17:02:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #immersive-web
17:02:00 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/10/14-immersive-web-irc
17:02:03 <Nick-8thWall> Nick-8thWall has joined #immersive-web
17:02:07 <atsushi> rrsagent, make log public
17:02:24 <atsushi> meeting: Immersive-Web WG/CG (extended) group call
17:05:06 <yonet> yonet has joined #immersive-web
17:08:22 <atsushi> agenda: https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/tree/main/TPAC-2021
17:08:30 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #immersive-web
17:08:48 <atsushi> agenda+ Solve a11y 4eva (Cover some new work and polish document)
17:08:55 <atsushi> agenda+ Charter progress update and Charter 3:The Chartering
17:08:58 <yonet> present+
17:09:02 <atsushi> agenda+ Depth testing across layers
17:09:08 <atsushi> agenda+ Break
17:09:14 <atsushi> agenda+ Focus control for handheld AR
17:09:20 <atsushi> agenda+ Break
17:09:27 <cwilso> scribe?
17:09:33 <atsushi> agenda+ Discussion: Getting Hand Input to CR
17:09:41 <atsushi> agenda+ Communicate earlier that the UA doesn't need a depth texture
17:09:48 <atsushi> agenda+ Extending WebExtensions for XR
17:09:54 <atsushi> agenda+ Break
17:09:56 <bajones> present+
17:10:03 <atsushi> agenda+ XRCapture Module
17:10:11 <atsushi> agenda+ Expose a way to query a session about the supported features - need to reconsider?
17:10:17 <atsushi> agenda+ Break
17:10:24 <ada> https://www.w3.org/2020/05/immersive-Web-wg-charter.html
17:10:25 <atsushi> agenda+ Projection matrices differ between WebGL and WebGPU
17:10:28 <atsushi> topic: charter
17:10:32 <atsushi> s/topic: charter/
17:10:39 <atsushi> zakim, take up agendum 2
17:10:39 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Charter progress update and Charter 3:The Chartering -- taken up [from atsushi]
17:10:43 <atsushi> zakim, list agenda
17:10:43 <Zakim> I see 14 items remaining on the agenda:
17:10:44 <Zakim> 1. Solve a11y 4eva (Cover some new work and polish document) [from atsushi]
17:10:44 <Zakim> 2. Charter progress update and Charter 3:The Chartering [from atsushi]
17:10:44 <Zakim> 3. Depth testing across layers [from atsushi]
17:10:44 <Zakim> 4. Break [from atsushi]
17:10:44 <Zakim> 5. Focus control for handheld AR [from atsushi]
17:10:45 <Zakim> 6. Break [from atsushi]
17:10:45 <Zakim> 7. Discussion: Getting Hand Input to CR [from atsushi]
17:10:45 <Zakim> 8. Communicate earlier that the UA doesn't need a depth texture [from atsushi]
17:10:47 <Zakim> 9. Extending WebExtensions for XR [from atsushi]
17:10:47 <Zakim> 10. Break [from atsushi]
17:10:47 <Zakim> 11. XRCapture Module [from atsushi]
17:10:47 <Zakim> 12. Expose a way to query a session about the supported features - need to reconsider? [from atsushi]
17:10:47 <Zakim> 13. Break [from atsushi]
17:10:48 <Zakim> 14. Projection matrices differ between WebGL and WebGPU [from atsushi]
17:10:50 <RafaelCintron_> RafaelCintron_ has joined #immersive-web
17:12:53 <idris> idris has joined #immersive-web
17:16:01 <ada> zakim, choose a victim
17:16:01 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose yonet
17:16:09 <ada> zakim, choose a victim
17:16:09 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose bajones
17:16:23 <cabanier> present+
17:16:28 <ada> present+
17:16:32 <bialpio> present+
17:16:34 <Jared> present+
17:16:40 <cwilso> present+
17:16:51 <klausw> present+
17:17:00 <atsushi> present+
17:17:23 <idris> present+
17:17:43 <Michael_Hazani> Michael_Hazani has joined #immersive-web
17:17:45 <bajones> scribenick: bajones
17:18:57 <bajones> We forgot to set up a scribe for a bit, been talking about re-chartering
17:19:24 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes
17:19:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/14-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
17:19:28 <bajones> ada: We want to carry forward all the previous specs to the new charter, right?
