14:55:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
14:55:53 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/10/15-pbgsc-irc
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14:56:15 <tzviya> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
14:56:23 <tzviya> Date: 2021-10-15
14:57:38 <tzviya> agenda+ 1. Feedback/reactions on the 14-September public seminar
14:57:38 <tzviya> agenda+ EPUBcheck status
14:57:38 <tzviya> agenda+ Updates on EPUB.next TPAC session planning for 27 Oct
14:57:38 <tzviya> agenda+ AOB
14:58:32 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbgsc
14:59:27 <Ralph> present+ Liisa, Ralph
14:59:48 <Ralph> present+ Tzviya
14:59:56 <tzviya> chair: Tzviya
15:00:37 <Ralph> regrets+ Cristina
15:00:41 <Ralph> present+ WendyR
15:01:25 <Ralph> present+ Dauwhe
15:01:26 <dauwhe> present+
15:01:53 <dauwhe> scribe+ dauwhe
15:04:23 <Ralph> present+ Ivan
15:04:42 <dauwhe> tzviya: we can get started
15:04:55 <dauwhe> liisamk: what about the meeting on the 27th?
15:05:00 <dauwhe> tzviya: that's on the agenda
15:05:28 <Ralph> zakim, take up item 2
15:05:28 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- EPUBcheck status -- taken up [from tzviya]
15:05:53 <dauwhe> tzviya: we'll have an alpha release roughly the same time as EPUB 3.3 CR
15:05:59 <dauwhe> ... won't replace existing version
15:06:06 <dauwhe> ... then a beta based on initial feedback
15:06:32 <dauwhe> ... then a RC depending on Romain's availability
15:06:45 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:06:51 <Ralph> present+ George
15:07:07 <George> present+
15:07:39 <dauwhe> ivan: can we give Romain a few minutes in the F2F meeting?
15:07:44 <dauwhe> wendyreid: yes
15:08:02 <dauwhe> ivan: we need him on the friday session
15:08:25 <dauwhe> ... Apple has joined the EPUB 3 WG on Wednesday
15:08:33 <dauwhe> ... four people, including Tess
15:08:40 <dauwhe> ... two were on the call last night
15:09:01 <dauwhe> ... can we ask them to sponsor epubcheck?
15:09:17 <dauwhe> George: they put in $20k previously
15:09:22 <dauwhe> ivan: I didn't realize
15:09:27 <tzviya> ack r
15:09:36 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:09:41 <dauwhe> q+
15:10:02 <dauwhe> George: we provided feedback to them on their implementation of DPUB-ARIA
15:10:08 <dauwhe> ... and they responded
15:10:21 <dauwhe> ... and we provided feedback to google, apple, and to the screenreader companies
15:10:28 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
15:11:00 <dauwhe> dauwhe: the lead apple person (Vicky) works on the export from Pages to EPUB
15:11:15 <dauwhe> ivan: we have to get Amazon to complete the picture
15:11:36 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:12:20 <Ralph> regrets+ Mateus
15:13:29 <dauwhe> Topic: epub next meeting
15:13:36 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:13:38 <dauwhe> tzviya: liisa asks how we'll run this
15:13:45 <dauwhe> ... we've invited WG, CG, BG
15:13:54 <dauwhe> ... Karen and Bill have been reaching out
15:14:03 <dauwhe> ... I've spoken to people
15:14:09 <dauwhe> ... making it more publicly open
15:14:40 <dauwhe> ... I want to model this on how Markus started a new WG
15:14:44 <dauwhe> ... here's where we are
15:14:50 <dauwhe> ... here's what we've accomplished
15:14:53 <dauwhe> ... give me your ideas
15:15:04 <dauwhe> ... not quite a whiteboarding thing but...
15:15:15 <dauwhe> ... talk about what's worked and hasn't worked
15:15:25 <dauwhe> ... we won't talk about why things might not work
15:15:36 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:15:58 <dauwhe> ... and we don't want to get too deep in details
15:16:05 <dauwhe> ... we're not talking about interop
15:16:12 <dauwhe> ... does that make sense?
