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13:55:45 <SteveNoble> present+
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13:57:22 <janina> Meeting: Synchronization Accessibility User Requirements (SAUR)
13:57:31 <janina> Date: 20 Oct 2021
13:57:42 <janina> Chair: Jason_White
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13:58:52 <janina> topic: Introducing SAUR and its implications
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14:01:11 <Joshue108> scribe: Joshue108
14:01:31 <Joshue108> <introductions>
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14:01:57 <nigel> Present+ Nigel_Megitt
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14:02:22 <Joshue108> JW: Thanks e'one for attending
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14:02:31 <Judy> present+
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14:02:49 <Joshue108> We are here to discuss the FPWD of Synchronization Accessibility User Requirements (SAUR)
14:03:12 <Joshue108> It has implications for future W3C guidance including future accessibility guidelines
14:03:37 <Joshue108> To define the problem..
14:03:56 <Joshue108> <Jason gives background on synchronization of accessibility-related components of multimedia, such as captions, sign language interpretation, and descriptions>
14:04:08 <Joshue108> How closely in sync do these resources need to be?
14:04:35 <Joshue108> What we have done in the Research Questions Task force (APA) is look at research literature and document findings.
14:04:50 <Joshue108> As well as the timing tolerances between different media resources.
14:05:25 <Joshue108> We cover enhancing compreshension via synchronization of captions, sign language interpretation, and descriptions
14:05:48 <Joshue108> There is a question around XR, Augmented environments - do they have different tolerances?
14:06:03 <Joshue108> We note the distinction between live and pre-recorded media also.
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14:06:54 <Joshue108> There are various issues covered
14:07:35 <Joshue108> We need to discuss how we shall document certain things - but the intent is for other groups, working in related specs can take this material and use it.
14:08:00 <nigel> q+ to note the different actors involved and their respective responsibilities to achieve the requirements
14:08:03 <Joshue108> We want to make sure this work is useful as it is developed.
14:08:44 <Joshue108> JW: Going to hand over to Steve Noble - he did most of the research here and documented the findings.
14:08:49 <Joshue108> We can then discuss.
14:09:26 <Joshue108> ack nige
14:09:26 <Zakim> nigel, you wanted to note the different actors involved and their respective responsibilities to achieve the requirements
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14:09:41 <Jennie> present+
14:09:42 <Joshue108> NM: This is really valuable reserach, in terms of being data driven.
14:09:57 <Joshue108> The Timed Text working group is happy to be invited.
14:10:08 <Joshue108> NM: Notes this is coming up in media IG and other places.
14:10:29 <Joshue108> TTWG focus is on the document format - and what text should be presented at what time.
14:11:03 <Joshue108> The diff is that you can specify the time, in a Timed Text doc - but what matters from audience perspective, is what gets presented.
14:11:26 <Joshue108> There are many things happening in a user agent that is presenting various a11y source formats.
14:11:47 <Joshue108> These requirements explain what is good for the audience, but we need to think in terms of meeting those.
14:12:11 <Joshue108> Playback requirements etc - how close should the UA get to honouring these requirements.
14:12:45 <Joshue108> There are diff jobs and responsibilities. The concern is that in defining the end result we need to ensure we note who is responsible.
14:12:59 <Joshue108> SN: Thank you. That does come through in the research.
14:13:25 <Joshue108> What we know from research does impact on the user when one media component, is in sync with another.
14:13:42 <janina> q+
14:13:42 <Joshue108> There is the question around what is possible currently, and what is experienced by the end user.
14:14:03 <Joshue108> Regarding syncing primary video and audio - if we think of a person speaking.
14:14:18 <Joshue108> That is a simple synchronization issue.
14:14:36 <Joshue108> But if they get out of sync - this causes an a11y barrier.
14:14:59 <Joshue108> For those who are lip reading, or hard of hearing, or in noisy space.
14:15:19 <Joshue108> Really, there are constraints relating to the media.
14:15:42 <Joshue108> Those in TV can control these things much more easily than in a Zoom meeting for example.
14:15:49 <Joshue108> So the environment is a factor.
14:16:09 <Joshue108> However, we are trying to find metrics.
14:16:23 <Joshue108> What are our target tolerances.
14:16:40 <Joshue108> What provides the best a11y?
14:17:17 <Joshue108> SN: These points are around, what are the technology capabilities - what is possible?
14:17:55 <Joshue108> In this doc, we are trying to look at the issues that are known.
14:18:03 <Joshue108> Link to document: https://www.w3.org/TR/saur/
14:18:25 <Joshue108> SN: I can quickly point out some of the issues we were looking at.
14:18:43 <Joshue108> e.g. the synchronization of the audio and video streams
14:19:15 <Joshue108> The research shows that for those who are not hard of hearing, a person can experience the same issues, as someone who is hard of hearing.
14:19:48 <Joshue108> This shows us that there is a range where the audio and video can be out of sync, but beyond that range can mean an a11y barrier.
