07:10:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #openwebdocs
07:10:48 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/10/21-openwebdocs-irc
07:10:49 <dom> RRSAgent, stay
07:10:51 <dom> RRSAgent, make log public
12:11:03 <jeff> jeff has joined #openwebdocs
13:30:20 <jorydotcom> jorydotcom has joined #openwebdocs
13:44:24 <jorydotcom> @dom I have not gotten an email / link with the call info - is there somewhere I should be looking?
13:49:27 <jorydotcom> thank  you!
13:51:29 <dom> -> https://github.com/openwebdocs/project/raw/main/OWD%20Impact%20and%20Transparency%20Report%202021%20-%20Final%20Draft.pdf OWD Impact and Transparency Report 2021
13:56:24 <Jennie2> Jennie2 has joined #openwebdocs
13:57:36 <Bert> Bert has joined #openwebdocs
13:57:52 <dom> scribe+
13:57:54 <dom> Present+ Dom
13:58:02 <dom> Present+ JeanYvesPerrier
13:58:02 <dom> Present+ JoryBurson
13:58:04 <dom> Chair: JoryBurson
13:58:11 <dom> Present+ EricMeyer
13:58:21 <dom> Present+ JennieDelisi
13:58:25 <dom> Present+ MarieClaireForuge
13:58:28 <dom> s/uge/gue/
13:58:40 <dom> Meeting: Open Web Docs 2021 Impact & Transparency Report
13:59:21 <dom> Present+ anssiKostiainen
13:59:25 <emeyer> emeyer has joined #openwebdocs
13:59:38 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:59:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/21-openwebdocs-minutes.html dom
14:02:05 <dom> Present+ BertBos
14:02:42 <emeyer> present+
14:05:29 <Najib> Najib has joined #openwebdocs
14:07:13 <marie> marie has joined #openwebdocs
14:07:19 <marie> present+
14:10:10 <dom> dom has joined #openwebdocs
14:12:01 <dom> [Jory reviews https://github.com/openwebdocs/project/raw/main/OWD%20Impact%20and%20Transparency%20Report%202021%20-%20Final%20Draft.pdf ]
14:12:18 <dom> Present+ Mohammad_Almousawi
14:12:20 <dom> Present+ Najib
14:12:26 <dom> Present+ Lola
14:26:38 <Jennie2> q+
14:27:16 <dom> Jennie: thanks for the great intro
14:27:30 <dom> ... how do you integrate Digital Accessibility best practices that you're producing?
14:27:39 <dom> ... do you have a tagged version of the PDF available for review
14:28:04 <dom> Jory: we will make that available shortly - the version published was done in a rush
14:28:13 <Jennie2> Making Content Usable for People with Cognitive Disabilities: https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/
14:28:26 <dom> Jennie: I'm part of the cognitive accessibility task force in W3C
14:28:42 <dom> ... we've created documents on how to create more usable content for users with cognitive disabilities
14:28:52 <dom> ... is that part of your approach?
14:29:11 <dom> jory: definitely
14:29:17 <dom> q+
14:29:28 <Jennie2> ack Jennie
14:29:38 <dom> jory: we've taken into account localization for instance - this is something we can add to our conversations in developing our project plans
14:29:46 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #openwebdocs
14:29:47 <dom> q+
14:31:24 <dom> dom: no systematic approach on this - clearly aligned with OWD charter https://github.com/openwebdocs/project/blob/main/charter.md
14:31:39 <dom> ... some work done on information architecture is going in that direction, but this needs more attention
14:32:00 <dom> Jean-Yves: the move to github in markdown will help in identify systematic issues in the content
14:32:34 <dom> ... we've already received contributions that remove assumption that something is "simple" thanks to the github setup
14:32:57 <dom> anssi: great work
14:33:15 <dom> ... there is a lot of exciting opportunities to integrate W3C spec work and related documents incl MDN
14:33:29 <dom> ... here is a concrete use case: a developer looking for info on an in-development API
14:33:53 <dom> ... the info is scattered around: explainers, draft specs (with various level of introductory material), perhaps some early MDN documentation
14:33:59 <dom> ... are there opportunities to re-use content
14:34:07 <dom> ... geared towards understanding a new feature?
14:34:19 <dom> ... sometimes there is duplication across these different efforts
14:34:50 <dom> jory: one of the things we ask a lot is at what point is it appropriate to start documenting something on MDN
14:35:12 <dom> ... there is a risk to document things too early - then the documentation might be out of date quickly creating confusion
14:36:21 <dom> anssi: should there some sort of label for experimental features?
