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08:31:33 <dom> RRSAgent, stay
08:31:36 <dom> RRSAgent, make log public
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14:59:15 <cwilso> Zakim, this is WebWeWant
14:59:15 <Zakim> got it, cwilso
14:59:26 <cwilso> chairnick: stephstimac
14:59:30 <cwilso> scribenick: cwilso
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15:02:08 <jeff> present+
15:02:15 <dom> Present+ stephstimac, cwilso, dom, briankardell, ivanherman, louisMaher, Pierre-AntoineChamin, TakioYamaoka, jeffJaffe, RakashiMinamii, EricMeyer, Andrew Williams
15:02:23 <dom> Present+ FrancoisDaoust
15:02:28 <cwilso> present+
15:02:32 <cwilso> zakim, who is here?
15:02:32 <Zakim> Present: jeff, stephstimac, cwilso, dom, briankardell, ivanherman, louisMaher, Pierre-AntoineChamin, TakioYamaoka, jeffJaffe, RakashiMinamii, EricMeyer, Andrew, Williams,
15:02:36 <Zakim> ... FrancoisDaoust
15:02:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see tantek, Zakim, cwilso, takio, emeyer, stephstimac, jeff, RRSAgent, dom
15:02:55 <dom> Present+ tantek
15:03:06 <dom> Present+ AtsushiShimono
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15:03:11 <dom> Present+ WendySeltzer
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15:03:15 <cwilso> steph: I'm a PM on the MS Edge Dev Exp team, and this is about the WebWeWant project.
15:03:29 <dom> Present+ DanAppelquist
15:03:36 <dom> Present+ Sam
15:03:44 <cwilso> ... WWW is a x-browser standards initiative to identify problems people who build with the web have.
15:03:48 <cwilso> ...started in 2019
15:03:49 <dom> Present+ JohnRiviello
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15:04:02 <dom> Present+ DietrichAyala
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15:04:11 <cwilso> ... we're asking "if you could change a something about the web, what would it be?"
15:04:22 <dom> Present+ RijubrataBhaumik
15:04:27 <dom> Present+ JamesGraham
15:04:43 <dom> Present+ AlexCone
15:04:46 <cwilso> ... initially started as an event session, where attendees could present lightning talks on their wants to a panel of experts;
15:05:15 <cwilso> ... due to COVID, we stopped the live events, and we've worked through the backlog of wants; we still get incoming wants, though.
15:05:19 <wseltzer> present+
15:05:28 <cwilso> ... Right now we have ~160-170 wants from developers
15:05:30 <dom> Present+ anuvrat
15:05:43 <dom> Present+ ChrisNeedham
15:05:59 <cwilso> ... [goes to https://webwewant.fyi/]
15:06:31 <dom> -> https://webwewant.fyi/ The Web We Want Web site
15:07:11 <dom> -> https://github.com/WebWeWant/webwewant.fyi  WebWeWant/webwewant.fyi  repo
15:07:18 <cwilso> ... 3 different kinds of wants - 1) easy feature requests for browser features
15:07:27 <cwilso> ... particularly devtools...
15:07:49 <cwilso> ... 2) broader platform features - CSS or JS features.  More difficult to get fixed, as they require standards.
15:08:13 <cwilso> 3) "Moonshots" - broader problem that needs quite a bit of research and design effort, as well as standards work to address.
15:08:47 <dom> -> https://github.com/WebWeWant/webwewant.fyi/tree/main/wants Wants as Markdown files in github
15:09:07 <cwilso> ... with the slowing down of events, we've pivoted to thinking about how we can better use this data
15:09:41 <cwilso> ...what we're trying to get out of this session today is what's missing from the initiative and the data we have right now.
15:09:42 <wseltzer> q+
15:09:51 <dom> Present+ WolfgangSchindler
15:09:57 <dom> Present+ MichaelChampion
15:10:05 <cwilso> ... we haven't gained a lot of traction in being a definitive source of developer engagement.
15:10:11 <dom> q?