17:20:12 <bajones> ada: Gaze tracking? Y/N?
17:21:17 <bajones> klaus: There was quite a bit of concern about it, and there's higher level alternatives such as focus events.
17:21:26 <bajones> ada: Okay, let's remove it.
17:21:33 <bajones> ... image tracking?
17:22:28 <bajones> klausw: What's the scope? Raw camera access may be sufficient?
17:22:54 <bajones> ada: If we drop it we can't ship an image detection spec without rechartering
17:23:00 <bajones> ... face detection?
17:23:11 <bajones> klausw: I don't know that anyone is working on that.
17:23:25 <bajones> ada: I think we should remove it.
17:23:32 <yonet> Q+
17:23:48 <bajones> ... so in summary, drop gaze tracking and face detection.
17:25:10 <Jared> 3d favicons is a great example
17:25:13 <bajones> ... What topics should we look at adding?
17:25:47 <bajones> bajones: We should consider features that aren't explicitly hardware-related, like 3d favicons.
17:26:30 <bajones> ada: Yes, we should look at volumetric CSS, 3d favicons and <dramatic pause> the model tag.
17:27:14 <bajones> yonet: Face detection has been used for a while for security, and gaze tracking as well. So there are security concerns.
17:27:37 <bajones> klausw: Gaze could be proivded as an XRInput device.
17:29:03 <bajones> ada: Let's swing back around to this after we talk about new proposals/blue sky.
17:29:11 <ada> zakim, choose a victim
17:29:11 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ada
17:30:06 <ada> https://github.com/immersive-web/layers/issues/135
17:30:33 <ada> Depth testing accross layers
17:30:55 <ada> The problem with layers is that they don't intersect they just sit on top
17:31:28 <ada> e.g. A projection layer on top of a cylinder layer needs to have a hole punched ut
17:31:39 <ada> and if you put the cylinder layer in front you cannot see the controllers
17:32:00 <ada> This is a dirty hack which breaks if you move fast
17:32:22 <atsushi> i|https://github.com/immersive-web/layers/issues/135|topic: Depth testing across layers
17:32:23 <ada> We've been looking at having depth sorting between layers to do actual sorting
17:33:00 <ada> This would be great for having multiple projection layers which can be combined
17:33:50 <ada> The issues comes with opacity i.e. a piece of glass in front of a cylinder layer
17:34:14 <ada> q+ to shout yes
17:34:17 <bajones> q+
17:34:18 <Jared> Yes
17:34:25 <Jared> Super interested in that to experiment.
17:34:44 <yonet> ack yonet
17:34:49 <yonet> ack ada
17:34:49 <Zakim> ada, you wanted to shout yes
17:35:04 <ada> ada: yes I think it is fine if that is a known edge case
17:35:07 <yonet> ack bajones
17:35:38 <Michael_Hazani> q+
17:35:52 <ada> bajones: there are two types of depth sorting. 1. the compositor tests against my depth buffer when rendering the depth buffers
17:36:27 <ada> the second type is when we have multiple projection layers which will need a per pixel test to test if each pixel is closer to the camera
17:36:36 <ada> q+
17:37:06 <ada> cabanier: we are thinking of doing the second case as it is what has been requested of us
17:37:14 <dino> dino has joined #immersive-web
17:39:11 <Nick-8thWall> q+
17:39:25 <ada> currently you couldn't have any intersecting layers in an X shape without the second style of compositing
17:39:42 <ada> currently they would obscure eachother in a punch through kind of way
17:39:52 <ada> bajones: how do you imagine this to be enabled?
