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14:59:31 <dom> Meeting: Intro to developer Council - TPAC 2021 breakout
14:59:39 <dom> Chair: Lola Odelola
14:59:58 <dom> Present+ Lola, DanAppelquist, DomHazael-Massieux, EricMeyer, JackyAlciné
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15:01:05 <dom> Present+ JohnRiviello
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15:01:11 <dom> Present+ OluNiyiAwosusi
15:01:18 <dom> Present+ EricMeyer
15:01:33 <dom> Present+ ChrisNeedham
15:02:08 <dom> Present+ AdaRoseCannon
15:02:18 <dom> Present+ AramZuckerScharff
15:02:49 <dom> Present+ ChrisWilson
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15:02:56 <anssik> Present+ AnssiKostiainen
15:03:01 <AramZS> present+
15:03:07 <dom> Present+ RichardIshida
15:03:10 <dom> Present+ JeffJaffe
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15:05:25 <dom> lola: this will be an interactive discussion after my presentation
15:05:37 <cwilso> present+
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15:05:38 <dom> ... I'm a developer advocate for Samsung internet
15:06:23 <dom> ... I'll let Dan introduce himself and the TAG
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15:06:35 <dom> Dan: I work with Lola in Samsung internet devrel
15:06:44 <dom> ... I'm also cochair of the W3C Technical Architecture Group
15:06:53 <dom> ... where we review specs as they're being developed
15:07:06 <dom> ... during that, we're asking - have developers asked for this? what developers say about this?
15:07:16 <dom> ... in general, there is a need for developers to be more involved in the stadnardization process
15:07:26 <dom> ... and demistify it
15:07:38 <dom> ... I've been a strong proponent of bringing developers earlier in the process
15:07:45 <dom> ... bringing information to the developers community at large
15:07:57 <dom> ... the W3C TAG has run developers meeting when we had F2F meetings
15:08:14 <dom> ... I'm hoping the Dev Council can bring even more developers and broaden the community of developers tha tare paying attention to W3C
15:08:18 <dom> Present+ MichaelSmith
15:08:25 <dom> Present+ ChrisBlume
15:09:07 <dom> Present+ MohammadAlmousawi
15:09:47 <dom> Olu: I wanted to join the dev council - I've been interested in getting involved in W3C
15:09:58 <dom> ... I'm interested in making dev more involved in W3C
15:10:01 <dom> ... happy to help making that open
15:10:12 <dom> ... I'm a developer in @@@
15:10:28 <dom> https://www.w3.org/community/devrel/
15:10:40 <dom> Jacky: I'm a consultant making the internet interesting
15:10:50 <dom> ... there are lots of specs people don't know about, like activitystreams
15:11:00 <dom> ... what can used today to build cool services
15:11:17 <dom> Lola: there is also Boaz from Bocoup who will cochair the group with me
15:11:46 <dom> ... Part of the role of the developre council is to introduce what W3C is, so I'll start with a quick intro about what W3C is and where the dev council fits into that
15:12:11 <dom> ... W3C is a standards body for the Web, based on a set of host organizations in North America, Europe and Asia
15:12:21 <dom> ... it was started by Tim Berners-Lee, inventor the Web
15:12:33 <dom> ... W3C is comprised of Working Groups, Community Groups, Interest Group, Business Groups
15:12:49 <dom> ... Being part of a WG requires yoru organization to be a W3C Member
15:12:59 <dom> ... whereas community groups are open to anyone to join without a fee
15:13:27 <dom> ... there are also Advisory groups to give official opinions - that includes the Technical Architecture Group that Dan mentioned earlier
15:13:42 <dom> ... They give feedback on proposals to make sure they meet standards, incl ethical standards
15:14:05 <dom> ... W3C in the broader internet community is to lead to the Web to its full potential with protocols and guidelines defined as Web standards
15:14:16 <dom> ... 35 WG, 10 IG, 300+ Community and Business Groups
15:14:27 <dom> ... lots of conversations happening in W3C, which makes it hard to navigate the system
15:14:33 <dom> ... How does the council fit into all of this?
15:14:50 <dom> ... We want to be part way Community Group / Advisory Group
15:14:59 <dom> ... we're a community group, so any one can join
15:15:15 <dom> ... we're advisory in the sense that we want to facilitate bidirectional conversations between spec writers and the wider developer community
15:15:23 <dom> ... to help them ask questions and give feedback on specs
15:15:31 <dom> ... and have spec writers be confident to come and ask for input
15:15:37 <dom> ... We want people to join
15:15:41 <dom> ... How can you join?
