ack
16:13:32 <sajkaj> q?
16:13:39 <Wilco_> ack w
16:13:41 <PeterKorn> Jeanne: Representative Sampling is a gating toward scoring
16:13:56 <PeterKorn> ...hard drive to get to scoring in larger group
16:13:58 <PeterKorn> q+
16:14:19 <shadi> ack jeanne
16:14:19 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to talk about Representative Sampling gating scoring
16:14:23 <PeterKorn> ...multiple scoring proposals have been hit by lack of sampling
16:14:27 <shadi> scribe: shadi
16:14:37 <sajkaj> q?
16:14:40 <sajkaj> ack pet
16:14:43 <shadi> PK: maybe have different view point on sampling
16:14:55 <sajkaj> q+
16:15:09 <shadi> ...think it is a mechanism to gain confidence that the content behaves as you think it may behave
16:15:20 <shadi> ...it doesn't tell you if you pass or fail
16:15:26 <shadi> ...or if there are 0 errors
16:15:39 <shadi> ...just gives you a certain level of confidence
16:15:56 <shadi> ...helps backup a claim you make
16:16:10 <shadi> ...but not really able to do much more than that
16:16:22 <PeterKorn> Scribe: PeterKorn
16:16:26 <jeanne2> jeanne2 has joined #silver-conf
16:16:26 <Wilco_> q+
16:16:29 <shadi> ...concerned how important sampling has become
16:16:44 <shadi> ack saj
16:17:10 <shadi> q+
16:17:17 <PeterKorn> Janina: feels similarly. I think there is an expectation of further refinement in the concept of sampling (sample from different portions of site)
16:17:25 <PeterKorn> ...process sampling for example
16:17:53 <sajkaj> ack saj
16:18:13 <sajkaj> ack wil
16:18:26 <PeterKorn> Wilco: curious what others' perceptions are.  What Peter said matches Wilco's understanding.  Approximation of reality.
16:19:15 <PeterKorn> ...example of how this might work with scoring; in Netherlands there is a sampling methodology in WCAG-EM. It would allow some number of "minor issues" (e.g., 5 out of sample)
16:19:38 <PeterKorn> ...that is how scoring might work.  Based on some number of your sample.  At a meta-page level (vs. within a page)
16:19:44 <sajkaj> ack shad
16:20:09 <PeterKorn> Shadi: hearing Jeanne's explanation, relationship between sampling & scoring, it strengthens argument for signing up for conformance levels.
16:20:42 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #silver-conf
16:20:48 <sajkaj> q?
16:21:00 <PeterKorn> ...several on this call involved in WCAG-EM development.  Has shortcoming for single page applications, especially complex apps (e.g. web-based word processor)
16:21:32 <PeterKorn> ...other shortcomings as well, which we weren't able to solve in WCAG-EM.  Hence WCAG-EM focus on website.
16:21:48 <Bryan> q+
16:22:01 <PeterKorn> ...increasingly common cases in WCAG 3, which WCAG-EM doesn't solve.  Not trying to shoot things down, everything late & in a hurrt
16:22:14 <PeterKorn> ...a focus on sampling right now takes away some decision of what conformance will even look like
16:22:33 <PeterKorn> ...feels conformance needs more maturity before we can look at sampling, scoring, and conformance levels
16:22:36 <sajkaj> ack bry
16:22:48 <PeterKorn> Bryan: How important that we understand relationship between sampling & scoring to do this?
16:23:00 <sajkaj> q?
16:23:05 <PeterKorn> ...can we do sampling, and then have scoring sit on top of that
16:23:47 <sajkaj> q?
16:23:48 <PeterKorn> Jeanne: Bryan's understanding matches her's.  Proposal for sampling large, dynamic sites will inform scoring.  That is why feels sampling should come first.
16:24:15 <PeterKorn> ... for levels, lots of people with various ideas on levels.  If we do that first, fears we will tie ourselves in knots and have to do over
16:24:29 <sajkaj> q?
16:24:45 <PeterKorn> ...feels order is sampling, then scoring, then levels.  And whole group wants to work on scoring.
16:25:04 <PeterKorn> Janina: are we still expecting a table-like scoring approach?
16:25:27 <PeterKorn> Jeanne: don't know.  Lots of different ideas; don't know how group will go
16:26:22 <PeterKorn> Janina: Feels like chicken-and-egg.  Maybe early sampling thoughts; drafty; from which we can then look at other things, vs. fully mature sampling.
16:26:29 <Bryan> +1
16:26:38 <sajkaj> q?
16:26:46 <PeterKorn> Jeanne: thinks that is the expectation for sampling at this point
16:27:07 <PeterKorn> ...thinks a logical starting point is use cases.