17:40:30 <ada> bajones: it seems you want a per-layer toggle for this
17:40:56 <ada> cabanier:it seems for that situation you could work around it with WebGL
17:41:45 <yonet> ack Michael_Hazani
17:42:23 <ada>  Michael_Hazani: I just wanted to express our enthusiasm for this one of our products really relies on it
17:42:44 <ada> one of the things we would like to do is multiple XR sessions on top of eachother
17:43:07 <Jared> q+
17:43:27 <yonet> ack ada
17:43:45 <yonet> ada: when Rick described the multi session use case
17:44:15 <bajones> q+ to say that depth testing across sessions may require a shared depth range
17:44:28 <yonet> ada: it is very powerful, combining immersive AR and VR session, without the AR layer
17:44:55 <yonet> ack Nick-8thWall
17:45:06 <ada> ada: like iframes in HTML but for WebxR
17:46:13 <ada> Nick-8thWall: we want to use DOMLayers to attatch interfaces to users, having it semi transparent would be really valuable
17:46:47 <cabanier> q+
17:48:52 <cabanier> q-
17:49:00 <yonet> ack jared
17:49:11 <ada> ada: I think in that situation you could work around it via having the semi transparent layers be the frontmost layers
17:49:45 <ada> Nick-8thWall: just wanted to ensure that the wrist mounted or HUD use case was covered
17:49:54 <yonet> ack bajones
17:49:54 <Zakim> bajones, you wanted to say that depth testing across sessions may require a shared depth range
17:50:11 <ada> Jared: even an implementation with the semi-transparent limitations will be useful for us
17:51:09 <ada> bajones: right now with webxr you set a depth range for the whole session, that might not be the case if it gets to the point where we are extending it. I think there are more issues but this is just one which comes to mind. At least within the same XR session this should work itself out fairly naturally.
17:51:49 <ada> cabanier: @Nick-8thWall DOM Layers will always be opaque at least how they are defined right now
17:52:03 <ada> but cylinder or quad layers can have transparency but should blend correctly
17:53:41 <bajones> For the record: A possible issue with transparancy on geometric layers is intersecting layers with transparency on both sides of the intersection. If two quad layers are arranged in an X and both have transparency there's not a natural order to render them in.
18:01:45 <cabanier> scribenick: cabanier
18:01:56 <cabanier> topic: Focus control for handheld AR
18:01:59 <yonet> agenda:https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1210
18:02:00 <bialpio> q+
18:02:06 <atsushi> zakim, take up agendum 5
18:02:06 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Focus control for handheld AR -- taken up [from atsushi]
18:02:11 <cabanier> klausw: for phone ar, autofocus is off
18:02:27 <cabanier> ... because it can cause issues
18:02:27 <atsushi> s|agenda:https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1210||
18:02:45 <atsushi> issue link -> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1210
18:02:45 <cabanier> ... you can choose fixed focus at a far distance or a close distance
18:03:00 <ada> q+ to ask whether it would make sense to tie to hit-test
18:03:06 <cabanier> ... if you want to do marker tracking, you can't detect things that are close
18:03:21 <ada> ack bialpio
18:03:22 <cabanier> ... should apps have a way to express this?
18:03:30 <Nick-8thWall> q+
18:03:39 <cabanier> bialpio: what do people think about this feature?
18:03:48 <cabanier> ... there hasn't been much activity on this?
18:04:01 <cabanier> ... or are we ok with the way it is right now?
18:04:09 <alexturn> alexturn has joined #immersive-web
18:04:25 <cabanier> klausw: one problem is that marker tracking that needs it, can't use it
18:04:43 <cabanier> bialpio: we might be more forward thinking
18:05:02 <cabanier> ... the tag wants to have focus control for raw camera access
18:05:14 <cabanier> ... so maybe we should think about the focus control now
18:05:14 <ada> q?
