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08:30:36 <dom> RRSAgent, stay
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13:59:01 <dom> Meeting: The State of Web Monetization - TPAC 2021 breakout
13:59:03 <dom> chair: Uchi_U
14:00:13 <dom> Slideset: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1FiQoWCxmJH-dThpoE3_04FjY2Y6R4rAN/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=118287430335435993018&rtpof=true&sd=true
14:02:14 <dom> Slideset: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2021Oct/att-0002/TPAC_-_Web_Monetization_Update.pptx.pdf
14:02:25 <dom> [slide 2]
14:03:14 <dom> [slide 3]
14:03:51 <dom> Present+ YiGu, TakashiMinamii, StephenMcGruer, SamWeiler, RolfLindermann, RickByers, RichardIshida, PrzemyslawIwanczak, PLH, PeterPaulKoch
14:03:53 <dom> [slide 4]
14:04:48 <dom> Present+ MichaelKleber, IvanHerman, IanJacobs, FrancoisDaoust, ChrisNeedham, BertBos, Bartek, AtsushiShimono, AndrewWilliams, AlexanderFlenniken, AlexLakatos, RalphSwick, KarenMyers, UchiUchibeke, DominiqueHazael-Massieux
14:05:09 <dom> [slide 5]
14:05:11 <dom> [slide 6]
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14:05:25 <dom> [slide 8]
14:05:39 <dom> Present+ end3r
14:06:16 <dom> [slide 9]
14:06:52 <dom> Present+ LisaSeeman
14:06:57 <dom> [slide 10]
14:07:07 <dom> Present+ ToshiakiKoike
14:08:19 <dom> [slide 11]
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14:08:57 <dom> Present+ AndrzejMazur, 51Degrees
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14:09:00 <marie> present+
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14:09:05 <dom> Present+ DietrichAyala
14:09:09 <Bert> present+ Bert_Bos
14:09:09 <weiler> present+
14:09:09 <cpn> present+ ChrisNeedham
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14:10:16 <dom> Present+ PhillipEligio
14:10:24 <dom> Present+ RolfLindemann
14:10:35 <dom> Present+ KazuhiroHoya
14:10:46 <dom> Present+ AdaRoseCannon
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14:12:12 <dom> Present+ AlexanderFlenniken
14:12:19 <dom> [slide 12]
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14:14:57 <dom> [slide 13]
14:15:14 <dom> Present+ NicolasPeñaMoreno
14:15:23 <dom> Present+ BrianKardell
14:15:40 <dom> [slide 14]
14:17:01 <dom> [slide 16]
14:19:00 <dom> [slide 17]
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14:22:15 <dom> [slide 18]
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14:24:30 <dom> Rick: I'm Rick Byers, engineer director, my team includes payment request
14:24:44 <dom> ... when we designed payment handler, this included spurring innovation for payments
14:24:51 <Ian> Ian has joined #webmonetization
14:24:53 <dom> ... there are a few integrations today, but not lots
14:25:05 <dom> ... I know the web monetization model of streaming doesn't work with payment handler
14:25:25 <dom> ... but the new one-time payment, I would love to know if payment handler wouldn't work for this
14:25:32 <dom> ... we haven't had anyone doing that as scale yet
14:25:59 <dom> Uchi: we tried the ability to send tips to web monetized web sites
14:26:11 <dom> ... will have to look more at that to know if it's using payment handler
14:26:25 <dom> ... it works by sending a user-defind amount tip that gets sent to the interledger endpoint
14:26:32 <dom> ... it can be sent in any currency
14:26:54 <dom> ... what I'm really keen to talk about how we can work together to see how web monetization can work with payment handler
14:27:13 <dom> ... our head of engineering for the interledger foundation is here
14:27:24 <dom> Alex: the current version of the spec has been developed in the CG
14:27:28 <dom> ... we haven't looked at how it could work with payment handler
14:27:38 <dom> ... we've been focusing on crystalizing the changes Uchi mentioned
14:27:47 <dom> ... I feel we should be done with that work just after TPAC
14:28:02 <dom> ... this whole web monetization provider scheme works on micropayments
14:28:18 <dom> ... where the user can afford a few cents to read a blog post or watch a video
14:28:26 <dom> ... PaymentHandler isn't really great for micropayments
14:28:35 <dom> ... whereas Interledger Protocol is built for it
14:28:55 <dom> ... when we're looking at tipping with bigger payments, Payment Handler is a better candidate for that
14:29:19 <dom> Rick: to what extent is the installation of a web extension is a barrier? esp one that can read any web site?
14:29:30 <dom> ... has an extension be good enough on desktop?
14:29:55 <dom> Uchi: it's still very early, so users are willing to install the extension to experiment
14:30:06 <dom> ... but we want to get to a stage where web monetization is built-in in browsers
14:30:18 <dom> ... and the user can sign up to their payment providers from their browser
14:30:36 <dom> ... with the goal that the payment provider can't know which web sites is being visited, how much is spent on it, etc
14:30:53 <dom> Rick: so, not a major barrier yet, but want to avoid that
14:31:20 <dom> ... I want to make sure the right extensibility hooks are available in chrome to allow that innovation
14:31:41 <dom> Alex: one of the limitations it the granularity of permissions for Web extensions in chrome
14:32:14 <dom> ... we've built the extension to be as privacy-preserving as possible, but we need to ask very broad permissions in Chrome
14:32:19 <dom> ... (better situation in Firefox)
14:32:44 <dom> Rick: if you think that matters to your user base and would help with adoption, I would be happy to help submitting a feature request to the extensions team
14:32:52 <dom> ... esp if the firefox system has a better system
14:33:05 <dom> Uchi: let's follow up on this
14:33:40 <dom> Richard: you've mentioned that a few cents is not a lot for people in countries with high income levels
14:33:56 <dom> ... I'm concerned with the inverse situation where micropayments would be required to access a lot of content
14:34:04 <dom> ... this could lock out lots of people in poorer countries
14:34:32 <dom> ... who couldn't afford to pay for the content anymore
14:34:46 <dom> ... it would help if it was possible to make it cheaper depending on the countries the user is based in
14:34:58 <dom> ... can that be addressed within the privacy constraints you operate?