16:27:33 <PeterKorn> ...this group has good experience with starting with use cases, then getting to proposals coming from those use cases
16:28:21 <shadi> scribe: shadi
16:28:28 <sajkaj> q?
16:28:31 <Wilco_> q+
16:28:33 <shadi> Janina: what was your question PK?
16:28:47 <PeterKorn> scribe: PeterKorn
16:28:47 <shadi> PK: should we sign up for conformance levels?
16:28:53 <sajkaj> ack wil
16:28:59 <PeterKorn> Wilco: would not want us to take on conformance levels.
16:29:16 <PeterKorn> ...that is a meta question, feels we need to figure out the individual pieces.
16:29:33 <PeterKorn> ...feels levels is better later, and so many opinions, feels larger group needs to work on this
16:29:34 <PeterKorn> q+
16:29:39 <PeterKorn> Jeanne: +1
16:29:42 <maryjom_> +1 to Wilco
16:29:42 <PeterKorn> scribe: shadi
16:29:51 <sajkaj> ack pet
16:30:10 <sajkaj> q?
16:30:16 <shadi> PK: maybe misunderstanding but isn't everything that the sub-group works on preliminary?
16:30:31 <shadi> s/preliminary/starting point
16:30:52 <shadi> ...not only necessarily voted up or down, could be taken up
16:31:21 <shadi> WF: already a document with 15 or 20 different proposals
16:31:28 <sajkaj> q?
16:31:35 <shadi> ...all depend on how other things fall ot
16:31:40 <shadi> s/ot/out
16:32:04 <sajkaj> q?
16:32:14 <shadi> ...meta-level topic that touches on everything we are doing
16:32:47 <PeterKorn> scribe: PeterKorn
16:33:19 <sajkaj> zakim, next item
16:33:19 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Sampling & Reporting -- Initial Use Cases https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YgiOg3CZz-LAVxRT0CWUTWHzyVa3UrjqdU4NvoyUZ_8/ -- taken up [from sajkaj]
16:33:44 <shadi> q+
16:33:48 <sajkaj> q?
16:33:58 <sajkaj> ack sha
16:34:36 <PeterKorn> Shadi: Sees a lot of "catch-all" items in the google doc.
16:34:49 <sajkaj> q?
16:34:53 <Bryan> q+
16:34:57 <PeterKorn> ...thinking about this a bit more systematically, what are the issue behind the challenges
16:35:15 <PeterKorn> ...what is the responsibility of a technical standard, and what belongs in policy
16:35:43 <PeterKorn> ... example: user-generate content / 3rd party content - is it the nature of the content, or is it a feasibility issue?
16:36:08 <PeterKorn> ... if user generated wasn't a large volume, would it be so much problem?
16:36:09 <maryjom_> q+
16:36:27 <PeterKorn> ... looking again at user-generated, what belongs in technical standard, what belongs in policy?
16:37:12 <PeterKorn> ...would like to map these out, so we can develop solutions for what belongs in technical standard, what fits better into guidance for policy makers on how to take this work up
16:37:21 <jeanne> q+
16:37:35 <PeterKorn> ...don't have a concrete proposal to put forth right now
16:38:06 <PeterKorn> ...hair salon example from Google doc.  WCAG too complex for typical "mom & pop" store to digest.
16:38:06 <jeanne> q+ to talk about the separation of policy and representative sampling as related to scoring
16:38:20 <PeterKorn> ...what is minimum level of expectation for people to develop things, put them out there
16:38:29 <PeterKorn> ...just as we expect user to have some knowle
16:38:34 <Wilco_> q+
16:38:54 <PeterKorn> ...knowledge of their AT.  One thing to build an Ikea cabinet, another to be a carpenter
16:39:04 <sajkaj> bry
16:39:27 <PeterKorn> Bryan: looking at the Google doc., can we help a content provider understand if they are large/medium/small?
16:39:48 <shadi> +1 to Bryan on getting more specific
16:39:56 <PeterKorn> ... definitions out there for these.  Would that help with sampling & scoring?
16:40:59 <PeterKorn> maryjom: so much is focused on websites.  There are large web apps, they get updated rapidly.  Want to make sure we incorporate that in.
16:41:11 <PeterKorn> ...can't do full a11y testing for every small iteration.  How would sampling work for that?
16:41:24 <PeterKorn> q+
16:41:29 <PeterKorn> ack Bry
16:41:34 <PeterKorn> ack mary
16:42:08 <jeanne> ack
16:42:26 <sajkaj> q?
16:42:35 <sajkaj> ack jea
16:42:35 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to talk about the separation of policy and representative sampling as related to scoring
16:42:42 <PeterKorn> jeanne: (to Shadi) representative sample isn't about policy.
16:43:03 <PeterKorn> ...goal: allow people to pass when they aren't perfect.  Trying to move away from 100% perfection.