18:05:17 <ada> ack ada
18:05:17 <Zakim> ada, you wanted to ask whether it would make sense to tie to hit-test
18:05:33 <cabanier> ada: I've definitely come across this
18:05:51 <cabanier> ... can the user agent can take care of this?
18:06:06 <cabanier> ... I guess it can be hard for the UA to do so
18:06:08 <ada> q?
18:06:10 <ada> ack Nick-8thWall
18:06:30 <cabanier> Nick-8thWall: this is a major issue that we run into when scanning qr code
18:06:50 <cabanier> ... I had to print qr codes out on large pieces on paper
18:06:59 <cabanier> ... we prefer that autofocus is always on
18:07:27 <klausw> q+
18:07:46 <cabanier> ... on other platforms, we always set things to autofocus because it's clearly the best experience
18:08:09 <LachlanFord> LachlanFord has joined #immersive-web
18:08:09 <ada> q?
18:08:17 <ada> ack klausw
18:08:18 <cabanier> ... my preference would be to make autofocus always the default and maybe have an option to turn it off
18:08:30 <cabanier> ... autofocus is clearly the better solution
18:08:45 <cabanier> klausw: I'm unsure when autofocus would make things worse
18:09:06 <cabanier> ... people don't seem excited to have an API
18:09:19 <ada> q?
18:09:25 <cabanier> ... the app wouldn't know if a device wouldn't work well with autofocus
18:09:48 <cabanier> Nick-8thWall: on 8th wall, it's very hard to determine what the best experience is on each device
18:10:06 <cabanier> ... on most devices autofocus is best but on some it doesn't work as well
18:10:31 <klausw> q+
18:10:31 <cabanier> ... it's unworkable for us to have a per device decision
18:10:37 <ada> ack klausw
18:10:55 <cabanier> klausw: so nobody is interested in making this an API?
18:11:12 <cabanier> ... so user agents are free to choose autofocus?
18:11:34 <cabanier> ... or maybe it can be triggered by other signals.
18:12:16 <cabanier> 0
18:12:19 <Nick-8thWall> 0 or +1
18:12:29 <idris> 0
18:12:31 <Jared> 0
18:12:31 <klausw> 0 or +1
18:12:38 <ada> 0.5
18:12:41 <atsushi> 0.25
18:12:48 <yonet> .5
18:12:51 <cwilso> i
18:12:54 <bialpio> 0 or +1
18:13:05 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes
18:13:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/14-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
18:13:14 <cabanier> ada: it seems people want the user agent to make a decision based on heuristics
18:13:42 <atsushi> i/Depth testing accross layers/scribenick+ ada/
18:13:51 <cabanier> klausw: ok, we'll make a decision. We might turn on autofocus but then turn it off for certain devices
18:15:15 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes
18:15:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/14-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
18:35:00 <dino> present+
18:35:32 <ada> zakim, choose a victim
18:35:32 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Jared
18:35:53 <ada> topic: TPAC Discussion: Getting Hand Input to CR
18:36:25 <yonet> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr-hand-input/issues/107
18:36:34 <LachlanFord> q+
18:36:44 <ada> ack LachlanFord
18:37:17 <cabanier> q+
18:37:54 <cwilso> q?
18:38:35 <Jared> LachlanFord: started working on web platform testing (WPT)
18:39:46 <bialpio> q+
18:40:13 <atsushi> q+ for just comment, please complete self review checklist before requesting HRs
18:40:29 <ada> ack cabanier
18:40:51 <ada> ada to moan about W3C sticklers regarding implementations
18:41:05 <ada> q+ ada to moan about W3C sticklers regarding implementations
18:41:11 <Jared> Rik: Although both Chromium, we're do not share code.
18:41:13 <LachlanFord> q+
18:41:36 <ada> ack bialpio
18:41:39 <Jared> Rik: WPT should run on Android, as soon as it's up we can write the test
18:41:55 <alcooper> alcooper has joined #immersive-web
18:43:06 <Jared> blialpio: Not sure what requirements are, launch process before launching a feature should work. It seems like it is up to us to advance. Not sure if WPTs are blocking but they are good to have. Not sure how Oculus Browser is setup. We use a fake device implementation. We are mocking device to only test 'blink code' and can chat about it later.
