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13:00:39 <Matthew_Atkinson> Hi all. Just thought I would pop in here in case anyone in the task force has any questions or access issues relating to our session in an hour.
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13:44:10 <janina> agenda?
13:44:24 <janina> zakim, clear agenda
13:44:24 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:44:44 <janina> Meeting: APA Personalization Breakout at TPAC 2021
13:44:53 <janina> Date: 18 Oct 2021
13:45:02 <janina> Chair: Lionel_Wolberger
13:45:16 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
13:45:31 <janina> scribe: janina
13:47:04 <LouisMaher> rrsagent, make minutes
13:47:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/18-personalization-minutes.html LouisMaher
13:47:54 <janina> topic: Personalizing the Web for Better Accessibility
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13:56:58 <janina> https://zoom.us/j/93772414296?pwd=b3dEazBsV0gzK3grQmtwTXRYMDlhdz09
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13:58:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> Hi all, excited to do the TPAC session
13:58:19 <CharlesL> present+
13:58:34 <becky> present+
13:58:35 <MURATA> present+
13:58:37 <Matthew_Atkinson> present+
13:58:37 <Lionel_Wolberger> prsent+
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13:58:56 <LouisMaher> present+
13:59:00 <SamK> present+
13:59:10 <wendyreid> present+
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13:59:23 <takio> present+ Takio_Yamaoka
13:59:31 <Joshue108> present+
13:59:31 <Matthew_Atkinson> Temporary link for slides: https://raw.githack.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/tpac-2021-talk/talks/2021/tpac/index.html?full#29
13:59:37 <Joshue108> zakim, agenda?
13:59:37 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
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14:00:33 <PaulG> present+
14:00:46 <JustineP> present+
14:01:37 <jeff_> present+
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14:01:51 <JF> Present+
14:01:58 <Jennie_> present+
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14:02:43 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: Starts presentation of slides ...
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14:03:05 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Introduces himself as Co-Facilitator
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14:04:20 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: Presentation will be about 20 min, will take brief questions during; but please hold on major points
14:04:33 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: We want to support the next billion web users
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14:04:47 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: A small range of author added data will help do that
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14:05:11 <Louay> Present+ Louay_Bassbouss
14:05:29 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: So, who are these billion users? People with cognitive or learning disabilities; people in crises for some reason, perhaps a migrane?; users of AAC
14:05:57 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: reviews content in his slides
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14:07:21 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
14:07:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/18-personalization-minutes.html janina
14:07:49 <shadi> present+
14:07:50 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
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14:07:59 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: considers activities that personalization spec supports
14:08:49 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: shows webpage with 4 save buttons --- who benefits from which? How to keep things user specific?
14:08:56 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: is better semantics
14:09:02 <nigel> Present+ Nigel_Megitt
14:09:38 <rmm> I wouldn't have recognised the thumb drive icon as save - I would have assumed that meant to upload files.
14:09:38 <Lionel_Wolberger> Content useable: https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/
14:09:55 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: Notes Content Usable and WCAG focus on creating content; we provide a technology to personalize for what the user needs and drop the rest
14:10:47 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: Shows example of a simplified page--implementing author provided additional semantics
14:10:52 <Joshue108> q?
14:11:35 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: We want to support element level semantics
14:11:58 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
14:11:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/18-personalization-minutes.html janina
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14:12:24 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: reviews status of our several modules
14:12:46 <Sheri_B-H> q+
14:12:51 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: Content Module--Module 1 currently in wide pre-CR wide review
14:13:44 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: our aim is a little ml to support most users who might benefit
14:14:24 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel says to Sheri: We saw you speaking, but could not hear you.
14:14:26 <Sheri_B-H> The thing that drives me crazy about the current approach to personalization is I can flag myself as low vision, or I can flag myself as motion sensitive, but I can't flag myself as both.
14:14:27 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: notes our attributes are complimentary
14:14:45 <Sheri_B-H> apologies for the bad connection, it rained in California so of course everything breaks :-)
14:14:49 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: Reviews Content Module specification
14:15:15 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: Authors indicate what might be most important on their page
14:15:53 <JF> @Sheri - can you expand on that more? We don't have a 'flagging' mechanism, so where are you doing that flagging?
14:16:10 <Sheri_B-H> Using current overlays
14:16:11 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: shows how this drives simplification under user display
14:16:29 <Sheri_B-H> I just want to make sure that it will be possible to have multiple disabilities accommodated for the sale experience
14:16:31 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: when the user asks for it
14:16:38 <Sheri_B-H> same*
14:16:51 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: shows code behind the example
14:17:14 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel answering Sheri: This is a proposed HTML markup, applied by authors. The user-agent shall interpret that markup. So no requirement for an overlay.
14:17:19 <JF> @sheri Ha! That is an implementation issue. We're providing mechanisms for users to take advantage of, we're leaving implementation to the tools
14:17:26 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel asks Sheri, did that anwer?