15:16:33 <dauwhe> ... there's a lot of work done with the locators TF
15:16:36 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:16:43 <dauwhe> ... that area is obvious for us to build off of
15:17:01 <dauwhe> ... there's FXL A11Y TF stuff too
15:17:08 <ivan> q+
15:17:24 <dauwhe> liisamk: I like the idea of going back to where we were with the survey
15:17:29 <dauwhe> ... and taking the pulse
15:17:45 <dauwhe> ... have things shifted since then? Are there things we haven't addressed?
15:17:47 <tzviya> ack ra
15:17:47 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to comment on interop
15:18:02 <dauwhe> Ralph: good reminder, Liisa, that we have those results
15:18:16 <dauwhe> ... if there's a lull we can mention the survey
15:18:49 <dauwhe> ... Tzviya, since you said you didn't want to talk about interop, I think that's correct
15:19:00 <dauwhe> ... but we've been focusing on interop in EPUB3 WG
15:19:10 <dauwhe> ... and we hope there's progress through testing, etc
15:19:33 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:19:36 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:19:39 <dauwhe> ivan: for the scope of the discussion
15:19:49 <dauwhe> ... are we talking epub next, or digital publishing next?
15:19:55 <dauwhe> ... how far for new features in epub
15:20:09 <dauwhe> ... or do we want to be open to a disucssion that goes beyond that
15:20:14 <dauwhe> ... and groups that don't use epub?
15:20:23 <dauwhe> ... we have to put boundaries on discussion
15:20:30 <dauwhe> ... how do we make that clear
15:20:32 <dauwhe> tzviya: great Q
15:20:43 <dauwhe> ... we can't put boundaries in before the call
15:21:05 <dauwhe> ... in education people are moving away from strictly epub; the package doesn't matter
15:21:22 <dauwhe> ... but in the world of trade it's different; EPUB will stay more like it is
15:21:27 <dauwhe> ... they might diverge
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15:22:24 <dauwhe> ivan: we frame this on the invitation as EPUB.next
15:22:43 <dauwhe> ... to make it clear from the beginning, if it leads to other things in other areas, that's OK
15:23:10 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:23:14 <dauwhe> tzviya: most people won't be imagining strict boundaries
15:23:22 <dauwhe> Ralph: +1 to most of what you said
15:23:36 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:23:37 <dauwhe> ... people might raise DRM question, we need to have an answer
15:23:39 <George> q+
15:24:14 <dauwhe> ... I hope that people who want more out of ebooks than epub has, I hope they come to the meeting
15:24:23 <dauwhe> ... I hope we will here the broader context
15:24:29 <ivan> q+
15:24:42 <dauwhe> s/here/hear/
15:25:26 <dauwhe> ... I think the question of what is the scope of the next WG , we'll here from the BG about the name... is it EPUB 4?
15:25:36 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:25:37 <tzviya> ack George
15:25:57 <dauwhe> George: scope needs to be wide open: reading and learning and how it happens in the future
15:26:16 <dauwhe> ... so that it works for everyone
15:26:24 <dauwhe> ... we haven't been testing in LMSs
15:26:30 <dauwhe> q?
15:26:31 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:26:52 <Ralph> how big a step is the industry interested in for the next iteration of our ebook work?
15:26:54 <dauwhe> ivan: towards the end of the meeting, the Q will come up: what's next?
15:27:07 <wendyreid> q+
15:27:13 <dauwhe> ... it would be good to have some idea on what to do
15:27:25 <dauwhe> ... if we want to have continuation work
15:27:36 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:27:44 <dauwhe> ... the EPUB WG charter ends in 2023... chartering takes 6 months...
15:27:52 <tzviya> q+
15:27:59 <dauwhe> at the end of winter/early spring we should have a good idea of a new charter
15:28:09 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
15:28:10 <dauwhe> ... how do we do that?