18:43:12 <ada> ack atsushi
18:43:12 <Zakim> atsushi, you wanted to discuss just comment, please complete self review checklist before requesting HRs
18:44:03 <Jared> atsushi: For horizontal review, please do self-check list. I can do international, there is a self-check list for all horizontal review areas. Please complete first. I will post link to the procedure.
18:44:15 <ada> q?
18:44:18 <ada> ack ada
18:44:18 <Zakim> ada, you wanted to moan about W3C sticklers regarding implementations
18:44:26 <atsushi> HR procedure -> https://www.w3.org/Guide/documentreview/
18:45:47 <Jared> ada: We might in the long term get pushback from some folks in W3C. Two independent implementations may be met with skepticism. Is this something that Apple may able to show?
18:46:10 <Jared> dino: We don't have devices, but we have the barebones implemented in Webkit.
18:46:31 <Jared> ada: It is working in Linux in Egalia ?
18:47:18 <Jared> dino: Egalia has it working. Mac had it working, on Valve headsets. Currently code isn't open source, or in a product so it wouldn't work. Anything we do for our implemenation will work for Igalia as well. The question is if they have hand-tracking.
18:47:21 <ada> s/Egalia/Igalia
18:48:16 <dino> s/they have/they support a device with native hand-tracking/
18:49:51 <Jared> ada: Adding it to the horizontal review checklist. The TAG may have added things to the checklist. Once everyone who is satisfied with this, ping Chris or Ada, to get it done. It is on our homepage. There is an editor's draft. Did we do a CFP for that?
18:50:09 <Jared> dino: Since it shipping in two browsers we should move it to a public working draft.
18:50:52 <Jared> Ada: It says WebXR hand tracking already has a working draft. The next step is putting it forward to CR. We could wait to put it forward for CR, or to it now.
18:51:17 <Jared> Dino: I don't think we can go to CR until we can even test that the two implementations are correct. I am happy to help as much as I can like writing tests:
18:51:28 <Jared> Ada: Lachlan, you're working on tests?
18:51:47 <Jared> Lachlan: Yes, Dino and I are working in tests.
18:52:05 <ada> Once WPT is done ping immersive-web-chairs@w3.org and we will put it forward for a CFP for CR
18:52:23 <dino> q+
18:52:25 <dino> q-
18:52:30 <ada> ack LachlanFord
18:52:59 <Jared> LachlanFord: I think I'm on the queue, it was about implementations. I think Mozilla is there.
18:53:16 <Jared> Ada: So we do have two independent implementations?
18:53:30 <Jared> LachlanFord: Yes, I believe so
18:53:31 <yonet> topic: https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1228
18:54:32 <Jared> Rick: Mozilla had an implementation on the prior version on the API and it wasn't public.
18:55:04 <ada> topic: Communicate earlier that the UA doesn't need a depth texture
18:55:27 <ada> https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1228
18:56:48 <bajones> q+
18:56:57 <Jared> Rick: This should be a short topic. After you create your WebGL, projection layer. You are told you don't need a depth texture, even though you just made one. It would be nice to know before you create. You create color and depth. If you knew ahead of time you would not need to create the extra texture. At the moment if you want to do multi-sampled you lose the memory for no reason. If there could be an attribute, the same attributes that sa[CUT]
18:57:04 <ada> q+ to ask about fingerprinting
18:57:28 <ada> ack bajones
18:57:32 <Jared> Rick: yes, no, it could be avoided. Shouldn't be controversial. Any objections to propose if you need it or not?
