13:38:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #silver
13:38:49 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/10/15-silver-irc
13:38:52 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:38:52 <Zakim> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
13:39:02 <jeanne> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
13:39:02 <jeanne> present:
13:39:02 <jeanne> chair: jeanne
13:39:02 <jeanne> present+
13:39:03 <jeanne> zakim, clear agenda
13:39:03 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
13:39:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/15-silver-minutes.html jeanne
13:39:05 <jeanne> q?
13:39:05 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:39:09 <jeanne> regrets+ Shawn
13:40:12 <jeanne> regrets+ Azlan, Bruce
13:40:40 <jeanne> regrets+ Wilco, Todd
13:41:56 <jeanne> agenda+ Cancel meeting of October 22 because of TPAC presentation?
13:41:56 <jeanne> agenda+ Register for TPAC (may take 24 hours) and suggested Breakouts
13:41:56 <jeanne> agenda+ Review of WCAG3 Schedule
13:41:56 <jeanne> agenda+ Defining Conformance
13:42:20 <jeanne> agenda+ to remind to comment on the WCAG3 process email thread
13:42:41 <jeanne> agenda order is 5,1,2,3,4
13:59:42 <JF> JF has joined #silver
13:59:44 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #silver
13:59:50 <JF> Present+
14:00:06 <JakeAbma_> JakeAbma_ has joined #silver
14:01:33 <Makoto> present+
14:01:53 <JakeAbma_> present+
14:02:02 <sarahhorton> sarahhorton has joined #silver
14:02:08 <Chuck_> Chuck_ has joined #silver
14:02:10 <Chuck_> agenda?
14:04:17 <jeanne> zakim, take up item 1
14:04:17 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Cancel meeting of October 22 because of TPAC presentation? -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:04:17 <sarahhorton> scribe: sarahhorton
14:04:33 <Chuck_> +1
14:04:52 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Cancel next week because Maturity Model presenting breakout, would like Silver people to attend
14:05:18 <sarahhorton> ... okay? Meet anyway? Shawn and Jeanne could split up to run both if needed
14:05:32 <Rachael> +1 to canceling
14:05:39 <jenniferS_> jenniferS_ has joined #silver
14:05:59 <sarahhorton> Janina: epub meeting
14:06:23 <sarahhorton> ... TPAC should be TPAC, lots of accessibility stuff, should take advantage
14:06:28 <Chuck_> proposed RESOLUTION:  Silver meeting on October 22 is canceled
14:06:47 <sarahhorton> RESOLUTION:  Silver meeting on October 22 is canceled
14:06:59 <jeanne> zakim, take up  next
14:06:59 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- to remind to comment on the WCAG3 process email thread -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:07:04 <sajkaj> sajkaj has joined #silver
14:07:07 <sarahhorton> jeanne:
14:07:07 <sajkaj> present+
14:07:14 <Chuck_> present+
14:07:27 <sarahhorton> ... email thread about WCAG3 process proposal
14:07:32 <Rachael> present+
14:07:44 <sarahhorton> ... participate as able, send email with thoughts on proposal
14:08:15 <sarahhorton> Rachael: Conversation of process on email, recognize not everyone can follow, will finalize proposal and put out for survey
14:08:39 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
14:08:39 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Register for TPAC (may take 24 hours) and suggested Breakouts -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:09:06 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Register, may take up to 24 hours to get code to register for meetings, do in advance
14:09:34 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/register/tpac2021virtual
14:09:54 <jeanne>  * Accessibility & CSS - 20 October 12:00 pm
14:09:54 <jeanne>   * How to work with COGA - 20 October 8:00pm ET
14:09:54 <jeanne>   * Accessibility for Children - 21 October 10:00 am ET
14:09:54 <jeanne>   * COGA  Content Usable: user needs to specifications - 21 October 11:00 ET
14:09:55 <jeanne>   * WCAG Maturity Model - 22 October 10:00 am ET
14:09:55 <jeanne>   * Others?
14:09:58 <sarahhorton> ... list in email of interesting breakout sessions
14:10:15 <jeanne> https://web-eur.cvent.com/event/2b77fe3d-2536-467d-b71b-969b2e6419b5/websitePage:efc4b117-4ea4-4be5-97b4-c521ce3a06db
14:10:20 <sarahhorton> ... agenda page, look at it
14:10:33 <sarahhorton> ... can set own timezone on page
14:11:01 <sarahhorton> ... shared interesting ones in email and above
14:11:51 <sarahhorton> ... others of interest?