15:28:25 <dauwhe> wendyreid: how we manage the taking down of ideas
15:28:32 <dauwhe> ... we should have a scribe
15:28:38 <dauwhe> ivan: a good scribe
15:28:50 <dauwhe> wendyreid: one or two people responsible for whiteboarding
15:29:15 <dauwhe> ... using products like mural and figma
15:29:24 <dauwhe> ... people make sticky notes on a board
15:29:32 <dauwhe> ... people can add notes etc
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15:29:49 <Ralph> [I think Wendy was refering to https://miro.com/ ]
15:30:00 <dauwhe> ivan: this sounds good
15:30:31 <dauwhe> tzviya: we need to create issues from the whiteboarding tool
15:30:44 <Ralph> [... or Mural https://www.mural.co/ ]
15:31:06 <dauwhe> ... it has to be more than IRC
15:31:12 <dauwhe> ... what do we do at the end?
15:31:19 <dauwhe> ... we can tell people to join the CG
15:31:29 <dauwhe> ... and some of these convos can go to the BG
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15:31:38 <dauwhe> ... generate a list for actions for both groups
15:32:02 <dauwhe> ... we have Rick in BG now to provide more of an educational perspective
15:32:04 <Ralph> Tzviya: "does this idea have legs to stand on [for the businesses]?"
15:32:26 <ivan> q?
15:32:31 <tzviya> ack me
15:32:39 <dauwhe> ivan: on a practical level
15:32:50 <dauwhe> ... it's better to have a separate repo for these issues
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15:33:43 <dauwhe> Ralph: the combination of the ideas--a separate repo for .next, but it's owned by the CG--that's not inconsistent
15:33:50 <dauwhe> tzviya: we can leave that to the CG chairs
15:34:05 <dauwhe> Ralph: I'm hoping there's an accessible whiteboarding tool
15:34:17 <dauwhe> ... is a google doc good enough?
15:34:27 <dauwhe> ... as more people already know how to use it?
15:34:52 <dauwhe> ivan:  big problem with GDOc is China
15:35:14 <dauwhe> tzviya: we could use etherpad
15:35:19 <dauwhe> Ralph: that would probably work
15:35:36 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:35:40 <dauwhe> ... do the chairs want lots of people to be able to scribble?
15:35:58 <dauwhe> tzviya: I'm fine with etherpad
15:36:12 <Ralph> +1 to etherpad
15:36:16 <dauwhe> wendyreid: we need somewhere for people to write down ideas, whatever it is
15:36:31 <dauwhe> George: as long as ideas are recorded and voiced
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15:36:49 <dauwhe> ivan: how does etherpad work for you?
15:36:58 <liisamk> https://etherpad.org/
15:37:00 <dauwhe> tzviya: it's a predecessor to gdocs
15:37:05 <dauwhe> ... I'll check with Avneesh
15:37:31 <dauwhe> tzviya: now we need people to attend
15:37:42 <Ralph> [W3C runs an etherpad server, so we have the bits]
15:38:54 <dauwhe> tzviya: if it's ok with Avneesh I'll set up etherpad
15:39:07 <dauwhe> ... do we need irc too?
15:39:24 <dauwhe> ivan: having two is confusing
15:39:32 <dauwhe> Ralph: you woulnd't take the usuaal minutes
15:39:36 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:40:02 <dauwhe> ivan: we should have IRC for queue
15:40:05 <dauwhe> tzviya: we can use zoom
15:40:15 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:41:03 <dauwhe> Ralph: what I imagined the whiteboard as a post-it sort of thing
15:41:36 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:41:45 <dauwhe> George: it's hard to know what's happening in a GDoc with simultaneous edits
15:41:58 <dauwhe> (is going to stop minuting discussions of technology)
15:44:09 <dauwhe> tzviya: we have a game plan
15:45:00 <dauwhe> ... any other business?
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15:46:14 <dauwhe> http://idpf.org/epub/renditions/region-nav/
15:46:36 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:52:02 <tzviya> q?
15:52:11 <dauwhe> tzviya: anything else?
15:52:15 <dauwhe> ... thanks everyone
15:52:56 <ivan> THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I DID NOT WANT!!!!
16:04:31 <ivan> no I did
16:05:00 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
16:05:00 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Liisa, Ralph, Tzviya, WendyR, Dauwhe, Ivan, George
16:05:03 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:05:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/15-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
16:05:06 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:05:11 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc
16:06:12 <Ralph> rrsagent, please make record public
16:07:48 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
16:07:48 <RRSAgent> I see no action items