18:58:38 <klausw> present-
18:58:45 <RafaelCintron_> q+
18:58:49 <ada> ac kada
18:58:53 <Jared> bajones: I don't find anything objectionable. There may be many cases where people ignore it. If you are going to put it somewhere, it feels natural to put on the WebGL binding. The binding seems like the place where you differentiate and you need to create the binding anyone. Seems like a great to put in that interface. Seems like a great way to allow for better memory use.
18:58:53 <ada> ack ada
18:58:53 <Zakim> ada, you wanted to ask about fingerprinting
18:59:16 <Jared> ada: Is this a property for before a session is granted? This is one more bit of fingerprinting. Could be worth considering.
19:00:02 <cabanier> q+
19:00:41 <Jared> bajones: Assuming it is on the binding.. It could be on the session itself but I don't see a reason to have it there. There is always a possibility that you could have different pieces of hardware depending on your systems. Depending on if you have multiple devices on a system.
19:00:43 <yonet> Sure
19:00:56 <yonet> q+
19:01:06 <yonet> ack RafaelCintron_
19:01:14 <yonet> q-
19:01:41 <Jared> RafaelCintron: I don't object. This is helpful for reprojection. Knowing this allows them to know what they are opting into.
19:02:00 <yonet> ack cabanier
19:02:14 <Jared> bajones: good point, we should show that depth buffers are preferred. If this is there we should have them consider that they should provide it.
19:03:00 <Jared> rick: In the case of the quest this would be false. The three.js attribute we will not populate the depth texture. This is why we proposed it, it would be nice if we don't request it in the first place.
19:10:40 <yonet> topic: Extending WebExtensions for XR https://github.com/immersive-web/proposals/issues/43
19:12:01 <yonet> Zakim/choose a victim
19:12:26 <yonet> Zakim, choose a victim
19:12:26 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose dino
19:12:46 <yonet> Zakim, choose a victim
19:12:46 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose bialpio
19:13:22 <bialpio> scribenick: bialpio
19:14:28 <bialpio> ada: older issue, the idea has been brought up a couple times, in general the idea of combining 2 immersive sessions where neither session needs to be aware that it's embedded in another
19:14:49 <yonet> chair:yonet
19:14:55 <bialpio> ada: important idea is iframes, so you could drop one page inside of another - it'd be powerful to do this for webxr
19:15:30 <bialpio> ada: you could have an avatar system running on a separate domain, you could feed it locations of people and it'd populate it w/ avatars
19:16:09 <LachlanFord> q+
19:16:12 <bialpio> ada: is this still something that people would like? if so, what is missing to enable it?
19:16:27 <Nick-8thWall> q+
19:16:29 <bialpio> LachlanFord: yes, people want to explore it
19:16:33 <ada> ack LachlanFord
19:16:37 <ada> ack Nick-8thWall
19:17:06 <bialpio> Nick-8thWall: random first impressions - it's important to have for example payment integrations
19:17:16 <bialpio> ... it'd be very useful
19:17:35 <LachlanFord> q+
19:17:37 <Jared> Agreed! There is a big list of those types of apps in the Aardvark project
19:17:40 <ada> ack LachlanFord
19:17:41 <bialpio> ada: other use cases off the top of people's heads?
19:18:10 <bialpio> LachlanFord: you get more utility if you have something that's composable
19:18:49 <bialpio> ada: earlier topic of combining layers touched upon this as it'd be needed to solve this
19:18:55 <LachlanFord> q+
19:19:01 <ada> ack LachlanFord
19:19:07 <bialpio> ada: how about the computing power required? would this be a blocker?
19:19:27 <bialpio> LachlanFord: input routing and security are major concerns
19:19:58 <bialpio> ... composition of multiple full screen images is expensive e.g. on hololens
19:20:37 <bialpio> ... maybe pixels arent the thing to work with
19:21:04 <bialpio> ada: what if we had small widgets that'd be visible and bounding-box them - would that help?
