IRC log of webwewant on 2021-10-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

08:31:31 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
08:31:33 [dom]
RRSAgent, stay
08:31:36 [dom]
RRSAgent, make log public
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14:59:15 [cwilso]
Zakim, this is WebWeWant
14:59:15 [Zakim]
got it, cwilso
14:59:26 [cwilso]
chairnick: stephstimac
14:59:30 [cwilso]
scribenick: cwilso
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15:02:08 [jeff]
15:02:15 [dom]
Present+ stephstimac, cwilso, dom, briankardell, ivanherman, louisMaher, Pierre-AntoineChamin, TakioYamaoka, jeffJaffe, RakashiMinamii, EricMeyer, Andrew Williams
15:02:23 [dom]
Present+ FrancoisDaoust
15:02:28 [cwilso]
15:02:32 [cwilso]
zakim, who is here?
15:02:32 [Zakim]
Present: jeff, stephstimac, cwilso, dom, briankardell, ivanherman, louisMaher, Pierre-AntoineChamin, TakioYamaoka, jeffJaffe, RakashiMinamii, EricMeyer, Andrew, Williams,
15:02:36 [Zakim]
... FrancoisDaoust
15:02:36 [Zakim]
On IRC I see tantek, Zakim, cwilso, takio, emeyer, stephstimac, jeff, RRSAgent, dom
15:02:55 [dom]
Present+ tantek
15:03:06 [dom]
Present+ AtsushiShimono
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15:03:11 [dom]
Present+ WendySeltzer
15:03:12 [pchampin]
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15:03:15 [cwilso]
steph: I'm a PM on the MS Edge Dev Exp team, and this is about the WebWeWant project.
15:03:29 [dom]
Present+ DanAppelquist
15:03:36 [dom]
Present+ Sam
15:03:44 [cwilso]
... WWW is a x-browser standards initiative to identify problems people who build with the web have.
15:03:48 [cwilso]
...started in 2019
15:03:49 [dom]
Present+ JohnRiviello
15:03:54 [dietrich_]
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15:04:02 [dom]
Present+ DietrichAyala
15:04:05 [wseltzer]
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15:04:11 [cwilso]
... we're asking "if you could change a something about the web, what would it be?"
15:04:22 [dom]
Present+ RijubrataBhaumik
15:04:27 [dom]
Present+ JamesGraham
15:04:43 [dom]
Present+ AlexCone
15:04:46 [cwilso]
... initially started as an event session, where attendees could present lightning talks on their wants to a panel of experts;
15:05:15 [cwilso]
... due to COVID, we stopped the live events, and we've worked through the backlog of wants; we still get incoming wants, though.
15:05:19 [wseltzer]
15:05:28 [cwilso]
... Right now we have ~160-170 wants from developers
15:05:30 [dom]
Present+ anuvrat
15:05:43 [dom]
Present+ ChrisNeedham
15:05:59 [cwilso]
... [goes to]
15:06:31 [dom]
-> The Web We Want Web site
15:07:11 [dom]
-> WebWeWant/ repo
15:07:18 [cwilso]
... 3 different kinds of wants - 1) easy feature requests for browser features
15:07:27 [cwilso]
... particularly devtools...
15:07:49 [cwilso]
... 2) broader platform features - CSS or JS features. More difficult to get fixed, as they require standards.
15:08:13 [cwilso]
3) "Moonshots" - broader problem that needs quite a bit of research and design effort, as well as standards work to address.
15:08:47 [dom]
-> Wants as Markdown files in github
15:09:07 [cwilso]
... with the slowing down of events, we've pivoted to thinking about how we can better use this data
15:09:41 [cwilso]
...what we're trying to get out of this session today is what's missing from the initiative and the data we have right now.
15:09:42 [wseltzer]
15:09:51 [dom]
Present+ WolfgangSchindler
15:09:57 [dom]
Present+ MichaelChampion
15:10:05 [cwilso]
... we haven't gained a lot of traction in being a definitive source of developer engagement.
