IRC log of personalization on 2021-10-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/10/18-personalization-irc
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RRSAgent, stay
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RRSAgent, make log public
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12:58:33 [Matthew_Atkinson]
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13:00:39 [Matthew_Atkinson]
Hi all. Just thought I would pop in here in case anyone in the task force has any questions or access issues relating to our session in an hour.
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13:44:10 [janina]
agenda?
13:44:24 [janina]
zakim, clear agenda
13:44:24 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
13:44:44 [janina]
Meeting: APA Personalization Breakout at TPAC 2021
13:44:53 [janina]
Date: 18 Oct 2021
13:45:02 [janina]
Chair: Lionel_Wolberger
13:45:16 [janina]
rrsagent, make log public
13:45:31 [janina]
scribe: janina
13:47:04 [LouisMaher]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:47:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/18-personalization-minutes.html LouisMaher
13:47:54 [janina]
topic: Personalizing the Web for Better Accessibility
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13:56:58 [janina]
https://zoom.us/j/93772414296?pwd=b3dEazBsV0gzK3grQmtwTXRYMDlhdz09
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13:58:09 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Hi all, excited to do the TPAC session
13:58:19 [CharlesL]
present+
13:58:34 [becky]
present+
13:58:35 [MURATA]
present+
13:58:37 [Matthew_Atkinson]
present+
13:58:37 [Lionel_Wolberger]
prsent+
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13:58:56 [LouisMaher]
present+
13:59:00 [SamK]
present+
13:59:10 [wendyreid]
present+
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13:59:23 [takio]
present+ Takio_Yamaoka
13:59:31 [Joshue108]
present+
13:59:31 [Matthew_Atkinson]
Temporary link for slides: https://raw.githack.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/tpac-2021-talk/talks/2021/tpac/index.html?full#29
13:59:37 [Joshue108]
zakim, agenda?
13:59:37 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
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14:00:33 [PaulG]
present+
14:00:46 [JustineP]
present+
14:01:37 [jeff_]
present+
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14:01:51 [JF]
Present+
14:01:58 [Jennie_]
present+
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14:02:43 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: Starts presentation of slides ...
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14:03:05 [janina]
Lionel_Wolberger: Introduces himself as Co-Facilitator
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14:04:20 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: Presentation will be about 20 min, will take brief questions during; but please hold on major points
14:04:33 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: We want to support the next billion web users
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Matthew_Atkinson: A small range of author added data will help do that
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14:05:11 [Louay]
Present+ Louay_Bassbouss
14:05:29 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: So, who are these billion users? People with cognitive or learning disabilities; people in crises for some reason, perhaps a migrane?; users of AAC
14:05:57 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: reviews content in his slides
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14:07:21 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:07:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/18-personalization-minutes.html janina
14:07:49 [shadi]
present+
14:07:50 [MasakazuKitahara]
present+
14:07:55 [nigel]
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14:07:59 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: considers activities that personalization spec supports
14:08:49 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: shows webpage with 4 save buttons --- who benefits from which? How to keep things user specific?
14:08:56 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: is better semantics
14:09:02 [nigel]
Present+ Nigel_Megitt
14:09:38 [rmm]
I wouldn't have recognised the thumb drive icon as save - I would have assumed that meant to upload files.
14:09:38 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Content useable: https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/
14:09:55 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: Notes Content Usable and WCAG focus on creating content; we provide a technology to personalize for what the user needs and drop the rest
14:10:47 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: Shows example of a simplified page--implementing author provided additional semantics
14:10:52 [Joshue108]
q?
14:11:35 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: We want to support element level semantics
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rrsagent, make minutes
14:11:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/18-personalization-minutes.html janina
14:12:20 [Sheri_B-H]
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14:12:24 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: reviews status of our several modules
14:12:46 [Sheri_B-H]
q+
14:12:51 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: Content Module--Module 1 currently in wide pre-CR wide review
14:13:44 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: our aim is a little ml to support most users who might benefit
14:14:24 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lionel says to Sheri: We saw you speaking, but could not hear you.
14:14:26 [Sheri_B-H]
The thing that drives me crazy about the current approach to personalization is I can flag myself as low vision, or I can flag myself as motion sensitive, but I can't flag myself as both.
14:14:27 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: notes our attributes are complimentary
14:14:45 [Sheri_B-H]
apologies for the bad connection, it rained in California so of course everything breaks :-)
14:14:49 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: Reviews Content Module specification
14:15:15 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: Authors indicate what might be most important on their page
14:15:53 [JF]
@Sheri - can you expand on that more? We don't have a 'flagging' mechanism, so where are you doing that flagging?
14:16:10 [Sheri_B-H]
Using current overlays
14:16:11 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: shows how this drives simplification under user display
14:16:29 [Sheri_B-H]
I just want to make sure that it will be possible to have multiple disabilities accommodated for the sale experience
14:16:31 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: when the user asks for it
14:16:38 [Sheri_B-H]
same*
14:16:51 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: shows code behind the example
14:17:14 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lionel answering Sheri: This is a proposed HTML markup, applied by authors. The user-agent shall interpret that markup. So no requirement for an overlay.