14:35:27 <dom> Uchi: I agree we want to build a Web anyone can afford the content they enjoy without locking people out
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14:36:25 <dom> ... the current subscription model for Coil Web Monetization is $5/month - how that gets split across the different sites: the 1st hour on a site is 36c; once I've reached ~$4.x, smaller payments are sent to web payments creators
14:36:36 <dom> ... I don't have to pay additional money to keep enjoying Web monetization
14:36:41 <dom> ... it's one model from one provider
14:36:56 <dom> ... the idea that additional providers could come together to provide different services with different models
14:37:01 <dom> ... e.g. adapted to different localities
14:37:34 <dom> ... $5/month can be a lot for some countries, but there is room for additional providers to build other types of subscriptions
14:37:45 <dom> ... while still allowing people to enjoy web monetized content
14:37:58 <dom> ... it's still early, and we're encouraging innovation in this space
14:38:58 <dom> Richard: thanks - I still worry whether this means an end user would need to contract with many web monetization providers
14:39:11 <dom> Present+ DanAppelquist
14:39:33 <dom> Uchi: this is being discussed in the Web Monetization repo, under the "multi-pass" name
14:40:16 <Ian> [Note also there are more sessions on Web Monetization and Interledger this week]
14:40:18 <dom> Alex: the new spec thinks of Web Monetization as a feature of the browser
14:40:43 <dom> ... different providers can offer different models
14:40:55 <dom> ... all of those use cases could be enabled by different providers without having to change the spec
14:41:25 <dom> q?
14:41:53 <dom> Andrzej: do you consider storing/providing user data in some way, even as an option that a user have to turn on in their config, so I, as a game developer, can recognize it was John who played my game for 5 hours instead of a random paying user? I could use his avatar in a game, or put his details on a leaderboard, and interact more, instead of having no idea who visits my games (considering all the privacy concerns)  [from the chat]
14:42:22 <dom> Uchi: providing additional value based on the amount payed for a game
14:42:29 <dom> ... we don't want to store any data at all
14:43:25 <dom> ... instead of building data storage in the web monetization spec, we expect each app to store data in the browser
14:43:56 <dom> alex: if you wanted to do it right now with Coil, every time you get a progress event which you can use to keep track
14:44:10 <dom> ... Coil is making lots of efforts to not get any visibility on this
14:44:34 <dom> ... as a developer, you could use fingerprinting - not saying you should
14:45:05 <dom> ... you can keep track of how much payment streaming has happened
14:46:04 <dom> Andrzej: I agree with the privacy concerns; but from a game dev point of view wanting a patreon-like community,
14:46:38 <dom> ... allowing to customize the experience for / reward frequent users would be good
14:46:45 <dom> ... probably more a request for Coil than the protocol
14:48:03 <dom> uchi: a follow up on this might be to create a task on the WICG repo, where I'll bring on Ben, Adrian, Marcos to discuss how this could be done
14:48:22 <dom> -> : https://github.com/WICG/webmonetization/issues Web Monetization issues on the WICG repo
14:48:26 <ivan> present+
14:48:40 <dom> Uchi: Dietrich commented on the payment request API in the chat
14:49:57 <Ian> q+
14:50:35 <dom> Ian: we've been chatting about opportunities to open up the safari ecosystem
14:50:50 <dom> ... we've had meetings with other payment providers for cross-browser payment apps
14:51:18 <dom> ... Apple has heard the input from these providers but haven't changed their take on opening up the payment request ecosystem
14:51:29 <dom> ... I'm open to other ideas on how to change the situation
14:52:09 <dom> Uchi: reading from the chat, question form DKA: "have you talked about the environmental impacts of the distributed ledger ecosystem? "
14:52:14 <dom> ... we haven't discussed that topic
14:52:30 <dom> ... interledger and web monetization isn't restricted to distributed ledgers or specific currencies
14:52:58 <dom> ... the interledger protocol is built like TCP/IP - any currency, any ledger, banks, payment providers can become settlement engines and nodes and connect to interledger
14:53:15 <dom> ... despite its name, interledger is not limited to distributed ledger systems
14:53:39 <dom> Alex: "ledger" is associated wtih crypto nowadays, but it's a more general accounting term
14:53:53 <dom> ... interledger connects two ledgers (incl a regular bank account)
14:54:10 <dom> ... this can includes distributed ledgers, but the protocol is currency agnostic
14:54:25 <dom> ... designed to accept any currency and convert it to any other supported currency
14:54:40 <dom> ... there is nothing tied to crypto
14:55:25 <dom> DKA: I knew some of that already; I'm a Web Monetization content provider with my personal blog
14:55:36 <dom> ... in practice, if you want to use this system, you have to use a crypto wallet today
14:56:26 <dom> Alex: the network wallet can accept 96 currencies
14:56:49 <dom> ... I'm receiving money from Web MOnetization via Monzo (?)
14:57:04 <dom> ... we would like to get more nodes in the network, incl from banks, directly from the interledger wallet
14:57:14 <dom> ... we need them to provide additional payment pointers
14:57:19 <dom> DKA: thanks, that helps answer my question
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14:58:14 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:58:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/19-webmonetization-minutes.html dom
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