14:17:49 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: looks at "purpose" attribute
14:18:35 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: notes we're repurposing available established auto completions
14:19:12 <Sheri_B-H> partially - will the markup allow items to be marked to be interpreted by the tool for multiple (and possibly conflicting) states?
14:19:20 <Sheri_B-H> example - something is moving, but it is critical information
14:19:30 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: shows how this can be represented using user preferred AAC symbol sets
14:19:53 <Lionel_Wolberger> @sheri - these are applied on an element level. So it should encompass all the states of the element.
14:20:11 <Lionel_Wolberger> @sheri, similarly it is open to javascript manipulation like any other HTML tag on the page.
14:20:42 <Lionel_Wolberger> @sheri I am happy to give you a walk-through if you wish, and clarify these points
14:21:51 <Joshue108> q?
14:22:10 <Joshue108> ack Sher
14:22:15 <JF> Q+
14:22:37 <janina> q?
14:22:53 <rmm> q+ Have any of the user agents (browser makers) shown interest in being likely to support these things?
14:23:18 <Sheri_B-H> I'm good
14:24:51 <becky> q?
14:25:41 <janina> rmm: asked about browser implementation?
14:26:11 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Answered about content examples coming, incl U.S. Access Board; and now working on the browser side of things
14:26:40 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: Shows some detail of AAC
14:27:06 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: Key point, people who use AAC, use the symbol set they learned. There are many, and they aren't mutually intelligible
14:27:41 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: We're using an index of concepts, actively maintained, to auto transliterate to the user's preferred AAC
14:28:09 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: attribute value is just a numeric from the mapping index
14:28:26 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: that's what enables a user to get the symbol set they know
14:28:43 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: shows distraction control
14:29:05 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: example is an embedded stock ticker
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14:30:05 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: notes the need for implementations to match our content development that will provide experience to get the work through CR and beyond
14:30:56 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: concludes slides with invitation to participate moving forward
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14:31:42 <Joshue108> q?
14:31:57 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: suggests implementations are relatively painless!
14:32:26 <nigel> q+ to ask what the privacy implications are
14:32:39 <Joshue108> q+ Janina
14:32:52 <Joshue108> ack nigel
14:32:52 <Zakim> nigel, you wanted to ask what the privacy implications are
14:33:02 <JF> Q+ to respond to Nigel
14:33:04 <janina> nigel: Asks about privacy considerations?
14:33:39 <janina> nigel: Can the page know the user has invoked this technology?
14:34:11 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: Notes this is passive from the site--no mechanism for report from the user; unless a user agent implemented that way
14:34:33 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: But reporting upstream isn't required in any way for this to work
14:35:00 <janina> nigel: concerned about javascript observing what happens for the user
14:35:28 <jamesn> +1 nigel
14:35:33 <janina> nigel: suggests we consider implications
14:36:24 <janina> jf: suggests we're sticking to basic html model; so phps a ua might do something; but we are following usual practice here
14:36:53 <janina> jf: suggests it would be a ua approach, phps cookies
14:37:45 <janina> lisa: Mentions have also protyped extension mechanism on user equipment
14:38:19 <Matthew_Atkinson> q+
14:38:25 <janina> lisa: agrees user privacy is an important concern
14:38:37 <janina> lionel: asks focus of nigel's concern
14:39:06 <janina> nigel: believes it could be yet another vector for discovering data about users
14:40:11 <janina> lisa: agrees with concern about abuse
14:42:04 <janina> jamesn: Notes issue has come up in ARIA; also not a two way communication; but it hasn't been much of an issue
14:42:34 <janina> jamesn: suggests the privacy horizontal review would be helpful
14:42:49 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: will take as an action
14:43:20 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: compares to user zooming
14:43:28 <Joshue108> q?
14:44:22 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: suggests dom won't now presentation changed
14:44:58 <Joshue108> JS: We need horizontal review before we go past CR..
14:45:06 <LisaSeemanKest> we did have a security review (I think)
14:45:16 <Joshue108> But I want to suggest our experience working on trial implementations, we have learned things
14:45:34 <becky> ack Janina
14:45:37 <nigel> Unless specific steps are taken in the specs, the DOM will certainly change when presentation changes. That's the way a client library has to work, and if it changes, then other code can observe that.
14:45:40 <Joshue108> An interactive page, a la Access Board for example, seems like a good place to imlement
14:45:49 <Joshue108> s/imlement/implement
14:46:01 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
14:46:04 <Joshue108> ack JF
14:46:04 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to respond to Nigel
14:46:10 <janina> janina: suggests early implementation with U.S. Access Board suggests interactive page is a good place
14:46:25 <janina> s/place/place to start trialing page markup/
14:46:42 <janina> jf: talks about how a third party service provider could help mediate
14:46:49 <janina> jf: a proxy server
14:47:17 <janina> jf: so an authenticated proxy process might help ameliorate privacy/security
14:47:59 <Joshue108> ack mat
14:48:32 <janina> nigel: if a site is monitoring for changes to dom, it's theoretically possible
14:49:10 <nigel> s/nigel/Matthew_Atkinson
14:49:33 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel notes- people are concerned about changes to the DOM. I don't think rendering based on Personalization 1.0 markup would require such changes, in a mature implementation.