15:15:49 <dom> ... the easiest way is to join the group on the W3C site
15:16:05 <dom> -> https://www.w3.org/community/devrel/ W3C DevRel CG
15:16:16 <dom> ... we have a github repo where we will be managing issues and questions
15:16:38 <dom> -> https://github.com/w3c/devcouncil/ Github repo
15:16:50 <dom> Lola: we have the #devrel channel on Slack where anyone can join
15:17:03 <dom> ... we want to make The W3C experience for developers a more seamless process
15:17:10 <dom> ... at the moment it can be quite overwhelming
15:17:22 <dom> ... even if you have something to say, you may not necessarily how to do it
15:17:27 <dom> ... as Olu described earlier
15:17:37 <dom> ... we want to help direct developers to the right places
15:17:53 <dom> ... on the flip side, we would also be able to help spec writers target the right audiences to get feedback
15:18:33 <dom> ... I'll now open the floor for feedback and questions
15:18:59 <dom> Lola: what are the painpoints of working with W3C you may have had?
15:19:12 <dom> ... e.g. when I get on the Web site, I find it hard how to login
15:19:26 <dom> ... or where to find the conversations happening on a given proposal
15:19:32 <dom> ... what are your painpoints?
15:20:25 <dom> Aram: I've only been there for ~ 2 years, still feel like a newbie
15:20:42 <dom> ... introducing people to IRC would be good
15:20:58 <dom> ... I've just discovered yesterday the /me convention for instance
15:21:22 <dom> Lola: very good point - a lot of the groups I'm in don't use IRC, but slack and Google Docs for minutes
15:21:31 <cwilso> I wrote a cheat sheet for IRC for the Immersive Web WG, which refers to the longer W3C guide to IRC: https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/blob/main/IRC.md
15:21:33 <dom> ... this creates inconsistent experiences across groups
15:22:10 <dom> Jeff: one of the big problems that I think we have at W3C is that we develop a spec, and we never really know if there is sufficient community to adopt and implement the spec
15:22:33 <dom> ... the WebAuthn Adoption Community Group has built a community around WebAuthn
15:22:44 <dom> ... is adoption part of the theme of what you're trying to work on?
15:22:47 <dom> Lola: at this time, probably not
15:22:53 <dom> ... not something we would be measuring directly
15:23:00 <dom> ... although we expect this would an indirect outcome
15:23:12 <dom> ... our main focus is pre-adoption phase - getting developers involved in the first instance
15:23:26 <dom> ... once they're involved and can give their feedback and been heard, they're more likely to adopt the spec
15:25:20 <dom> Jacky: having a digestible summary of all the work happening would help quite a bit
15:25:31 <dom> lola: like a weekly digest? noted
15:25:48 <dom> Richard: I'm the I18N guy in W3C
15:26:09 <dom> ... one of the things W3C struggle with is getting in touch with developers all around the world, e.g. South America, Africa, Asia
15:26:24 <dom> ... how will you reach out to devleopers globally? is there a way to reach these communities?
15:26:37 <dom> Lola: great question! one topic I care a lot about
15:26:57 <dom> ... I'm both British and Nigerian; Nigeria has a very strong developer community that I would hope to see more heard in W3C
15:27:13 <dom> ... we want to work with existing communities in Africa, Carribea, South Asia
15:27:24 <dom> ... work with the Web We Want who already have established links in these communities
15:27:50 <dom> ... I want to make sure things are more friendly before we invite a whole swath of developers
15:28:01 <dom> ... that people feel welcome and know how to navigate the system
15:28:10 <dom> ... but reaching to non-western developers is one of our priorities
15:28:19 <dom> ... we want to diversify the set of people who contribute to W3C
15:28:28 <dom> ... I haven't seen a lot of people like myself in W3C
15:29:02 <dom> Richard: tying a bit to that, we have a language enablement program to identify painpoints across languages https://www.w3.org/International/i18n-drafts/nav/languagedev
15:29:29 <dom> Lola: I also work with Open Web Docs; we ran a conference at Write the Doc conferences where we got lots of non-English contributors
15:29:50 <dom> ... everything we do is in English; if we try to reach people all over the globe, we can't assume that everyone can interact in English
15:30:26 <dom> Lola: my next question - what are your good experiences of interactions with W3C?
15:30:52 <dom> ... e.g. for me, in the privacy group, there is a lot avenues for giving feedback - on slack, github in meetings
15:31:28 <dom> Dan: one of the good points of W3C in my experience is the community aspect
15:31:53 <dom> ... most apparent to physical events such as TPAC where you see the camaraderie, the respect, generally good and positive atmosphere
15:32:10 <dom> ... would like to see that expanded beyond the small group people, to a wider group
15:32:47 <dom> ... sometimes, any organization can give negative response to people who don't know the codes of the organization, e.g. to ask questions
15:33:00 <dom> ... mitigating this problem is one thing I hope we achieve with the council
15:33:18 <dom> lola: +1 on having the council expanding this atmosphere
15:33:32 <dom> ... also we should work on working with other existing developer relations community
15:33:37 <dom> ... and expanding to more communities
15:33:56 <dom> Lola: A more general question - what do people see from a developer council? What's your wishlist?