15:10:11 [dom]
15:10:13 [jeff]
q+ to comment on moving topics to CGs and standards
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15:10:48 [cwilso]
wseltzer: I see a real synergy between this and the incubation pipeline trying to hear needs that people have for the web.
15:10:54 [dom]
-> W3C Incubation Pipeline
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15:11:42 [dom]
ack jeff
15:11:42 [Zakim]
jeff, you wanted to comment on moving topics to CGs and standards
15:11:42 [wolfgang]
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15:11:44 [cwilso]
... are there places the tools could talk to one another, that the people could talk to one another, ???
15:11:44 [tantek]
q+ to comment on overlapping efforts
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15:11:47 [wseltzer]
ack me
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15:11:55 [cwilso]
jeffjaffe: interesting effort; on how to funnel this into various standards groups...
15:12:01 [cwilso]
15:12:24 [cwilso]
... I don't really understand how far you've gone on the basic processing.
15:12:53 [cwilso]
steph: triage has been done, and they've been categorized... the ones that are on the web site have had some basic research/validation done.
15:13:06 [cwilso]
... some of the wants have been ranked.
15:13:25 [dom]
present+ BertBos
15:13:31 [cwilso]
... some of the wants, there's not a lot of detail. Some of them are almost explainer-status.
15:13:35 [dom]
present+ BenjaminDeKosnik
15:13:49 [bkardell_]
15:14:04 [cwilso]
jeff: if you have an important issue with a spec, sure, you can raise it in the standards WG.
15:14:22 [cwilso]
... all of the groups have Team Contacts you can reach out to.
15:14:53 [dom]
ack tantek
15:14:53 [Zakim]
tantek, you wanted to comment on overlapping efforts
15:15:27 [JohnRiv]
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15:15:37 [cwilso]
tantek: I'm here to comment and also as a participant. I appreciate the detail Stephanie outlined in the breadth of issues that come through WWW.
15:15:57 [cwilso]
... in general, many of the wants we've seen are user-centric, which is an important perspective.
15:16:26 [cwilso]
... at W3C, sometimes we try too hard to fit everything into a standards-shaped hole.
15:16:52 [dom]
Present+ JamesNurthen, LouayBassbouss, MichaelKleber, PeterRushforth
15:17:18 [cwilso]
... standards are developed in a lot of different places (TC39, W3C, WHATWG, etc) so it's good to have both perspective,.
15:17:19 [dom]
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15:17:47 [dom]
ChrisW: we have a bunch of different participants from across the overall web platform space, not just browser vendors
15:17:54 [JohnRiv]
15:17:58 [dom]
... it's not triaging in terms of weeding out the junk, but instead feeding ideas
15:18:14 [dom]
... one challenge in incubating standards is to go from "I have a problem" to a detailed explainer to fill that gap
15:18:22 [JohnRiv]
15:18:28 [dom]
... how to prioritize this - each vendor will have a very different prioritization
15:18:35 [dom]
... getting lots of different perspectives helps
15:18:49 [cwilso]
15:19:06 [kleber]
15:19:11 [cwilso]
JohnRiviello: is there a way those of us who speak at conferences can help promote this?
15:19:18 [dom]
15:19:25 [dom]
ack dw
15:19:25 [dom]
ack cw
15:19:25 [dom]
ack jo
15:19:51 [cwilso]
steph: you can evangelize this as a community platform, people can submit directly on the Github or the web page, and participate in the discussion
15:20:01 [cwilso]
... we are looking for more engagement to prioritize
15:20:40 [cwilso]
... there is a prioritized view, I'll share
15:21:06 [cwilso]
Dom: thanks for the presentation - great source of inspiration. Are there any success stories you can share?
15:22:00 [cwilso]
steph: most of the wants that have become features are devtools features: someone did submit container queries, but I don't want to claim that as our success.
15:22:23 [cwilso]
... I like that idea.
15:22:54 [cwilso]
tantek: did we talk about the distributed upvoting system that Aaron built?
15:23:07 [Bert]
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15:23:37 [dka]
q+ to ask: do you encourage developers to document the user need when they are registering a want?