14:36:41 <dom> ... MDN is the reference for many developers - if it doesn't exist there, it doesn't exist
14:36:51 <dom> ... which may push people toward vendor-specific web sites
14:37:04 <dom> ... whereas MDN or W3C would provide vendor neutral info
14:37:21 <dom> ... I understand the cost of tracking experimental features
14:37:40 <eric> eric has joined #openwebdocs
14:38:07 <dom> https://github.com/mdn/pab/issues/65 https://github.com/mdn/pab/issues/81
14:38:11 <marie> dom: this discussion comes up often.
14:39:06 <marie> ... reuse of explainers in specs, but more rethinking to be done instead of copy-paste
14:40:01 <marie> ... there has been early discussions in keeping track of what's happening in browser compat, keep track of the specs' status, etc.
14:40:29 <marie> ... so, clearly there is work towards this direction
14:40:46 <dom> scribe+ marie
14:40:53 <dom> ericM: did you have a particular feature in mind?
14:41:28 <dom> anssi: not one in particular - but there are a number of new features where e.g. web.dev gets lots of search engine visibility
14:41:49 <dom> ... I would prefer they get visibility in a more vendor neutral space
14:42:15 <dom> ericM: +1 on having MDN being the trusted foundation vs any one browser
14:42:25 <dom> ... there is been a lot of discussions around this
14:42:35 <dom> ... I've been involved in documenting the Temporal API coming in JavaScript
14:43:01 <dom> ... it hasn't gone live on MDN because until very recently there wasn't even experimental support in any browser
14:43:08 <dom> ... it has just shipped behind a flag in safari
14:43:28 <dom> ... there was a period where I had browser compat data that was just all "false"
14:43:45 <dom> ... there was a strong sense that if it's not supported anywhere it shouldn't be in MDN
14:44:06 <dom> ... to the risk that developers would assume MDN documents any "pie-of-the-sky" idea
14:44:24 <dom> ... but how much implementation should exist before we start publishing documentation
14:44:31 <dom> ... we're getting there with Temporal
14:44:53 <dom> ... there is areal question of whether this is the point where we should put up that reference information
14:45:10 <dom> ... as it becomes more and more supported, people are going to search looking for this
14:45:30 <dom> ... more an art than a science
14:45:44 <marie> s/areal/a real
14:45:47 <dom> ... e.G. temporal being a top-level JavaScript, with lots of interest from browser implementors
14:46:06 <dom> ... might get earlier than a CSS feature only available in one preview browser without much interest from other vendors
14:46:35 <dom> ... this has to be balanced with MDN being the place of reference where people want to find info on Web technologies, incl new ones
14:46:44 <dom> ... no formal way to decide this
14:47:11 <dom> ... As a contributor to MDN and an OWD SC, I would say that opening an issue on the mdn/content repo is probably the best way to raise a flag that MDN should document something
14:47:31 <dom> ... this will prompt the right discussion and information gathering to happen
14:47:44 <dom> ... and get a conclusion to emerge
14:48:24 <dom> anssi: another idea
14:48:37 <dom> ... at early stage specs work, getting early feedback from developers can be a struggle
14:49:11 <dom> ... would MDN be part of the solution in surfacing this and asking for developers feedback
14:50:17 <dom> https://github.com/mdn/pab/issues/83
14:50:45 <marie> dom: that's another topic discussed in MDN which outcome has been an accepted proposal: run short surveys for developers
14:51:19 <marie> ... but this mechanism has not been used yet
14:51:29 <marie> ... need to restart conversations
14:52:01 <marie> ... yesterday, we had an intro to the dev council which is actually what you are trying to accomplish
14:52:44 <marie> ... OWD does not have a direct say on what feedback mechanism could be put up on MDN.
14:52:58 <marie> ... SC discussions to get going
14:53:23 <dom> jory: the MDN DNA survey couldn't run in 2021
14:53:43 <dom> ... what Anssi is looking for wouldn't be part of what the DNA survey would collect
14:53:50 <dom> ... we can bring this up with the MDN product team
14:54:36 <dom> ... having ongoing shorter surveys would be a good way to go in that direction
14:55:07 <dom> ... generally speaking, we work closely with the MDN product team - but naturally they have the final call on MDN
14:56:31 <dom> jory: thank you all for joining today and for the discussion
14:56:55 <dom> ... please reach out to us on github or twitter, carrier pigeons - we'd love to have you more involved in open web docs
14:58:05 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:58:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/21-openwebdocs-minutes.html dom
15:01:15 <emeyer> emeyer has left #openwebdocs
15:59:48 <dom> RRSAgent, bye
15:59:48 <RRSAgent> I see no action items