15:34:22 <dom> ... at the session yesterday, quite a few suggestions lined up with our plans
15:35:43 <dom> ... a pattern would be the CSS WG wanting feedback from developers - we would organize a session where developers would get a presentation on the feature, and be given an opportunity for feedback
15:35:55 <cwilso>  q?
15:36:34 <dom> Lola: a few other examples from yesterday
15:36:50 <dom> ... making sure the council represent the whole community, not just big tech
15:37:05 <dom> ... also helping adding/removing items to the overall roadmap
15:37:18 <dom> ... help WGs give a clear path for managing developers
15:37:25 <dom> ... increase communication between devrel and W3C
15:37:44 <dom> ... facilitate the advertizing of the best time to give feedback to avoid situations where it's too early or too late
15:38:10 <dom> Jacky: in stackoverflow, they have a language survey
15:38:49 <dom> ... similar efforts to guide standardization efforts
15:39:01 <dom> ... AMA would be interesting - to help people understand the design of this or that feature
15:39:42 <dom> Chris: I'm a bit confused about the ultimate goal of this group
15:39:59 <dom> ... I've been a lead of Google devrel until a couple of years ago
15:40:03 <dom> ... There are a few categories:
15:40:38 <dom> ... what's new? hard to organize - we used to this a lot in Google devrel, but it's a bit scattered across features
15:40:52 <dom> ... then best practices in using well-known features - MDN & OWD do the heavy lifting
15:41:29 <dom> ... and in terms of getting input for new features - I want to strengthen the need to link with "the Web we want" effort that Microsoft started a few years ago and in which I'm involved
15:41:37 <dom> ... this is the place where anybody can ask for new features
15:42:13 <dom> ... turning these asks into an explainer of the problem space, based on research, then feature design, then attracting implementors interest
15:42:24 <dom> ... I want to understand better how to connect these efforts more closely
15:42:43 <dom> ... Google has a very large devrel team, but am not seeing anyone involved here
15:42:48 <dom> ... Want to help connect
15:42:57 <dom> Present+ xueyuan
15:43:10 <dom> Lola: in terms of the fragmentation, everything is indeed very fragmented
15:43:28 <dom> ... which maps to the very fragmented conversations in W3C
15:43:58 <dom> ... this is also reflected in possible conflicts between this session and others that may explain
15:44:14 <dom> ... this dev council concept is pretty new, and it will be very important for us to connect with existing dev advocates
15:44:29 <dom> ... the leadership team of the group is connected to various existing communities
15:45:03 <dom> ... connecting with movements like the "Web we want" is definitely going to help
15:45:18 <dom> ... likewise with connecting with existing devrel teams in bigger orgs
15:45:54 <dom> ... dev advocates can help give us broader outreach by expanding our outreach
15:46:41 <dom> Chris: what's the output of the Dev Council? The Web We Want has been running for several years and is improving its piece of the developer feature pipeline
15:46:47 <dom> ... where does the dev council wants to be?
15:46:56 <dom> ... there is a difference between a community and a council?
15:47:11 <dom> ... council gives some sense of authority that I'm not sure it has
15:47:30 <dom> ... The Google team had this "web dev council" in the past with a vetted list of people
15:47:40 <dom> ... they also have Google Developer Experts
15:48:34 <dom> Lola: re fine-tuning the goals, this is what I'm hoping to achieve with these TPAC sessions
15:48:56 <dom> ... our next meeting will be focused on a working statement to finetune our gals
15:48:59 <dom> s/gals/goals/
15:49:22 <dom> ... we want to be a place where folks can come to find out more about W3C and a place where spec writers can come to reach out to developers
15:49:42 <dom> ... we want to act as a kind of guide
15:51:01 <dom> Richard: the goal sounds good me, but reaching that goal may require a large detour
15:51:18 <dom> ... a lot of people don't know about W3C and don't necessarily understand its value
15:51:32 <dom> ... before people can come, they need to understand what they would get out of it
15:51:54 <dom> ... getting in touch with the communities you've mentioned sounds great
15:52:17 <dom> ... but you'll need to break the barrier of understanding what W3C is and how it benefits developers
15:52:23 <dom> Lola: 100% agree
15:52:37 <dom> ... when I first joined, I didn't know what W3C was
15:52:46 <dom> ... I knew it by name, but not more than that
15:52:54 <dom> ... Olu had that same challenge
15:53:03 <dom> ... a story I get from a lot of people in the community
15:53:33 <dom> ... the first phase of our work will be around outreach for W3C
15:54:46 <dom> DKA: after attending the Web we want session yesterday, the 1st thing in my mind was connecting it with the Dev Council
15:55:58 <dom> ... there are lot of organizations with dev advocacy functions, in some cases they're also involved in standradization
15:56:09 <dom> ... this can be the place where they can connect together when that's not happening yet
15:56:40 <emeyer> emeyer has left #dev-council
15:56:51 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:56:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/21-dev-council-minutes.html dom
15:57:20 <dom> RRSAgent, bye
15:57:20 <RRSAgent> I see no action items