14:20:26 <Joshue108> When they get very out of sync, this gets in the way of comprehension on one level, and reduces enjoyment on another.
14:20:33 <janina> q-
14:21:00 <nigel> q+ to mention that there's an asymmetry in audience experience between late and early presentation, at least of captions
14:21:25 <Joshue108> SN: The researach shows that having the video slightly ahead (milliseconds) can actually be beneficial.
14:21:44 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
14:21:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/20-saur-minutes.html janina
14:21:54 <Joshue108> You are starting to comprehend before you hear the audio
14:22:23 <Joshue108> SN: When they get out of sync it causes problems for many.
14:22:42 <Joshue108> We looked at caption synchronization. There is an issue around the rate that it comes accross.
14:23:14 <Joshue108> We attempted to provide some metrics. As well as caption synchronization capabilities.
14:23:25 <Joshue108> There will be a trade off between latency and accuracy.
14:23:57 <Joshue108> There is often latency, and human captioning can't match automated but there is a quality tradeoff.
14:24:09 <Joshue108> In live meetings, how late can the captions come?
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14:24:41 <Joshue108> We have just looked at the research, and the community will need to discuss.
14:25:06 <Joshue108> Regarding Sign Language, it is not a one to one translation.
14:25:34 <Joshue108> So there is some delay - so what kind of lag is sufficient, to not put the user at a disadvantage.
14:26:08 <Judy> q?
14:26:14 <Joshue108> Regarding video description synchronization - you are looking for available space in the audio - to describe what is going on visually.
14:26:24 <Joshue108> Impossible to have it exactly in sync.
14:26:35 <Joshue108> So what is possible and best case scenario?
14:27:03 <Joshue108> Regarding XR - we are not aware of a lot of research in XR media timing. Some here may have insights.
14:27:09 <Joshue108> So that is an overview.
14:27:26 <Joshue108> Happy to discuss and hear from others.
14:27:34 <Joshue108> ack nigel
14:27:34 <Zakim> nigel, you wanted to mention that there's an asymmetry in audience experience between late and early presentation, at least of captions
14:27:36 <atai> q+
14:27:53 <janina> q+
14:28:04 <Joshue108> NM: What you call video description may be called audio description in other places/
14:28:23 <Joshue108> You alluded to the  asymmetry in audience experience between late and early presentation.
14:29:20 <Joshue108> Early captions can be harder for people to deal with, rather than late ones.
14:29:52 <Joshue108> <Discusses point on caption latency, especially live.>
14:30:48 <Joshue108> SN: Pre-recorded captions have more scope for tweaking etc. There is a limited range of what can be done.
14:31:01 <Joshue108> There is an issue finding 'space'.
14:31:33 <Joshue108> NM: From an editorial angle - they may not be exactly mapped to what is being described.
14:32:02 <Joshue108> Comprehension can happen anyway, depending on context - sync requirements do change.
14:32:07 <Joshue108> SN: Exactly.
14:32:52 <Joshue108> SN: <Tells anecdote about audio described Broadway show - where the jokes are delivered before they happen>
14:33:41 <Joshue108> SN: It requires planning to get this right.
14:33:45 <Joshue108> ack jan#
14:33:58 <Joshue108> ack janina
14:34:34 <Joshue108> JS: Harks back to conversations we had around the time of HTML 5.2
14:35:08 <Joshue108> We have Media Accessibility User Requirements - where we looked at video, being presented as audio, or outputted as Braille/TTS
14:35:39 <Joshue108> We outlined the ability to allow the user to consume descriptions of video presented in text.
14:35:46 <Joshue108> <gives example>
14:36:35 <Joshue108> There may be more elaborate descriptions needed depending on context.
14:36:46 <Joshue108> You may also need to pause, control the steam etc.
14:37:01 <nigel> -> https://bbc.github.io/Adhere/ Demonstrator for allowing audio description to be presented in text, based on Audio Description Profile of TTML2
14:37:02 <Joshue108> Entertainment and education have different requirements
14:37:47 <Joshue108> Time off-sets etc
14:37:50 <Joshue108> q?
14:38:14 <Joshue108> JS: We can revisit as a part of WCAG
14:38:27 <Joshue108> ack andreas
14:38:31 <Joshue108> ack ata
14:38:58 <Joshue108> AT: Like Nigel I think this is valuable collection of requirements that has come up earlier.
14:39:13 <Joshue108> It would be good to have concrete values for these tolerances
14:39:36 <Joshue108> It would be good to have clearer guideline of what to do.
14:39:51 <Joshue108> Looking at the research is good - people are looking for this.
14:40:10 <Joshue108> Caption rate etc - also important.
14:40:34 <Bert> s/steam/stream/
14:40:48 <Joshue108> The European Broadcasting union also has requirements.
14:41:07 <Joshue108> Secondly, it is good to summarize but who is responsible?
