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06:21:03 <dom> RRSAgent, stay
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15:02:28 <duga> present+
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15:02:54 <wseltzer> dom: I will be giving an intro presentation that will be recorded
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15:05:20 <wseltzer> dom: introduces presentation [recorded]
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15:06:05 <jyasskin> present+
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15:23:12 <Jemma> love workshop idea!
15:24:27 <wseltzer> ivan: most EPUB readers rely on webviews
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15:24:52 <wseltzer> ... so that's a big set of publishers
15:24:59 <wseltzer> ... testing is a challenge
15:25:28 <wseltzer> John_Riviello: I've been working on a web application that also has a native app
15:25:44 <wseltzer> ... it has relied on webviews
15:25:52 <wseltzer> ... now planning to replace with native screens
15:26:16 <wseltzer> ... if you have a webview making an API call, and native screen doing the same, it's hard to share
15:26:28 <wseltzer> ... e.g. http request/response
15:26:44 <wseltzer> ... big complaint on web and native dev side
15:26:58 <wseltzer> ... trying to build an app with dependencies between web and native view gets very complicated
15:27:05 <wseltzer> ... not sure what W3C role can be
15:27:16 <wseltzer> ... but that was a big factor in decision to move off webview to native
15:27:33 <wseltzer> dom: I hear both make webviews better for web, and make them better for native
15:28:12 <wseltzer> andreban: often trying to bridge gaps
15:28:29 <wseltzer> ... Fugu has been trying to bring proper APIs to the web so you don't have to bridge
15:28:54 <wseltzer> John: beyond web APIs, services
15:29:25 <wseltzer> dom: today, webviews aren't part of our design space.
15:29:37 <wseltzer> KaustubhaGovind: Google privacy/security
15:29:48 <wseltzer> ... one of our projects is Trust Tokens
15:30:27 <wseltzer> ... webviews came up a lot
15:30:44 <wseltzer> ... as you have content embedded in webviews, if they issue TT in those contexts
15:31:01 <wseltzer> ... could the app exfiltrate/hoard those tokens to use elsewhere
15:31:13 <wseltzer> ... security threat model different between webview and browsers
15:31:19 <wseltzer> ... would like a place to discuss that
15:31:45 <wseltzer> xiaoqian: Chinese browsers on Monday mentioned performance as a pain point
15:32:35 <wseltzer> dom: `thanks, please share details
15:34:14 <wseltzer> Yuanyan: Work for Alibaba on webview work.
15:34:46 <wseltzer> ... issues include performance; need to customize apps for offline use
15:34:58 <wseltzer> ... integrate native functions
15:35:30 <wseltzer> ... standardization can be beneficial to future work
15:35:37 <wseltzer> ... also native technology support experience
15:36:20 <wseltzer> ... re bridge technology, that requires lots of repetitive work. still leaves gaps such as advertising, gaming
15:36:30 <wseltzer> ... standardization would be more developer-friendly
15:36:46 <wseltzer> ... look forward to more contributions in those aspects
15:37:12 <wseltzer> dom: thanks. Should have mentioned gaming in my list of W3C related work
15:37:53 <wseltzer> Brady: I'm a publisher who uses webviews for epub
15:37:59 <wseltzer> ... issue re security model
15:38:10 <wseltzer> ... web security model doesn't neecesarily work for local curated content
15:38:18 <wseltzer> ... we need a  security model, different.
15:38:35 <wseltzer> ... e.g. we control a font,
15:39:06 <wseltzer> ... need appropriate security model
15:40:24 <wseltzer> kleber_: Chrome, work with KaustubhaGovind. re Brady's comment
15:40:58 <wseltzer> ... I'm not sure that local control of font works; content running in a webview can't be confident of the app it's inside of
15:41:18 <wseltzer> ... user could be fooled by embedding
15:41:52 <wseltzer> ... lots of assumptions about environment and security might be broken in surprising ways in webviews
15:43:12 <wseltzer> jyasskin: tension when trying to protect users from hostile webview embedders; we also want people to be able to write new browsers
15:43:28 <KaustubhaGovind> +1 to what Jeffrey said
15:43:51 <wseltzer> dom: can anyone talk about web layers, a different primitive for browsing on Android?
15:44:50 <wseltzer> ... my impression is that today, webview isn't a great place to start to build a browser
15:45:11 <jyasskin> [Nobody was around who can talk about Web Layer]
15:45:25 <wseltzer> andreban: value in discvussing use cases for which webview is being used
15:45:42 <wseltzer> ... rather than starting from webview
15:46:00 <wseltzer> ... webview lacks many APIs, runs everything in the same processs
15:46:42 <wseltzer> ... better to think of use cases: a browser, an in-app browser, loading your own content from HTTPS endpoint
15:48:18 <wseltzer> Yuanyan: lots of business in Taobao app, 80-90% of pages developed as web, replacing native development
15:48:57 <wseltzer> ... our goal is to have web pages that can be integrated with native well
15:49:49 <wseltzer> ... we look forward to developments
15:50:15 <wseltzer> ... Electron similarly uses web technoloogy to replace native
15:50:26 <wseltzer> ... I believe that will become main way in the future
15:51:40 <wseltzer> dom: likely webview usage will grow
15:51:45 <wseltzer> ... Next steps?
15:51:49 <wseltzer> ... possible W3C CG
15:52:10 <wseltzer> ... starting from use cases more than webview tech
15:52:16 <wseltzer> ... Possible workshop
15:52:19 <wseltzer> ... possibly both
15:52:36 <wseltzer> ... suggestions?
15:53:37 <wseltzer> KaustubhaGovind: document to talk about threat model, vocabulary, would be useful
15:54:03 <wseltzer> ... maybe a suite of solutions discussing tensions
15:54:22 <wseltzer> dom: I could envision that starting in CG, presenting in workshop
15:54:30 <wseltzer> jyasskin: +1 to CG to write such a document
15:55:18 <wseltzer> dom: with the input from those here expressing interest
15:55:30 <wseltzer> JohnRiv: good to use CG for pointers to next discussions
15:56:31 <wseltzer> dom: we'll start a CG, then. Let me know if you want to get involved, and watch for new CG creation
15:56:39 <wseltzer> ... dom@w3.org
15:56:59 <wseltzer> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:56:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/20-webviews-minutes.html wseltzer
15:57:06 <wseltzer> rrsagent, make logs public
15:57:21 <wseltzer> dom: minutes and recording of presentation will be available
15:57:37 <wseltzer> ... thanks all for the input and feedback
15:57:43 <wseltzer> [adjourned]
15:57:47 <wseltzer> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:57:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/20-webviews-minutes.html wseltzer
15:58:13 <dietrich_> Thanks @dom for running this session!
15:58:20 <dietrich_> ^ ++
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16:28:17 <dom> RRSAgent, bye
16:28:17 <RRSAgent> I see no action items