15:10:13 <jeff> q+ to comment on moving topics to CGs and standards
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15:10:48 <cwilso> wseltzer: I see a real synergy between this and the incubation pipeline trying to hear needs that people have for the web.
15:10:54 <dom> -> https://github.com/w3c/strategy/projects/2 W3C Incubation Pipeline
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15:11:15 <marie> present+
15:11:42 <dom> ack jeff
15:11:42 <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to comment on moving topics to CGs and standards
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15:11:44 <cwilso> ... are there places the tools could talk to one another, that the people could talk to one another, ???
15:11:44 <tantek> q+ to comment on overlapping efforts
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15:11:47 <wseltzer> ack me
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15:11:55 <cwilso> jeffjaffe: interesting effort; on how to funnel this into various standards groups...
15:12:01 <cwilso> q+
15:12:24 <cwilso> ... I don't really understand how far you've gone on the basic processing.
15:12:53 <cwilso> steph: triage has been done, and they've been categorized... the ones that are on the web site have had some basic research/validation done.
15:13:06 <cwilso> ... some of the wants have been ranked.
15:13:25 <dom> present+ BertBos
15:13:31 <cwilso> ... some of the wants, there's not a lot of detail.  Some of them are almost explainer-status.
15:13:35 <dom> present+ BenjaminDeKosnik
15:13:49 <bkardell_> present+
15:14:04 <cwilso>  jeff: if you have an important issue with a spec, sure, you can raise it in the standards WG.
15:14:22 <cwilso> ... all of the groups have Team Contacts you can reach out to.
15:14:53 <dom> ack tantek
15:14:53 <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to comment on overlapping efforts
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15:15:37 <cwilso> tantek: I'm here to comment and also as a participant.  I appreciate the detail Stephanie outlined in the breadth of issues that come through WWW.
15:15:57 <cwilso> ... in general, many of the wants we've seen are user-centric, which is an important perspective.
15:16:26 <cwilso> ... at W3C, sometimes we try too hard to fit everything into a standards-shaped hole.
15:16:52 <dom> Present+ JamesNurthen, LouayBassbouss, MichaelKleber, PeterRushforth
15:17:18 <cwilso> ... standards are developed in a lot of different places (TC39, W3C, WHATWG, etc) so it's good to have both perspective,.
15:17:19 <dom> scribe+
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15:17:47 <dom> ChrisW: we have a bunch of different participants from across the overall web platform space, not just browser vendors
15:17:54 <JohnRiv> present+
15:17:58 <dom> ... it's not triaging in terms of weeding out the junk, but instead feeding ideas
15:18:14 <dom> ... one challenge in incubating standards is to go from "I have a problem" to a detailed explainer to fill that gap
15:18:22 <JohnRiv> q+
15:18:28 <dom> ... how to prioritize this - each vendor will have a very different prioritization
15:18:35 <dom> ... getting lots of different perspectives helps
15:18:49 <cwilso> scribe+
15:19:06 <kleber> q?
15:19:11 <cwilso> JohnRiviello: is there a way those of us who speak at conferences can help promote this?
15:19:18 <dom> q+
15:19:25 <dom> ack dw
15:19:25 <dom> ack cw
15:19:25 <dom> ack jo
15:19:51 <cwilso> steph: you can evangelize this as a community platform, people can submit directly on the Github or the web page, and participate in the discussion
15:20:01 <cwilso> ... we are looking for more engagement to prioritize
15:20:40 <cwilso> ... there is a prioritized view, I'll share
15:21:06 <cwilso> Dom: thanks for the presentation - great source of inspiration.  Are there any success stories you can share?
15:22:00 <cwilso> steph: most of the wants that have become features are devtools features: someone did submit container queries, but I don't want to claim that as our success.
15:22:23 <cwilso> ... I like that idea.
15:22:54 <cwilso> tantek: did we talk about the distributed upvoting system that Aaron built?
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15:23:37 <dka> q+ to ask: do you encourage developers to document the user need when they are registering a want?
15:23:40 <Bert> present+ Bert_Bos
15:23:50 <cwilso> steph: no.  on the website, Aaron hooked up web mentions, so we get broader reach via Twitter et al.  We also wanted to hook that into Github to show want-ers.