14:41:30 <Joshue108> If would be good to look at what kind of technical application development are these requirements targetting.
14:41:37 <Joshue108> And at what stage?
14:41:47 <janina> q?
14:42:11 <Bert> scribeoptions: -implicit
14:42:21 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
14:42:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/20-saur-minutes.html janina
14:43:05 <Joshue108> SN: What do we do next? What ranges of tolerances should be used for a11y? But what is the goal, who will implement?
14:43:22 <janina> q?
14:43:31 <Joshue108> JW: We are discussing interesting questions.
14:43:54 <Joshue108> We should summarize the research findings and draw some conclusions.
14:44:18 <Joshue108> If you know of other who could review and submit issues, please do notify them.
14:44:21 <janina> q+
14:44:34 <Joshue108> What else can we do in the next version?
14:44:36 <Joshue108> ack jan
14:45:04 <Joshue108> JS: Coming to conclusions.. I'd like input from Nigel, Andreas and others.
14:45:24 <Joshue108> We are looking at asking the browser to buffer content, as a part of Flash mitigation.
14:45:36 <Joshue108> There will be discussions later.
14:46:05 <Joshue108> If you can buffer,  it can help users who are sensitive, when the machine can prevent this.
14:46:22 <Joshue108> Would this be helpful ? Tighter tolerances?
14:46:30 <Joshue108> Is this another use case?
14:46:49 <Joshue108> NM: Regarding video - there are legal UK requirements to avoid flashing.
14:47:00 <Joshue108> Responsibility of the content provider.
14:47:10 <Joshue108> You could extend the scope to non video?
14:47:14 <Judy> q+
14:47:23 <Joshue108> Animations could do this for example.
14:47:58 <Joshue108>  Some video providers spend effort on managing buffer time - so may be tricky if forced.
14:48:03 <Joshue108> Could work as an option.
14:48:12 <Judy> q+ to clarify the optionality
14:48:41 <Joshue108> NM: There is also an issue around @@
14:49:22 <Joshue108> JB: This is an issue around assessing a users disability status.
14:49:41 <Joshue108> Our personalization work may help with Sandboxing this.
14:50:02 <Joshue108> <Discusses non-detectable buffering implementations>
14:50:48 <nigel> q+ to ask about non-media synchronisation accessibility user requirements
14:50:54 <Joshue108> JS: IIRC the delay is very short
14:50:56 <Joshue108> ack judy
14:50:56 <Zakim> Judy, you wanted to clarify the optionality
14:51:20 <janina> https://groups.csail.mit.edu/infolab/publications/Barbu-Deep-video-to-video-transformations.pdf
14:51:25 <Joshue108> JB: I'm encouraged at the research - this may be low frequency but substantial for those effected.
14:51:27 <Joshue108> ack nig
14:51:27 <Zakim> nigel, you wanted to ask about non-media synchronisation accessibility user requirements
14:52:01 <Joshue108> NM: This has made me think - you can cause flashing in diff ways.
14:52:02 <Judy> q+
14:52:50 <Joshue108> <NM reflects on user reaction to some interactions and responses>
14:53:25 <Joshue108> NM: Should this be mentioned? Responsiveness?
14:53:40 <Joshue108> JB: We want people to think about things we are missing?
14:53:58 <Joshue108> What are the other angles - thank you for thinking more broadly.
14:54:03 <janina> q?
14:54:10 <Joshue108> ack judy
14:54:55 <janina> q+
14:55:00 <Joshue108> KP: As an aside, I've worked with transcripts and video - and it seems we are not talking enough about transcripts.
14:55:20 <Joshue108> Having multiple sources, can mean less of a problem.
14:55:29 <Joshue108> Another useful pathway.
14:55:46 <Joshue108> SN: Good point Kim.  And we haven't discussed this in the document.
14:56:14 <Joshue108> There are issues around, audio and video description etc - you want this stuff to make it into the transcript.
14:56:28 <Joshue108> This becomes an issue of incorporation.
14:56:41 <Joshue108> We've not looked at this here but we should
14:56:45 <Joshue108> ack jan
14:57:12 <Joshue108> JS: This would be helpful - we did look at this when working on the MAUR (Media A11y)
14:57:22 <Joshue108> We got many things into the HTML spec.
14:57:53 <Joshue108> But there was a meeting where it was decided (2013), to not programmatically determine these things.
14:58:04 <Joshue108> That was a long time ago - things may be different now.
14:58:16 <Joshue108> KM: I've got live examples of this.
14:58:26 <Joshue108> JS: Yes.
14:58:40 <Joshue108> KP: Also the production process is easier. I can demo.
14:58:58 <Joshue108> SN: Appreciate the input on that.
14:59:12 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
14:59:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/20-saur-minutes.html janina
14:59:35 <Joshue108> JW: Comments can be submitted via Github or sent via email etc.
15:00:02 <Joshue108> We look forward to planning other APA activities, and thanks all for a useful conversation
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