08:29:17 RRSAgent has joined #remotemeet 08:29:17 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/10/19-remotemeet-irc 08:29:24 RRSAgent ,stay 08:29:25 RRSAgent, stay 08:29:29 RRSAgent, make log public 12:06:08 jeff has joined #remotemeet 12:52:34 Wilco has joined #remotemeet 12:56:05 marie_s has joined #remotemeet 12:57:01 Present+ ScottHollier, JasonWhite, JohKirkwood, LouisMaher, DomHazael-Massieux 12:57:17 Present+ MatthewAtkinson 12:57:44 Present+ SamKanta 12:58:05 Present+ JudyBrewer 12:59:30 atsushi has joined #remotemeet 12:59:37 PResent+ AtsushiShimono 12:59:49 Present+ TomoakiMizushima 12:59:59 Present+ CharlesLaPierre 13:00:08 Present+ TzviyaSiegman 13:00:15 Present+ AlexandraLacourba 13:00:19 Present+ Josh 13:00:41 Present+ marie 13:00:48 Present+ JeffJaffe 13:00:50 CharlesL has joined #remotemeet 13:01:00 Present+ LeticiaSeixasPereira 13:01:04 present+ 13:01:09 Present+ SteveNoble 13:01:13 Present+ FrancisStorr 13:01:18 Present+ BertBos 13:01:28 Present+ WilcoFriers 13:01:43 -> https://www.w3.org/TR/raur/ RTC Accessibility User Requirements 13:02:05 -> https://www.w3.org/TR/remote-meetings/ Accessibility of Remote Meetings 13:02:09 Bert has joined #remotemeet 13:02:20 tzviya has joined #remotemeet 13:02:25 Scott: the important of remote meetings has become quite clear 13:02:36 ... the remote meeting note complement the work on RTC accessibility user requirements 13:02:37 present+ Bert_Bos 13:02:43 present+ 13:02:45 ... covid19 has accelerated the move to virtual meetings 13:02:45 Rain has joined #remotemeet 13:02:55 SteveNoble has joined #remotemeet 13:03:01 ... making it a critical tool to participate in communities, work, get together with family and friends 13:03:09 ... but that space has been lacking accessibility guidance 13:03:13 Tomoaki_Mizushima has joined #remotemeet 13:03:20 sudeep has joined #remotemeet 13:03:27 present+ 13:03:31 ... we've seen in the past two years a lot of innovation in this space 13:03:32 present+ 13:03:41 ... still quite a bit of room for improvements in this space 13:03:53 ... e.g. a sign language interpreter specific view - still evolving in many platforms 13:04:02 ... This is where this draft is coming from https://www.w3.org/TR/2021/WD-remote-meetings-20211014/ 13:04:11 Roy has joined #remotemeet 13:04:16 ... it makes it different from other W3C work, with quite a few different audiences involved 13:04:19 present+ 13:04:29 ... e.g. for captions, you need to have support for captions in the tool 13:04:35 ... but captions could also come from content 13:04:35 present+ 13:04:46 ... e.G; sharing a powerpoint tha twould have captions - linking this to content creation 13:04:59 ... meeting participants also need to understand what accessibility features are available and how to enable them 13:05:15 ... what we've put together in this draft is a collection of resources looking at a range of scenarios and resources 13:05:15 Matthew_Atkinson has joined #remotemeet 13:05:25 ... as it standds, the draft has a few different sections: 13:05:34 ... - procurement - how to pick tools 13:05:55 ... - development of tools - how to make sure a11y is incorporated, referencing WCAG, ATAG, UAAG 13:06:18 Present +LouayssBabouss 13:06:33 FredrikFischer has joined #remotemeet 13:06:33 ... - content creation - incl guidance on developing accessible presentations 13:06:41 ... - end users: tips to support an accessible meeting 13:06:58 present+ 13:07:12 ... We've also looked at different meeting types - e.g. a conference scenaroi like this one, telehealth, a hybrid event (cominging online and physical) 13:07:17 Francis_Storr has joined #remotemeet 13:07:23 ... other related scenarios include education 13:07:34 ... with lecture and students which need accessible materials and tools 13:07:53 ... quite a bit of guidance, both technical and non technical, with a range of audiences to ensure everyone involved is getting support 13:08:11 ... For this breakout, we're looking for input on additional resources to refer, what missing information to include 13:08:39 ... how to support additional development - e.g. sign language support, customized views for different types of accessibility needs 13:08:52 Present+ RainMichaels 13:08:56 Present+ RoyRan 13:09:01 Present+ MarieStaver 13:09:08 Present+ DanielMontavo 13:09:16 Present+ WendySeltzer 13:09:26 Judy: this document is a FPWD, targetting probably a note 13:09:40 ... what's in flux is how to present this the best way 13:09:58 ... it's providing an ecosystem of supporting resources 13:10:16 ... the research question task force part of the accessible platform architectures working group 13:10:32 ... has a series of accessibility user requirements on real-time comms, xr, synchronized media 13:10:47 ... right now, this document is parallel to those, but we hope some of it will be integrated with those 13:10:58 ... including with some of the documents developed by the education & outreach working group 13:11:10 ... this includes making audio & video accessible around