15:24:25 <tantek> s/web mentions/webmentions
15:24:25 <dom> ack me
15:24:25 <dom> ack dka
15:24:26 <Zakim> dka, you wanted to ask: do you encourage developers to document the user need when they are registering a want?
15:24:34 <cwilso> tantek: in particular, this was trying to plug in to the community, not just build another silo
15:24:51 <cwilso> dka: one of the things we do in TAG is ask to document user need
15:24:53 <cwilso> q+
15:25:01 <cwilso> q+ to respond to Dan
15:25:16 <cwilso> ... what do you to do inspire developer wants?
15:25:50 <tantek> s/plug in to the community/plug into the community, and use the actual web to participate in the Web We want/
15:26:01 <cwilso> steph: this does come up when we do research to validate whether these are validate wants
15:26:05 <dietrich_> i wonder how the WebWeWant list compares to the MDN DNA results of top developer pain points....
15:26:24 <cwilso> dka: when we ask for use need, we could ask them to point to WWW
15:27:19 <dom> cwilson: we've looked at tying back to webwewant as one of the signals of developer support in our chrome process
15:27:19 <dom> q?
15:27:24 <cwilso> ack cw
15:27:24 <Zakim> cwilso, you wanted to respond to Dan
15:27:25 <dom> ack cwilso
15:27:40 <bkardell_> q+
15:27:56 <dietrich_> thanks @tantek, i'm in a mutezone!
15:28:04 <cwilso> steph: re: MDN DNA, it's somewhat comparable.
15:28:07 <dom> ack brian
15:28:11 <dom> ack bk
15:28:13 <cwilso> bkardell: they ask the questions in very different ways
15:28:45 <cwilso> ... we also have State of CSS, which asks for similar data but in very different ways; I don't think the data ends up being highly correlated.
15:28:56 <cwilso> q?
15:29:26 <cwilso> steph: any other thoughts?
15:29:44 <cwilso> bkardell: I wonder if anyone on the call has submitted a want?
15:30:01 <cwilso> ... it would be good to get some feedback
15:30:02 <jgraham> The MDN survey ususally shows compat as a big problem, but I think the web we want is more related to features rather than difficulties with existing features
15:30:09 <jgraham> *new features
15:30:24 <cwilso> peter rushforth: I submitted one
15:30:33 <cwilso> ... it's excellent to be asked what you want.
15:30:48 <cwilso> ... please keep it going
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15:31:00 <cwilso> ... it doesn't come up on my radar too often, but I'd like to help promote
15:31:13 <jamesn> q+
15:31:26 <tidoust> [I note that the "If you are already attending one of the events we’ll be at, would you consider presenting your idea in person?" question does not seem to have a "yes" choice]
15:31:44 <cwilso> tantek: you can post a like of a want on your own website, and that will show up
15:32:16 <tantek> q?
15:32:27 <tantek> ack jamesn
15:32:48 <cwilso> jamesn: when you look through these on Github, if we know there's work to solve this want going on, is it useful to add a pointer?
15:32:57 <wseltzer> q+
15:33:02 <cwilso> steph: yes, definitely.  any references are very helpful
15:33:21 <cwilso> ack ws
15:33:51 <cwilso> wseltzer: in terms of browsing the site to add that metadata... is there any way to browse the site to see the metadata ("security", "css" etc)
15:34:19 <bkardell_> this is kind of an interesting idea wseltzer
15:34:50 <cwilso> steph: yes.  On the website there isn't a good way to navigate the tags, but you can go into a want that is tagged "accessibility" and click the "accessibility" tag to get all the wants tagged with accessibility.
15:34:55 <dom> Present+ AvneeshSingh
15:35:16 <cwilso> wseltzer: thanks, the WebAppSec WG is looking for good ways to get developer feedback.
15:35:21 <tantek> q?
15:35:34 <cwilso> steph: the website is in the process of being redesigned to make it easier to navigate.
15:36:05 <cwilso> bkardell: I think it's a great idea to let WGs know they could participate in their own triage.