19:21:55 <bialpio> ada: if you wanted to compose multiple sessions - there may be issues around z-fighting (floor plane) and skyboxes
19:22:00 <cabanier> q+
19:22:04 <ada> ack cabanier
19:22:36 <bialpio> cabanier: is the proposal that the main page enters immersive session, all the other iframes would as well?
19:23:07 <bialpio> ada: unsure, maybe a second level of layers that pull content from a 3rd party
19:23:31 <bialpio> ... or maybe you listen in to some event that fires when the main page enters immersive session
19:23:51 <bialpio> ... would like to brainstorm this
19:23:56 <Nick-8thWall> q+
19:24:03 <Jared> q+
19:24:16 <bialpio> cabanier: may require a lot of changes, maybe not in the API but in the implementation in the UAs
19:24:25 <ada> ack Nick-8thWall
19:25:04 <bialpio> Nick-8thWall: similar to iframes where you pick where they are on the page, it will be important to do something like it for where they are in the session
19:25:37 <bialpio> ... potentially taking 2 clip volumes and merging them together would not make sense - how do you define a logical volume that an inner experience is allowed to fill is important to solve here
19:26:17 <bialpio> ada: good point, we can force the inner experiences to have different scales / do sth with them
19:26:33 <ada> q?
19:26:36 <ada> ack Jared
19:26:40 <bialpio> ... taking a diorama of the inner experience can be handy
19:27:07 <bialpio> Jared: great to have discussions around it, it's very powerful to have multiple sessions running alongside each other
19:27:31 <bialpio> ... we're experimenting w/ OpenXR and making some progress
19:28:33 <bialpio> ... it's possible to experiment with chromium and openxr
19:28:55 <bialpio> ... there's still some issues but it's still possible to get useful things out of it
19:29:30 <bialpio> yonet: link to a gif, something like changing the scale of the inner experience
19:29:46 <bialpio> ... https://github.com/Yonet/Yonet/blob/main/images/headTracking.gif
19:30:13 <bialpio> ada: probably not adding to the charter now, but maybe TPAC+1 ?
19:44:36 <yonet> topic: XRCapture Module https://zspace.com/
19:44:47 <yonet> https://github.com/immersive-web/proposals/issues/68
19:48:17 <bialpio> <end of the break>
19:48:57 <bialpio> alcooper: asks to enable capture of AR / VR experiences
19:49:16 <bialpio> ... gap with native approaches (SceneViewer on Android, Hololens also has a way)
19:49:29 <ada> q?
19:49:32 <bialpio> ... no good solution in WebXR so far
19:49:36 <cabanier> q+
19:49:46 <bialpio> ... approach with secondary view but would miss out on DOM overlay
19:50:02 <bialpio> ... the proposal is a new API to start recording a session and dump it on the disk
19:50:19 <ada> q?
19:50:24 <ada> ack cabanier
19:50:33 <bajones> q+
19:50:34 <bialpio> ... privacy issues mentioned, the mitigation is to dump it on disk instead of sharing the camera feed with the page (if it doesn't ask for raw camera access explicitly)
19:52:42 <bialpio> bajones: there are 2 different outputs of the API - one is that when you use the API to record, the capture will end up on the device's storage (triggers native capture of the device), but then you get a share handle out of it which means the file that was captured can be shared with the device
19:52:59 <bialpio> ... initially I thought that if a recording is not immediately shared, it'll be lost, but that is not the case
19:53:27 <bialpio> cabanier: initial proposal to use views - misunderstood the proposal
19:53:41 <bialpio> ... in oculus, this is possible via an OS menu
19:53:48 <ada> q+ to mention the web share api
19:53:49 <bialpio> ... can this be achieved similarly?
19:54:23 <bialpio> alcooper: the way the API is proposed is to have a function that takes an enum value (screenshot vs video vs 360video vs ...)