captions, accessible presentations 13:11:46 ... The info in this doc has a different focus, less polished than "making audio/video accessible" which has gained a lot of visiboility during the pandemic 13:12:02 ... a remote meeting over a video conference is a presentation to some extent - as we're doing right now 13:12:29 ... if I was showing slides, I would need to be completely voicing those to make sure the content would come through to all participants 13:12:35 ... incl describing complex graphics 13:12:56 ... if there was key information for participants to take away, I would want to make sure the participants could get a copy of that if they can't see it on the screen 13:13:26 ... that includes making it available in a shareable and accessible format, like HTML or PowerPoint 13:13:48 ... accessibility of the content shared is important - this aligns with WCAG2.x (perceivable content) 13:13:56 q+ 13:14:08 ... so this involves taking existing W3C guidance on digital accessibility 13:14:29 ... The document is in flux, final format still being discussed 13:14:47 ... we're trying to identify all the roles that are involved 13:14:54 Present+ KimDirks 13:15:10 ... W3C took great care in selecting an accessible platform for this event 13:15:14 Zakim has joined #remotemeet 13:15:16 q+ CharlesL 13:15:27 Judy: we've been asking conference providers on their support for WCAG 13:15:47 ... for some of the pltaform providers, this was a new question - asking the question and engaging in the dialog is really important 13:16:01 KimD has joined #remotemeet 13:16:15 ... W3C is using CVent as a platform, with ongoing discussions with them on their accessibility offering 13:16:27 ... we hope to make this document a good reference for this kind of dialogue 13:16:54 ... for those very familiar with WCAG, you may recall there are 2 other complementary documents: authoring tool accessibility guidelines 13:16:59 Present+ BenTamblyn 13:17:12 present+ 13:17:12 ... that includes allowing to create content through accessible UIs 13:17:30 ... and the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines- what browsers, media players can do to make content accessible 13:17:43 ... we have a list of relevant tips extracted from that 13:17:56 ... e.g. making sure the control of the screen readers and video platform don't conflict 13:18:06 Present+ JustinePascalides 13:18:27 ... the chat may for instance may not be as readily available to all participants due to accessibility barriers 13:18:35 Present+ Sudeep 13:19:06 Judy: there are quite a few other examples we could review 13:19:18 ... I also have a set of questions for you all, and getting your reactions 13:19:38 ... What kind of accessibility needs and barriers did you encounter early on when the world pivotted? 13:19:42 ... has this evolved? 13:19:55 ... which part of the guidance match the most the barriers you've encountered? 13:20:06 q+ to ask if translations are in scope for this document 13:20:18 ... which sections would you like us to go deeper into 13:20:25 Sam_Kanta has joined #remotemeet 13:20:32 wseltzer has joined #remotemeet 13:20:45 kirkwood has joined #remotemeet 13:20:59 q? 13:21:18 Judy has joined #remotemeet 13:21:19 CharlesL: great work! a couple of things 13:21:31 ... I would like to see more exploration regarding the chat with screen readres 13:21:33 dmontalvo has joined #remotemeet 13:22:00 ... I've been hearing a lot issues due to chat overlapping with the audio of the remote paresentation 13:22:10 ... the other is on live captions, or close captions in general 13:22:25 ... I haven't seen any of these online meetings doing it correctly 13:22:39 ... especially when captions overlap the bottom section of the power point, obscuring text on the slide 13:22:43 q+ to respond on Charles' 2nd question 13:22:54 ... having a dedicated section on the UI would help 13:23:16 scott: both good points 13:23:31 ... with screen readers, there is a lot of announcements that can announce everything (e.g. who's joining) 13:23:35 q+ to ask about supporting cognitive and learning disabilities 13:23:43 ... there is a balance between ambient awareness vs focus 13:23:51 janina has joined #remotemeet 13:23:52 ... definitely need to more 13:23:58 present+ 13:24:11 ... captions are clearly problematic too - we have some guidance in the note about moving information around in dedicated areas 13:24:17 ... not sure if that already includes captions 13:24:45 Judy: re chat access with accessibility needs - this varies quite a bit across teleconf platforms 13:24:52 ... this also needs increased engagement with platform providers 13:24:57 We encountered a "captions on top of content in slides" preparing the slides for yesterday's Personalization slide deck. Something we'll note in TPAC feedback for the future, as it's an issue with the template. 