14:12:47 <sarahhorton> sajkaj: APA personalization, outgrowth of COGA, simplify, allow additional semantic, known symbol set, looking forward to exploring annotation, nexus
14:12:52 <jeanne> Personalization at Monday at 10:00
14:13:08 <sajkaj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2021
14:13:10 <sarahhorton> ... CSS and APA will be specific agenda
14:13:51 <sarahhorton> ... joint meeting, week 1 only breakouts but this one is joint meeting
14:13:58 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
14:13:58 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Review of WCAG3 Schedule -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:14:10 <jenniferS_> present+
14:14:28 <sarahhorton> Rachael: shares screen
14:15:37 <jeanne> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SW5yZ_-7U2Umw9_4sgq0YOKVYhaYhZrmCDc5q8PQMPU/
14:16:19 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Created by chairs based on input from different meetings, analysis of different steps needed to get WCAG 3 completed in timely manner
14:16:54 <sarahhorton> Rachael: Not final draft, will share accessible final draft, apologize not prepped to be accessible, in process
14:17:16 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Go to estimate tab
14:17:52 <sarahhorton> Rachael: Shared scheduled at joint meeting few weeks ago, took points from minutes, went through issues mapped to conversation points in doc
14:18:14 <sarahhorton> ... putting in estimates from leadership about numbers, dependencies
14:18:26 <sarahhorton> ... review key pieces, parts missing?
14:19:05 <sarahhorton> ... walk through pieces so can understand final version
14:19:45 <sarahhorton> ... first column is tasks, setting up foundational work, subgroups of different levels of formality, pieces of work people are preparing for larger group
14:20:15 <sarahhorton> ... then meetings, pieces need to be discussed, e.g., scoring, measurement, usability testing
14:20:44 <sarahhorton> ... then foundational work, to have deep conversations, come to consensus, develop details
14:20:57 <sarahhorton> ... next section, comments and review
14:21:14 <sarahhorton> ... would end up being around 20 years, overlapping pieces
14:21:18 <JF> Q+ to speak to the conformance schedule
14:21:30 <sarahhorton> ... asking for participation in subgroups
14:21:38 <sarahhorton> ... then wrap-up and publication
14:22:04 <sarahhorton> ... focus on set-up foundational work, scoring, deliverable list
14:22:06 <jeanne> q+ to talk about the content creation pause - many subgroups may not have heard that
14:22:12 <sarahhorton> ... look for issues you're following
14:23:02 <sarahhorton> JF: Scoring section, noting, don't see protocols, group meeting, scoring came up, critical errors, etc, would like to see prototocls
14:23:25 <sarahhorton> Rachael: Put in foundational, can put in scoring, too, expect overlaps
14:23:42 <sarahhorton> JF: Did come up as being significant part, scoring
14:23:53 <jeanne> ack JF
14:23:53 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to speak to the conformance schedule
14:23:57 <jeanne> ack jeanne
14:23:57 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to talk about the content creation pause - many subgroups may not have heard that
14:24:34 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Mentioned content creation on pause, haven't talked about before, decision that's up to each subgroup
14:24:56 <sarahhorton> ... clear language meetings, working on testability
14:25:10 <Rachael> q+
14:25:11 <JF> Q= to note that sub-groups come back with *proposals* and not decisions
14:25:19 <sarahhorton> ... every group that chooses to keep working, will be changes, esp to scoring
14:25:30 <JF> Q+ to note that sub-groups come back with *proposals* and not decisions
14:25:55 <sarahhorton> Rachael: Joint group is pausing looking at content and focusing at conformance now
14:26:06 <sarahhorton> ... subgroups are continuing
14:26:20 <JF> ack me
14:26:20 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to note that sub-groups come back with *proposals* and not decisions
14:26:28 <Rachael> ack Rachael
14:26:39 <jeanne> ack jf
14:26:47 <sarahhorton> JF: Subgroups working on proposal, no consensus
14:26:59 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Make decisions in subgroup, not for entire group
14:27:42 <sarahhorton> Rachael: Final version will be different link, questions, trouble navigating, contact Rachael and will do whatever needed to get access to data
14:27:42 <jeanne> zakim, take up item
14:27:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up item', jeanne
14:27:52 <jeanne> zakim, take up nexxt
14:27:52 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up nexxt', jeanne
14:28:01 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
14:28:01 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Defining Conformance -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:28:39 <sajkaj> zakim, who's here?