15:23:40 [Bert]
present+ Bert_Bos
15:23:50 [cwilso]
steph: no. on the website, Aaron hooked up web mentions, so we get broader reach via Twitter et al. We also wanted to hook that into Github to show want-ers.
15:24:25 [tantek]
s/web mentions/webmentions
15:24:25 [dom]
ack me
15:24:25 [dom]
ack dka
15:24:26 [Zakim]
dka, you wanted to ask: do you encourage developers to document the user need when they are registering a want?
15:24:34 [cwilso]
tantek: in particular, this was trying to plug in to the community, not just build another silo
15:24:51 [cwilso]
dka: one of the things we do in TAG is ask to document user need
15:24:53 [cwilso]
15:25:01 [cwilso]
q+ to respond to Dan
15:25:16 [cwilso]
... what do you to do inspire developer wants?
15:25:50 [tantek]
s/plug in to the community/plug into the community, and use the actual web to participate in the Web We want/
15:26:01 [cwilso]
steph: this does come up when we do research to validate whether these are validate wants
15:26:05 [dietrich_]
i wonder how the WebWeWant list compares to the MDN DNA results of top developer pain points....
15:26:24 [cwilso]
dka: when we ask for use need, we could ask them to point to WWW
15:27:19 [dom]
cwilson: we've looked at tying back to webwewant as one of the signals of developer support in our chrome process
15:27:19 [dom]
15:27:24 [cwilso]
ack cw
15:27:24 [Zakim]
cwilso, you wanted to respond to Dan
15:27:25 [dom]
ack cwilso
15:27:40 [bkardell_]
15:27:56 [dietrich_]
thanks @tantek, i'm in a mutezone!
15:28:04 [cwilso]
steph: re: MDN DNA, it's somewhat comparable.
15:28:07 [dom]
ack brian
15:28:11 [dom]
ack bk
15:28:13 [cwilso]
bkardell: they ask the questions in very different ways
15:28:45 [cwilso]
... we also have State of CSS, which asks for similar data but in very different ways; I don't think the data ends up being highly correlated.
15:28:56 [cwilso]
15:29:26 [cwilso]
steph: any other thoughts?
15:29:44 [cwilso]
bkardell: I wonder if anyone on the call has submitted a want?
15:30:01 [cwilso]
... it would be good to get some feedback
15:30:02 [jgraham]
The MDN survey ususally shows compat as a big problem, but I think the web we want is more related to features rather than difficulties with existing features
15:30:09 [jgraham]
*new features
15:30:24 [cwilso]
peter rushforth: I submitted one
15:30:33 [cwilso]
... it's excellent to be asked what you want.
15:30:48 [cwilso]
... please keep it going
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15:31:00 [cwilso]
... it doesn't come up on my radar too often, but I'd like to help promote
15:31:13 [jamesn]
15:31:26 [tidoust]
[I note that the "If you are already attending one of the events we’ll be at, would you consider presenting your idea in person?" question does not seem to have a "yes" choice]
15:31:44 [cwilso]
tantek: you can post a like of a want on your own website, and that will show up
15:32:16 [tantek]
15:32:27 [tantek]
ack jamesn
15:32:48 [cwilso]
jamesn: when you look through these on Github, if we know there's work to solve this want going on, is it useful to add a pointer?
15:32:57 [wseltzer]
15:33:02 [cwilso]
steph: yes, definitely. any references are very helpful
15:33:21 [cwilso]
ack ws
15:33:51 [cwilso]
wseltzer: in terms of browsing the site to add that metadata... is there any way to browse the site to see the metadata ("security", "css" etc)
15:34:19 [bkardell_]
this is kind of an interesting idea wseltzer
15:34:50 [cwilso]
steph: yes. On the website there isn't a good way to navigate the tags, but you can go into a want that is tagged "accessibility" and click the "accessibility" tag to get all the wants tagged with accessibility.
15:34:55 [dom]
Present+ AvneeshSingh
15:35:16 [cwilso]
wseltzer: thanks, the WebAppSec WG is looking for good ways to get developer feedback.