13:25:04 ... with regard to captions, I've been in meetings where ASL interpreters are being used 13:25:15 ... making it another window that needs to stay visible 13:25:30 ... todya this can be obtained by asking participants to mute their video 13:25:43 ... there is also speech recognition vs human-curated CART 13:25:53 ... some of it can be solved by a bit of a logistical dialog 13:26:05 ... in small settings 13:26:13 ... in larger formats, this needs to be arranged more in advance 13:26:36 ... I've noticed that more of the platforms have been allowing to reposition the caption windows 13:26:43 ... not sure all platforms have that capability yet 13:26:54 ... but we've seen real time evolution in this space 13:26:58 q+ 13:27:00 ... our goal is to elevate best practices 13:27:05 ack CharlesL 13:27:09 q+ 13:27:35 Present+ PLH 13:27:54 tzviya: maybe obvious, having to have many windows open at once (e.g. here zoom + IRC) 13:28:10 ... is a challenge for a number of people, beyond disabilities 13:28:29 ... New features added e.g. in Zoom are not necessarily accessible (e.g. polling) 13:28:55 ... I also wanted to ask if translations is in scope for this 13:29:30 Judy: this raises really important things that can be looked either as practical details, or as accessibility 13:29:42 ... complexity, distractibility esp in stressful situations 13:29:53 ... we're not near to addressing that in that document but it's really important 13:30:16 ... e.g. people receiving the meeting link on their phone but needing to move to a different device 13:30:25 ... we need to cover this better in the document 13:30:39 ... I think a lot of us in the tech field have forgotten how hard that can be because we've figured out workarounds 13:30:48 ... some people are using different devices for different parts of their work 13:30:59 ack me 13:30:59 tzviya, you wanted to ask if translations are in scope for this document 13:31:15 q+ 13:31:17 ... you mentioned VPAT voluntary product accessibility template 13:31:26 ... they tend to be unilateral set of accessibility claims 13:31:40 ... not in conjunction with specific AT or other tools you need to work with 13:31:48 ... we also need to include considerations on cognitive accessibility 13:31:53 ack ju 13:31:53 Judy, you wanted to respond on Charles' 2nd question 13:32:06 Scott: I have a paper about to be published around online learning 13:32:33 ... getting on top of remote meetings and its associated complexity when combined with other learning tools made it hard 13:32:42 ... the doc hasn't picked up on this yet - very good point 13:32:58 Present+ Geun-HyungKim 13:33:21 ack Rain 13:33:21 Rain, you wanted to ask about supporting cognitive and learning disabilities 13:33:50 Rain: +1 to tzviya that adding more features increases the complexity of the UI 13:34:07 ... sensory overload can shut people down: this can be in the UI, this can be the screen reader reading along the chat 13:34:15 ... motion that can happen in some of these platforms 13:34:16 +1 to looking a complexity and COGA. 13:34:49 ... CVent has been stressful for lack of having the links ahead of time; the need to login at a specific time 13:34:56 ... if we don't keep logging in 13:35:25 ... is another issue we've faced with CVent 13:35:49 ... Another cognitive perspective: collaboration modalities 13:35:58 ... when there is this kind of remote meetings, there is collaboration in terms of the chat 13:36:26 ... but there is also when people have to engage - e.g. a remote class with collaborative sticky notes, collaborative drawing 13:36:32 ... are you also looking at that challenge? 13:37:08 ... that different modalities are available to adapt to different disabilities, incl problem with memory, or someone more comfortable with visual vs speaking vs typing 13:37:16 Present+ ElizabethDunn 13:37:53 Scott: this is my first session at TPAC; getting involved in TPAC has been tricky given timezone challenges 13:38:09 ... the problem with time-limited access to the cvent platform has been stressful for me too 13:38:43 ... one of the reasons why we have in this draft specifically, not just remote meeting platforms but have been looking at broader scenarios, is to pick up on how these diferent environments will need ways to interact 13:38:53 ... e.G. differnet modalities to itneract in an education context 13:38:57 s/ernet/erent/ 13:39:01 s/itn/int/ 13:39:06 q? 13:39:17 Judy: great input, rain 13:39:31 ... I want to apologize short advance notice on meeting links 13:39:45 ... when reviewing the platform with accessibility, there are issues that can be spot in a static format 13:39:55 ... but some of it is about the dynamic usage 13:40:19 ... we're aware this is stressful - we'll work on improving it 13:40:37 ... there are certain operational decisions that have accessibility implications 13:41:25 ... ben, we would love to get your expertise on distractibility 13:41:41 ... Re Rain's point about sticky notes, this is covered in one of the resources of the WAI EO WG on making presentations accessible 13:41:50 ... if that particular problem isn't listed there, it should be added there 13:42:09 ... we've started looking at certain