14:28:39 <Zakim> Present: jeanne, JF, Makoto, JakeAbma_, sajkaj, Chuck_, Rachael, jenniferS_
14:28:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see sajkaj, jenniferS_, Chuck_, sarahhorton, JakeAbma_, Makoto, JF, RRSAgent, Zakim, jeanne, kirkwood, stevelee, Jemma, MichaelC, join_subline, tink, ChrisLoiselle,
14:28:42 <Zakim> ... Rachael, alastairc, Joshue108, dmontalvo, jcraig, AWK
14:28:53 <sarahhorton> jeanne: In schedule, highlighted text is new addition
14:29:15 <sarahhorton> ... what is part of definition of what is conformance, what should it look like
14:29:22 <jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SvEpixNEWtpJK1MbMMkLEGYXQoAjQLvVgkczCuJENjw/
14:29:39 <sarahhorton> ... most people should have edit rights, if not do have comment rights
14:29:59 <sarahhorton> ... goal, create proposal for defining conformance
14:30:15 <sajkaj> q+
14:30:49 <sarahhorton> ... what it is, why do we have it, Where are the lines between measurement, conformance, and regulation? Do secondary goals exist that a conformance secion is attempting to achieve? How is the WCAG conformance section used in the real world?
14:30:56 <Rachael> q+ to set expectations on deliverables for this work
14:31:02 <JF> Q+
14:31:07 <sarahhorton> sajkaj: Scoping big issue, have we added to do yet?
14:31:19 <sarahhorton> ... foundational
14:31:52 <sarahhorton> ... different expectations between how much to qualify how much is machine testable and what needs human testing
14:32:03 <jeanne> ack saj
14:32:19 <sarahhorton> ... permeable, maybe should not be in global conformance definition, but maybe by outcome / method
14:32:56 <sarahhorton> ... example, Obama's letter, on verge of OCR for handwriting, becomes achievable to require rather than rope off
14:33:48 <sarahhorton> Rachael: Scope goals, rather than solving, aiming for list of key challenges, conversation points, maybe recommendation but not final solution
14:34:08 <sarahhorton> jeanne: List of pros / cons for goals? What's deliverable
14:34:55 <sarahhorton> Rachael: Key conversation points that need to be agreed on, probably a decision that will result, rather than the decision, share the conversations and thinking behind it
14:35:32 <JF> Q?
14:35:33 <sajkaj> q+
14:35:38 <Rachael> q-
14:35:38 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Maybe start with goal questions, start discussing, capture answers
14:35:40 <Chuck_> q+
14:35:46 <jeanne> ack JF
14:36:30 <sarahhorton> JF: Conformance reporting, jump ahead, scoping and reporting scope, work on protocols and assertions, declarations
14:36:50 <sarahhorton> ... total package will include conformance report
14:37:05 <jeanne> ack saj
14:37:48 <sarahhorton> sajkaj: Kinds of reporting to discuss, testing results (machine/human), concepts (rights), attestation
14:37:50 <JF> +1 to Janina - attestation
14:38:35 <sarahhorton> ... expectations, let WCAG rope things off, don't have same expectations of users
14:39:03 <sarahhorton> ... details left to regulatory adjudication, provide guidance but don't do details, need that conversation
14:39:14 <Chuck_> ack Ch
14:39:15 <sarahhorton> ... comes after scope and details
14:40:01 <sarahhorton> jeanne: What is conformance, what are ideas people have, perspectives from members outside US
14:40:12 <sarahhorton> ... not putting on spot, open discussion
14:40:41 <sarahhorton> ... conformance is how do people know that they have met guidelines
14:40:48 <sajkaj> +1 to Jeanne
14:40:49 <Chuck_> q+
14:41:09 <sajkaj> q+
14:41:10 <sarahhorton> Chuck_: How does everyone know guidelines have been met?