14:49:43 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: agrees we will pursue expressed concerns
14:49:57 <janina> jf: agrees and requests more feedback and suggestions
14:50:14 <janina> Matthew_Atkinson: asks any more questions?
14:50:26 <Joshue108> q?
14:50:48 <jamesn> https://w3ctag.github.io/design-principles/#do-not-expose-use-of-assistive-tech is the relevant TAG design principle
14:51:21 <Jennie_> Very excited! Looking forward to reviewing options for joining a proof of concept.
14:51:23 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Asks reactions?
14:51:41 <janina> Becky notes comment in Zoom
14:51:52 <tzviya> q+
14:52:07 <nigel> q+ to say this kind of thing is surely what the potential of the web should enable
14:52:09 <Joshue108> ack tzviya
14:52:50 <rmm> I am excited by the possibilities of this and can try and use my influence to get some UK government implementations.
14:53:17 <janina> tzviya: asks about whether it would clash with ARIA; could be a heavy authoring task if there are clashes
14:53:25 <JF> Q+ to also address that question (authoring lift)
14:53:49 <Lionel_Wolberger> @jf note that Judy has raised her hand
14:54:01 <janina> lisa: Notes originally intended for ARIA;
14:54:39 <Joshue108> ack nigel
14:54:39 <Zakim> nigel, you wanted to say this kind of thing is surely what the potential of the web should enable
14:54:49 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel: follow-up and see if there is a table that maps our changes to ARIA
14:54:58 <janina> nigel: definitely a tech we need to find a way to do
14:55:00 <janina> q+
14:55:15 <Joshue108> ack JF
14:55:16 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to also address that question (authoring lift)
14:55:58 <janina> jf: Recalls San Fran TPAC; had had conversation of incorporating in wysiwyg editors
14:57:01 <Joshue108> ack jan
14:57:32 <Joshue108> JS: I want to ack Tzviyas point
14:58:10 <Joshue108> APA want to introduce this - and when we meet next Thurs, to look at APA's review of EPUB spec - we think this is relevant
15:00:30 <Joshue108> here is clipboard from ZOOM:
15:00:30 <Joshue108> From Lionel Wolberger to Everyone:  03:09 PM
15:00:30 <Joshue108> Content Useable:
15:00:30 <Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/
15:00:30 <Joshue108> From Aimée Ubbink to Everyone:  03:29 PM
15:00:30 <Joshue108> Thank you very much, very informative.
15:00:31 <Joshue108> From Richard Morton - CDDO - Cabinet Office - UK to Everyone:  03:32 PM
15:00:31 <Joshue108> This looks really useful - thanks for clear and simple explanations
15:00:31 <Joshue108> From E.A. Draffan to Everyone:  03:50 PM
15:00:31 <Joshue108> Thank you very much for the very interesting discussion.  Looking forward to helping with AAC symbols
15:00:32 <Joshue108> From Kim Patch to Everyone:  03:51 PM
15:00:32 <Joshue108> Thank you very much – very informative, thought-provoking, and exciting
15:00:32 <Joshue108> From E.A. Draffan to Everyone:  03:51 PM
15:00:32 <Joshue108> No funding sadly!!
15:00:32 <Joshue108> From Judy to Everyone:  03:51 PM
15:00:33 <Joshue108> Great discussion, and thank you for the work! - Judy
15:00:33 <Joshue108> From Lionel Wolberger to Everyone:  03:54 PM
15:00:33 <Joshue108> Judy’s hand is raised
15:00:33 <Joshue108> From Judy to Everyone:  03:56 PM
15:00:33 <Joshue108> community.
15:00:44 <janina> lisa: recalls ediscussions with DAISY in earlier discussions of this approach
15:01:07 <JF> bye all
15:01:21 <becky> thanks for scribing, Janina!!
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15:07:24 <janina> zakim, bye
15:07:24 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been CharlesL, sharon, mike_beganyi, Matthew_Atkinson, Lionel_Wolberger_, Roy, becky, janina, MURATA, LouisMaher, SamK, wendyreid,
15:07:24 <Zakim> Zakim has left #personalization
15:07:28 <Zakim> ... Takio_Yamaoka, Joshue, PaulG, JustineP, jeff_, JF, Jennie_, Louay_Bassbouss, shadi, MasakazuKitahara, Nigel_Megitt
15:07:36 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
15:07:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/18-personalization-minutes.html janina
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