areas like remote education, with lots of interest from UNESCO in getting more work done in that area 13:42:18 present+ 13:42:18 ... this would be a massive area to go into - needs proper scoping 13:42:45 Scott: re translations, we've looked mainly at the provision of captioning 13:42:53 ... text-based translations would probably be similar 13:42:56 q? 13:43:05 ... but there is also real-time translation available through audio which we haven't looked at yet 13:43:18 ... good to add that as a point of consideration 13:43:31 jasonjgw has joined #remotemeet 13:43:45 Judy: W3C is experimenting with audio interpretation 13:44:06 ... with text based captioning, it would probably be using the same channel with the captioning 13:44:16 ... this may need more considerations in the doc 13:44:19 ack janina 13:44:44 ack Wilco 13:45:13 wilco: screen sharing is regularly painful in remote meetings 13:45:21 ... a particular challenge is difference in resolutions 13:45:45 ... e.g. someone presenting with a higher resolution that I would need, with very few zooming options 13:46:12 ... on top of that, if you do zoom-in, I'm available to move into the screen and the presenters do that well, making it pretty difficult to control what you're seeing 13:46:25 judy: clearly another gap we should address 13:46:55 ... beyond these 2 aspects, are there other aspects wrt screen sharing? 13:47:12 wilco: these are the main things; there may be something about color theme (dark vs light) 13:47:40 judy: when I'm in a setting where I can't see a screen share, a real time dialog tends to make it less stressful / more productive 13:47:50 ... there are a category of items that are really tips for hosts 13:48:11 ... this may help in some settings (e.g. smaller ones) 13:48:25 ... not sure how to extrapolate to all settings 13:48:27 ... any thoughts you have on that? 13:48:38 wilco: I think having enough options to resize and navigate in the presenter screen 13:48:53 Scott: as a low vision user, I use a combination of high contrast theme, zooming 13:48:59 ... I've been in that situation several times 13:49:09 q? 13:49:11 ... color contrast is something we already recommend 13:49:42 ... there are some third-party tools that attempt to try to extract content from slide presentations with on-the-fly OCR 13:50:00 q+ 13:50:02 ... we've touched on that in the note, but we need to flesh it out 13:50:26 wilco: pausing the presenter screen would be another useful approach to consider 13:50:33 to add to wilco's point: individuals who are sensitive to motion can also get overwhelmed by scrolling when screensharing. Also, from a cognitive perspective, high contrast can be overwhelming, so control to customize can be helpful as well 13:50:45 Judy: making screen sharing accessibility in different type of settings - small settings vs bigger meetings 13:50:47 q+ 13:51:29 Judy: we're also thinking about hybrid meetings - we're looking for that as well 13:51:48 Charles: +1 to freezing on the client side to help zooming on a specific spot 13:52:16 ... for dial-in codes - would be great to include pausing and pin in the phone ot make it easier to log in 13:52:33 Daniel: thank you for a very interesting document, which will have quite an impact on the community 13:52:40 ack me 13:52:44 present+ 13:52:49 ... re chat for screen reader users, there is also braille users 13:53:20 ack dmontalvo 13:53:31 ... how much thoughts have you put into braille users? 13:53:38 judy: we haven't discussed that too much 13:53:57 ... are you asking for braille output in the chat function, or more broadly? 13:54:25 daniel: more broadly - what a platform could do is to use the standard screen reader conventions and then add the braille support 13:54:28 q- 13:54:42 (Often the shared screen contains mostly text. Maybe it would help if the videoconf systems were able to share such a screen in the form of HTML instead of as an image.) 13:54:46 q- 13:55:30 RRSAgent, draft minutes 13:55:30 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/19-remotemeet-minutes.html dom 13:55:48 scribe+ 13:55:53 judy: closing comments? 13:56:12 ... contact me by email ^^ 13:56:22 scott: or scott@hollier.info 13:56:28 Thanks everyone for a great presentation! 13:56:32 Thank you! 13:56:38 Have a great conference everybody! 13:56:44 That was excellent, thank you! 13:56:46 RRSAgent, make minutes 13:56:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/19-remotemeet-minutes.html Bert 13:56:57 KimD has left #remotemeet 13:57:24 janina has left #remotemeet 13:58:04 s/by email ^^/by email: jbrewer@w3.org/ 13:58:06 RRSAgent, make minutes 13:58:06 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/19-remotemeet-minutes.html Bert 13:58:20 CharlesL has left #remotemeet 14:00:53 Roy has left #remotemeet 14:01:29 jasonjgw has left #remotemeet 16:13:14 Zakim has left #remotemeet 16:38:26 Francis_Storr_ has joined #remotemeet 18:16:34 Bert has left #remotemeet 19:24:17 Francis_Storr has joined #remotemeet 22:59:03 jeff has joined #remotemeet