14:41:15 <JF> Conformance is how well something, such as a product, service or a system, meets a specified standard and may refer more specifically to: Conformance testing, testing to determine whether a product or system meets some specified standard. (source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformance#:~:text=Conformance%20is%20how%20well%20something,system%20meets%20some%20specified%20standard)
14:41:15 <Chuck_> ack Ch
14:41:37 <JF> Q+
14:41:39 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Important distinction, separate points
14:41:48 <jeanne> ack saj
14:42:09 <sarahhorton> sajkaj: Glad separate, everyone knowing is really difficult, do we mean ordinary mortals
14:42:15 <Chuck_> q+
14:42:33 <sarahhorton> ... don't know who's responsible, what's behind, know the experience, will admit not good with computers
14:42:43 <Makoto> q+
14:42:51 <sarahhorton> ... everyone is really hard
14:43:16 <sarahhorton> ... interested and capable 3rd party can judge, esp to support regulatory
14:43:23 <sarahhorton> ... clear on musts and shoulds
14:43:30 <sarahhorton> ... informed everyone
14:43:31 <Chuck_> q+ to say I'm going with "people" and not "everone" :-)
14:44:04 <sarahhorton> ... will be lack of transparency, licensing terms? May not be able to require
14:44:30 <sarahhorton> ... how does 3rd party figure out
14:44:57 <sarahhorton> JF: Look at formal definition
14:45:08 <sarahhorton> ... how well something, such as a product, service or a system, meets a specified standard
14:45:36 <sarahhorton> ... "how well something" measurement piece
14:46:05 <sarahhorton> ... measuring your output against perfect scenario, you measure against ideal
14:46:19 <jeanne> ack JF
14:46:25 <jeanne> ack Chuck
14:46:25 <Zakim> Chuck_, you wanted to say I'm going with "people" and not "everone" :-)
14:46:27 <sarahhorton> Chuck_: Go with "people"
14:46:31 <Chuck_> ack Ch
14:46:42 <sajkaj> q+
14:46:50 <sarahhorton> jeanne: People want public accountable reporting
14:47:49 <sarahhorton> Makoto: In Japan not legal law but have conformance claim, Japanese translation, added informative section on how to make claim
14:48:21 <sarahhorton> ... if JIS testing results will be able to find many conformance claims by public sectors, companies
14:48:36 <sarahhorton> ... want to show how they achieve level of accessibility for websites
14:49:09 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Helpful, easy to only look at US conformance
14:49:32 <sarahhorton> ... conformance used differently, need to be careful
14:49:54 <jeanne> ack Mak
14:49:58 <jeanne> ack saj
14:50:19 <sarahhorton> sajkaj: Channel Shadi, distinguish between conformance vs compliance
14:50:28 <sarahhorton> ... may work internationally
14:50:49 <JF> Q+
14:50:53 <sarahhorton> ... agree with JF talking about quantitatively specify
14:51:14 <sarahhorton> ... how do you measure opinion
14:52:18 <sarahhorton> ... may be able to quantify clear words, text alternative, quantitative judgements, need way to disambiguate
14:52:22 <jeanne> ack JF
14:52:44 <sarahhorton> JF: Understand, make distinction, measuring and declaration, gap between them
14:52:57 <sarahhorton> ... statement of measurable and unmeasurable and scoping
14:53:33 <sarahhorton> ... conformance to W3C recommendation, statement will report on measurable, protocols, scoping
14:53:48 <sarahhorton> ... big picture, reporting document part of WCAG conformance
14:54:18 <sarahhorton> sajkaj: Not saying different things, what constitutes reasonable
14:54:50 <sarahhorton> JF: Is including conformance document reasonable for WCAG 3
14:55:05 <sarahhorton> sajkaj: Can conform without making claim
14:55:16 <sarahhorton> JF: Do not have standardized way to make claim
14:55:42 <sarahhorton> sajkaj: Considering what those might look like, first looking at sampling, first build use cases, not there yet
14:56:31 <sarahhorton> JF: Have been given examples, Japan, posting docs, Jake mentioned in Netherlands, statements, given examples of it happening
14:56:40 <sarahhorton> ... ask if this is part of model?
14:56:57 <sarahhorton> ... get answer then can start defining what looks like, etc
14:57:09 <jeanne> q+ to caution competition with VPAT
14:57:17 <Makoto> FYI: Search results for "JIS X 8341-3 Testing results" (in Japanese)  https://www.google.com/search?q=JIS+X+8341-3+%E8%A9%A6%E9%A8%93%E7%B5%90%E6%9E%9C&sxsrf=AOaemvKBf_cOiFXm5V7z8Ex8D_Lx52OFdw:1634309677625&ei=LZZpYfXTJbHcmAWyu43AAQ&start=0&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwi1nqb-1czzAhUxLqYKHbJdAxg4HhDy0wN6BAgBED4&biw=1422&bih=766&dpr=1.35
14:57:38 <jeanne> ack jea
14:57:38 <sarahhorton> Jake: Statement generator in Netherlands
14:57:39 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to caution competition with VPAT
14:58:11 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Complex topic, approach with caution, others in business of creating statements, some required
14:58:19 <JF> Q+
14:58:20 <sarahhorton> ... don't want to compete with VPAT
14:58:39 <jeanne> ack JF
14:58:55 <sarahhorton> JF: VPATs are US-centric, not taken up in Europe
14:59:28 <sarahhorton> jeanne: Not meeting next week
14:59:54 <sarahhorton> ... following week, discussing process of getting new content in WCAG, talk through errors guidelien
15:00:04 <sarahhorton> ... will work more on this work if there's time
15:00:05 <JF> VPATs do not seem to be used outside of the US. Draws comparrison between Section 508 and WCAG 2 - W3C eventually won out
15:00:27 <JF> our work may obsolete VPATs if we do it right
15:03:38 <sarahhorton> rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/15-silver-minutes.html sarahhorton
16:19:06 <stevelee> stevelee has joined #silver