14:17:19 [JF]
@sheri Ha! That is an implementation issue. We're providing mechanisms for users to take advantage of, we're leaving implementation to the tools
14:17:26 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lionel asks Sheri, did that anwer?
14:17:49 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: looks at "purpose" attribute
14:18:35 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: notes we're repurposing available established auto completions
14:19:12 [Sheri_B-H]
partially - will the markup allow items to be marked to be interpreted by the tool for multiple (and possibly conflicting) states?
14:19:20 [Sheri_B-H]
example - something is moving, but it is critical information
14:19:30 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: shows how this can be represented using user preferred AAC symbol sets
14:19:53 [Lionel_Wolberger]
@sheri - these are applied on an element level. So it should encompass all the states of the element.
14:20:11 [Lionel_Wolberger]
@sheri, similarly it is open to javascript manipulation like any other HTML tag on the page.
14:20:42 [Lionel_Wolberger]
@sheri I am happy to give you a walk-through if you wish, and clarify these points
14:21:51 [Joshue108]
q?
14:22:10 [Joshue108]
ack Sher
14:22:15 [JF]
Q+
14:22:37 [janina]
q?
14:22:53 [rmm]
q+ Have any of the user agents (browser makers) shown interest in being likely to support these things?
14:23:18 [Sheri_B-H]
I'm good
14:24:51 [becky]
q?
14:25:41 [janina]
rmm: asked about browser implementation?
14:26:11 [janina]
Lionel_Wolberger: Answered about content examples coming, incl U.S. Access Board; and now working on the browser side of things
14:26:40 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: Shows some detail of AAC
14:27:06 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: Key point, people who use AAC, use the symbol set they learned. There are many, and they aren't mutually intelligible
14:27:41 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: We're using an index of concepts, actively maintained, to auto transliterate to the user's preferred AAC
14:28:09 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: attribute value is just a numeric from the mapping index
14:28:26 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: that's what enables a user to get the symbol set they know
14:28:43 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: shows distraction control
14:29:05 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: example is an embedded stock ticker
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14:30:05 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: notes the need for implementations to match our content development that will provide experience to get the work through CR and beyond
14:30:56 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: concludes slides with invitation to participate moving forward
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14:31:42 [Joshue108]
q?
14:31:57 [janina]
Lionel_Wolberger: suggests implementations are relatively painless!
14:32:26 [nigel]
q+ to ask what the privacy implications are
14:32:39 [Joshue108]
q+ Janina
14:32:52 [Joshue108]
ack nigel
14:32:52 [Zakim]
nigel, you wanted to ask what the privacy implications are
14:33:02 [JF]
Q+ to respond to Nigel
14:33:04 [janina]
nigel: Asks about privacy considerations?
14:33:39 [janina]
nigel: Can the page know the user has invoked this technology?
14:34:11 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: Notes this is passive from the site--no mechanism for report from the user; unless a user agent implemented that way
14:34:33 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: But reporting upstream isn't required in any way for this to work
14:35:00 [janina]
nigel: concerned about javascript observing what happens for the user
14:35:28 [jamesn]
+1 nigel
14:35:33 [janina]
nigel: suggests we consider implications
14:36:24 [janina]
jf: suggests we're sticking to basic html model; so phps a ua might do something; but we are following usual practice here
14:36:53 [janina]
jf: suggests it would be a ua approach, phps cookies
14:37:45 [janina]
lisa: Mentions have also protyped extension mechanism on user equipment
14:38:19 [Matthew_Atkinson]
q+
14:38:25 [janina]
lisa: agrees user privacy is an important concern
14:38:37 [janina]
lionel: asks focus of nigel's concern
14:39:06 [janina]
nigel: believes it could be yet another vector for discovering data about users
14:40:11 [janina]
lisa: agrees with concern about abuse
14:42:04 [janina]
jamesn: Notes issue has come up in ARIA; also not a two way communication; but it hasn't been much of an issue
14:42:34 [janina]
jamesn: suggests the privacy horizontal review would be helpful
14:42:49 [janina]
Lionel_Wolberger: will take as an action
14:43:20 [janina]
Lionel_Wolberger: compares to user zooming
14:43:28 [Joshue108]
q?
14:44:22 [janina]
Lionel_Wolberger: suggests dom won't now presentation changed
14:44:58 [Joshue108]
JS: We need horizontal review before we go past CR..
14:45:06 [LisaSeemanKest]
we did have a security review (I think)
14:45:16 [Joshue108]
But I want to suggest our experience working on trial implementations, we have learned things
14:45:34 [becky]
ack Janina
14:45:37 [nigel]
Unless specific steps are taken in the specs, the DOM will certainly change when presentation changes. That's the way a client library has to work, and if it changes, then other code can observe that.
14:45:40 [Joshue108]
An interactive page, a la Access Board for example, seems like a good place to imlement
14:45:49 [Joshue108]
s/imlement/implement
14:46:01 [Lionel_Wolberger]
q?