16:43:23 <PeterKorn> ...in order to do that, we need a way to determine if a site has chosen a good path through site
16:43:40 <PeterKorn> ...to enable us to score "how much is good enough?"
16:43:50 <PeterKorn> ...to get consistency, so it can be replicated
16:43:56 <PeterKorn> ...not going into policy area about it
16:44:02 <sajkaj> ack wil
16:44:17 <shadi> q+
16:44:38 <PeterKorn> Wilco: WCAG 2 doesn't consider more reasonable measures for different types of people putting things on web
16:44:58 <PeterKorn> ... 9 yo cousin puts things on web; he won't put language tags.  Too high an ask for him.
16:45:20 <PeterKorn> ... he can put video on YouTube.  Can we expect captions from him?  Should we expect YouTube to caption it?
16:45:47 <PeterKorn> ...browsers aren't required to make all content they serve up be a11y.  Larger the org is, more responsibility they have.
16:46:15 <PeterKorn> ...degres and levels in here that matter, and WCAG 2 doesn't go a good job of addressing those.
16:46:18 <sajkaj> ack pet
16:46:28 <shadi> scribe: shadi
16:46:49 <shadi> PK: responding to Jeanne on samping
16:47:03 <shadi> ...absent some scoring mechanisms and absent some levels
16:47:24 <shadi> ...that say this is an amount of imperfection
16:47:50 <shadi> ...but sampling alone doesn't say what is acceptable
16:47:55 <sajkaj> q+
16:48:01 <Wilco_> +1
16:48:06 <shadi> ...when I hear you say this is the route to that, this concerns me
16:48:17 <jeanne> q+ to agree with Peter, but our group can set the rules for sampling
16:48:23 <shadi> ...it is a yard-stick not the bar itself
16:48:38 <shadi> ...exercise in statistics for grad students
16:48:49 <shadi> ...see the need to develop use cases here
16:49:08 <shadi> ...for example large vs small, static vs dynamic, etc.
16:49:33 <shadi> ...sampling gives you an idea
16:50:11 <shadi> PK: then getting to the 9 year-old
16:50:29 <shadi> ...or moms & pops shops
16:50:44 <shadi> ...what of that belongs in the technical standard
16:51:01 <shadi> ...vs what belongs in the policy that sits on top of that
16:51:31 <shadi> ...making the distinction how the content is created
16:51:54 <shadi> q-
16:52:20 <shadi> ...saying which parts are user-generated vs not
16:52:40 <shadi> ...encouraging the 9 year-old to provide captions
16:52:55 <shadi> ...providing automatic captioning to support them
16:53:18 <PeterKorn> scribe: Peter
16:53:23 <sajkaj> ack shad
16:54:42 <PeterKorn> sajka: Critical errors are also important here.  Submit buttons (for example) are still a headache, 20 years after web a11y began.
16:55:29 <sajkaj> ack saj
16:55:29 <PeterKorn> ...tolerance for critical errors should be much lower than 9yo uploading YouTube video
16:55:43 <shadi> q+
16:55:44 <PeterKorn> jeanne: agree with Peter on place / role of sampling.
16:55:51 <sajkaj> ack jea
16:55:51 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to agree with Peter, but our group can set the rules for sampling
16:55:54 <PeterKorn> ...but need to work on rules for sampling
16:55:59 <PeterKorn> q+
16:56:13 <PeterKorn> ...a big task, important task
16:56:33 <sajkaj> ack shad
16:56:50 <PeterKorn> Shadi: +1.  Concerned with the google doc - putting it into conformance challenges.  Do we lower requirements?
16:57:08 <PeterKorn> ... (extreme not being argued for) since 9 yo can't do it, shouldn't require it.
16:57:24 <PeterKorn> ...where do authoring tools fit in (eg., for user generated)
16:57:47 <PeterKorn> ...need to look at what conformance means, what technically the developer must do, what policy maker must do
16:58:06 <PeterKorn> ...hence looking at sampling a bit later, after we work on conformance more generally
16:58:19 <PeterKorn> ...not just user generated becomes a large flow of content.
16:58:26 <PeterKorn> ...and that hits feasibility.
16:58:45 <jeanne> We need use cases across the spectrum of small medium large, dynamic vs transactional vs static, should we allow multiple types of declarations of sampling, etc
16:58:55 <shadi> scribe: shadi
16:59:30 <shadi> PK: sampling static site may be different from sampling an app
17:00:02 <shadi> ...gut feeling is that representative sampling of apps by 3rd parties will be a difficult nut to crack
17:00:20 <shadi> ...so maybe some reliance on the author is important
17:00:29 <shadi> ...need to focus on the use cases
17:01:50 <sajkaj> rrsagent, make minutes
17:01:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/21-silver-conf-minutes.html sajkaj
17:46:51 <sajkaj> sajkaj has left #silver-conf