15:36:14 <kleber> q+
15:36:24 <cwilso> ack kleber
15:37:10 <cwilso> kleber: do you have any thought of the freshness of things on the site?  Some things seem a little stale (article posted from 2014 on promoting secure sites in Google search results, e.g.)
15:37:56 <cwilso> steph: I think we need to grow capacity and depth of research bandwidth.
15:38:25 <cwilso> ... we still want to bring up things that weren't addressed; but we have limited triage capacity, so we're not always experts.
15:38:29 <dom> q?
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15:39:00 <cwilso> tantek: how many folks here are going to go to WWW to submit a want?
15:39:33 <cwilso> bkardell: this seems like a somewhat biased crowd.
15:39:43 <cwilso> ... but pull requests are welcome!
15:40:21 <cwilso> tantek: or file bugs!
15:41:14 <cwilso> tantek: wondering if folks here every run into times that they don't know what group or organization to go to?
15:41:57 <cwilso> Dom: working on web components frequently has this kind of confusion
15:42:19 <cwilso> steph: incubation pipeline is the right way to express our primary intent.
15:43:05 <cwilso> steph: question for the group: is there anything that may be missing from this data that would make it more helpful?
15:43:38 <cwilso> peter rushforth: maybe search?  More categories?
15:43:56 <cwilso> Sam: can people submit contact info?
15:43:59 <cwilso> steph: yes
15:44:08 <jamesn> q+
15:44:35 <cwilso> JonRiviello: would be nice to know if there was like a playbook for these to go through the process
15:44:51 <dom> the web we have
15:44:57 <cwilso> james: can you vote without sharing on social media?
15:45:30 <cwilso> steph: on github; we want to implement an upvote system on the site that doesn't use social media, but that's tbd
15:45:39 <cwilso> james: github upvotes aren't synced with the site
15:46:03 <dom> https://imgflip.com/i/5r0qsq
15:46:40 <cwilso> tantek: are there other places we'd want to post upvotes other than social media?
15:46:52 <cwilso> dom: +1s/thumbs up on GH would be useful.
15:47:08 <cwilso> steph: we have to figure out how to get them properly synced
15:47:11 <cwilso> q?
15:47:14 <cwilso> ack james
15:48:03 <cwilso> steph: any other feedback?
15:48:52 <cwilso> dom: we have the collection of data from browsercompatdata/MDN - that might be another entry point?
15:50:19 <bkardell_> q+
15:50:48 <tantek> also answered to james: you can upvote from your own website in addition to social media
15:50:51 <cwilso> steph: we talked about caniuse, etc.
15:50:58 <cwilso> cwilso: not sure if it's possible to unify
15:51:25 <cwilso> dom: related to this remotely is browsercompat data
15:51:47 <cwilso> I look forward to steph solving this!  :)
15:52:13 <dom> -> https://github.com/w3c/browser-specs browser-specs:  A machine-readable list of specifications used to build Web browsers
15:52:16 <cwilso> bkardell: one of the things that makes this hard to track is that although you can track back from shipping, most wants don't progress in a linear fashion to shipping
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15:52:37 <cwilso> s/browsercompat data/browser-specs data
15:52:54 <cwilso> ... it's a squiggly line.
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15:53:20 <cwilso> steph: thanks all!
15:53:51 <cwilso> ... you can find me on WWW or twitter (seaotta)
15:53:55 <dietrich_> thanks for hosting this!
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15:55:17 <cwilso> rrsagent, make minutes
15:55:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/19-webwewant-minutes.html cwilso
15:55:20 <cwilso> rrsagent, make minutes public
15:55:20 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', cwilso.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:55:37 <wseltzer> rrsagent, make logs public
15:56:51 <wseltzer> Meeting: WebWeWant.fyi
15:56:51 <dom> RRSAgent, be kinder with cwislo
15:56:51 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'be kinder with cwislo', dom.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:57:31 <wseltzer> chair: stephstimac
15:57:35 <wseltzer> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:57:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/19-webwewant-minutes.html wseltzer
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