15:35:21 [tantek]
15:35:34 [cwilso]
steph: the website is in the process of being redesigned to make it easier to navigate.
15:36:05 [cwilso]
bkardell: I think it's a great idea to let WGs know they could participate in their own triage.
15:36:14 [kleber]
15:36:24 [cwilso]
ack kleber
15:37:10 [cwilso]
kleber: do you have any thought of the freshness of things on the site? Some things seem a little stale (article posted from 2014 on promoting secure sites in Google search results, e.g.)
15:37:56 [cwilso]
steph: I think we need to grow capacity and depth of research bandwidth.
15:38:25 [cwilso]
... we still want to bring up things that weren't addressed; but we have limited triage capacity, so we're not always experts.
15:38:29 [dom]
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15:39:00 [cwilso]
tantek: how many folks here are going to go to WWW to submit a want?
15:39:33 [cwilso]
bkardell: this seems like a somewhat biased crowd.
15:39:43 [cwilso]
... but pull requests are welcome!
15:40:21 [cwilso]
tantek: or file bugs!
15:41:14 [cwilso]
tantek: wondering if folks here every run into times that they don't know what group or organization to go to?
15:41:57 [cwilso]
Dom: working on web components frequently has this kind of confusion
15:42:19 [cwilso]
steph: incubation pipeline is the right way to express our primary intent.
15:43:05 [cwilso]
steph: question for the group: is there anything that may be missing from this data that would make it more helpful?
15:43:38 [cwilso]
peter rushforth: maybe search? More categories?
15:43:56 [cwilso]
Sam: can people submit contact info?
15:43:59 [cwilso]
steph: yes
15:44:08 [jamesn]
15:44:35 [cwilso]
JonRiviello: would be nice to know if there was like a playbook for these to go through the process
15:44:51 [dom]
the web we have
15:44:57 [cwilso]
james: can you vote without sharing on social media?
15:45:30 [cwilso]
steph: on github; we want to implement an upvote system on the site that doesn't use social media, but that's tbd
15:45:39 [cwilso]
james: github upvotes aren't synced with the site
15:46:03 [dom]
15:46:40 [cwilso]
tantek: are there other places we'd want to post upvotes other than social media?
15:46:52 [cwilso]
dom: +1s/thumbs up on GH would be useful.
15:47:08 [cwilso]
steph: we have to figure out how to get them properly synced
15:47:11 [cwilso]
15:47:14 [cwilso]
ack james
15:48:03 [cwilso]
steph: any other feedback?
15:48:52 [cwilso]
dom: we have the collection of data from browsercompatdata/MDN - that might be another entry point?
15:50:19 [bkardell_]
15:50:48 [tantek]
also answered to james: you can upvote from your own website in addition to social media
15:50:51 [cwilso]
steph: we talked about caniuse, etc.
15:50:58 [cwilso]
cwilso: not sure if it's possible to unify
15:51:25 [cwilso]
dom: related to this remotely is browsercompat data
15:51:47 [cwilso]
I look forward to steph solving this! :)
15:52:13 [dom]
-> browser-specs: A machine-readable list of specifications used to build Web browsers
15:52:16 [cwilso]
bkardell: one of the things that makes this hard to track is that although you can track back from shipping, most wants don't progress in a linear fashion to shipping
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15:52:37 [cwilso]
s/browsercompat data/browser-specs data
15:52:54 [cwilso]
... it's a squiggly line.
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15:53:20 [cwilso]
steph: thanks all!
15:53:51 [cwilso]
... you can find me on WWW or twitter (seaotta)
15:53:55 [dietrich_]
thanks for hosting this!
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15:55:17 [cwilso]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:55:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate cwilso
15:55:20 [cwilso]
rrsagent, make minutes public
15:55:20 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', cwilso. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:55:37 [wseltzer]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:56:51 [wseltzer]
15:56:51 [dom]
RRSAgent, be kinder with cwislo
15:56:51 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'be kinder with cwislo', dom. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:57:31 [wseltzer]
chair: stephstimac
15:57:35 [wseltzer]
rrsagent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate wseltzer
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