14:46:04 [Joshue108]
ack JF
14:46:04 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to respond to Nigel
14:46:10 [janina]
janina: suggests early implementation with U.S. Access Board suggests interactive page is a good place
14:46:25 [janina]
s/place/place to start trialing page markup/
14:46:42 [janina]
jf: talks about how a third party service provider could help mediate
14:46:49 [janina]
jf: a proxy server
14:47:17 [janina]
jf: so an authenticated proxy process might help ameliorate privacy/security
14:47:59 [Joshue108]
ack mat
14:48:32 [janina]
nigel: if a site is monitoring for changes to dom, it's theoretically possible
14:49:10 [nigel]
s/nigel/Matthew_Atkinson
14:49:33 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lionel notes- people are concerned about changes to the DOM. I don't think rendering based on Personalization 1.0 markup would require such changes, in a mature implementation.
14:49:43 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: agrees we will pursue expressed concerns
14:49:57 [janina]
jf: agrees and requests more feedback and suggestions
14:50:14 [janina]
Matthew_Atkinson: asks any more questions?
14:50:26 [Joshue108]
q?
14:50:48 [jamesn]
https://w3ctag.github.io/design-principles/#do-not-expose-use-of-assistive-tech is the relevant TAG design principle
14:51:21 [Jennie_]
Very excited! Looking forward to reviewing options for joining a proof of concept.
14:51:23 [janina]
Lionel_Wolberger: Asks reactions?
14:51:41 [janina]
Becky notes comment in Zoom
14:51:52 [tzviya]
q+
14:52:07 [nigel]
q+ to say this kind of thing is surely what the potential of the web should enable
14:52:09 [Joshue108]
ack tzviya
14:52:50 [rmm]
I am excited by the possibilities of this and can try and use my influence to get some UK government implementations.
14:53:17 [janina]
tzviya: asks about whether it would clash with ARIA; could be a heavy authoring task if there are clashes
14:53:25 [JF]
Q+ to also address that question (authoring lift)
14:53:49 [Lionel_Wolberger]
@jf note that Judy has raised her hand
14:54:01 [janina]
lisa: Notes originally intended for ARIA;
14:54:39 [Joshue108]
ack nigel
14:54:39 [Zakim]
nigel, you wanted to say this kind of thing is surely what the potential of the web should enable
14:54:49 [Lionel_Wolberger]
Lionel: follow-up and see if there is a table that maps our changes to ARIA
14:54:58 [janina]
nigel: definitely a tech we need to find a way to do
14:55:00 [janina]
q+
14:55:15 [Joshue108]
ack JF
14:55:16 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to also address that question (authoring lift)
14:55:58 [janina]
jf: Recalls San Fran TPAC; had had conversation of incorporating in wysiwyg editors
14:57:01 [Joshue108]
ack jan
14:57:32 [Joshue108]
JS: I want to ack Tzviyas point
14:58:10 [Joshue108]
APA want to introduce this - and when we meet next Thurs, to look at APA's review of EPUB spec - we think this is relevant
15:00:30 [Joshue108]
here is clipboard from ZOOM:
15:00:30 [Joshue108]
From Lionel Wolberger to Everyone: 03:09 PM
15:00:30 [Joshue108]
Content Useable:
15:00:30 [Joshue108]
https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/
15:00:30 [Joshue108]
From Aimée Ubbink to Everyone: 03:29 PM
15:00:30 [Joshue108]
Thank you very much, very informative.
15:00:31 [Joshue108]
From Richard Morton - CDDO - Cabinet Office - UK to Everyone: 03:32 PM
15:00:31 [Joshue108]
This looks really useful - thanks for clear and simple explanations
15:00:31 [Joshue108]
From E.A. Draffan to Everyone: 03:50 PM
15:00:31 [Joshue108]
Thank you very much for the very interesting discussion. Looking forward to helping with AAC symbols
15:00:32 [Joshue108]
From Kim Patch to Everyone: 03:51 PM
15:00:32 [Joshue108]
Thank you very much – very informative, thought-provoking, and exciting
15:00:32 [Joshue108]
From E.A. Draffan to Everyone: 03:51 PM
15:00:32 [Joshue108]
No funding sadly!!
15:00:32 [Joshue108]
From Judy to Everyone: 03:51 PM
15:00:33 [Joshue108]
Great discussion, and thank you for the work! - Judy
15:00:33 [Joshue108]
From Lionel Wolberger to Everyone: 03:54 PM
15:00:33 [Joshue108]
Judy’s hand is raised
15:00:33 [Joshue108]
From Judy to Everyone: 03:56 PM
15:00:33 [Joshue108]
community.
15:00:44 [janina]
lisa: recalls ediscussions with DAISY in earlier discussions of this approach
15:01:07 [JF]
bye all
15:01:21 [becky]
thanks for scribing, Janina!!
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15:07:24 [janina]
zakim, bye
15:07:24 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been CharlesL, sharon, mike_beganyi, Matthew_Atkinson, Lionel_Wolberger_, Roy, becky, janina, MURATA, LouisMaher, SamK, wendyreid,
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... Takio_Yamaoka, Joshue, PaulG, JustineP, jeff_, JF, Jennie_, Louay_Bassbouss, shadi, MasakazuKitahara, Nigel_Megitt
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/18-personalization-minutes.html janina
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