19:54:31 <bajones> q+
19:54:32 <ada> ack bajones
19:54:34 <bialpio> q+
19:55:26 <bialpio> bajones: I don't recall how it works on Oculus, I think it's appropriate to have a way for an API to display a system dialog
19:55:39 <bialpio> ... it's not appropriate to just do things w/o confirmation
19:56:02 <bialpio> ... it feels that the API should hint to the system dialog about what the page requested
19:56:33 <bialpio> alcooper: the only issue w/ hinting is that the page may not expect that it needs to stop recording
19:57:13 <ada> q?
19:57:15 <Nick-8thWall> q+
19:57:15 <ada> ack ada
19:57:16 <Zakim> ada, you wanted to mention the web share api
19:57:20 <bialpio> ... one of the items is it's built in into the native solutions that don't show prompts but this being the web we need a confirmation
19:57:34 <bialpio> q-
19:57:55 <alcooper> q+ about webshare
19:58:09 <ada> q?
19:58:12 <ada> ack Nick-8thWall
19:58:17 <bialpio> ada: similar to Web Share, where instead of giving an URL and text to share, it's a special thing that pops up a dialog and the promise gets resolved after the dialog is dismissed
19:58:54 <ada> oh you need the 'to' to add the note
19:58:58 <ada> qi about
19:59:02 <ada> q- about
19:59:06 <ada> a- webshare
19:59:09 <bialpio> Nick-8thWall: things that can be tricky is providing a custom audio when capturing for example
19:59:14 <ada> q+ alcooper to talk about webshare
19:59:21 <ada> q- webshare
19:59:26 <cwilso> vq?
19:59:31 <yonet> q+
19:59:38 <bialpio> ... so getting some access to the media streams would be preferred route
19:59:38 <ada> ack alcooper
19:59:38 <Zakim> alcooper, you wanted to talk about webshare
19:59:53 <bialpio> alcooper: why not getUserMedia() - discussed in the explainer
19:59:58 <bialpio> q+
20:00:14 <bialpio> ... this piles on the privacy & security aspect
20:00:28 <bialpio> ... that's why the API is proposed as a new one
20:00:43 <bajones> q+
20:00:48 <bialpio> ... on Android there's no implementation for some of the things
20:00:50 <Nick-8thWall> q+
20:01:17 <bialpio> ... discussed with web share folks, the .share() function is a shim to web share API that adds the captured file to their list
20:01:23 <ada> q?
20:01:26 <ada> ack yonet
20:01:40 <bialpio> yonet: wanted to also talk about privacy
20:01:54 <bialpio> ... useful to just capture the 3d content w/o the background
20:02:07 <ada> q?
20:02:10 <ada> ack bialpio
20:03:07 <ada> q?
20:03:10 <ada> ack bajones
20:03:31 <bialpio> bialpio: getUserMedia() drawbacks - the immersive sessions may not show up in the pickers etc
20:04:14 <bialpio> bajones: we maybe could funnel things through getUserMedia() but it does seem like relying on an implementation detail
20:04:52 <bialpio> ... re: "useful to capture content w/o 3d backgroud" - is this an argument for or against?
20:05:15 <bialpio> yonet: it's an argument for because it gives us more control over what's captured
20:05:16 <ada> q+ to ask about returning an opaque buffer
20:05:20 <ada> ack Nick-8thWall
20:05:59 <bialpio> Nick-8thWall: to clarify - I did not recommend getUserMedia() as a mechanism, I wanted to get a handle to a media stream / track
20:06:35 <bialpio> ... you don't decide on the device, but you get media tracks out of a session
20:07:05 <bialpio> ... permission to record a session can be used as a permission to share things with the site
20:07:17 <ada> q?
20:07:19 <alcooper> q+ to talk about tracks
20:07:28 <ada> ack alcooper
20:07:28 <Zakim> alcooper, you wanted to talk about tracks
20:08:11 <bialpio> alcooper: understood about tracks, there is still a level of distinction between transiently getting access to camera feed
20:08:31 <bialpio> ... vs the API to trigger the system-level functions
20:08:48 <bialpio> ... triggering the recording does not mean the page gets the file
20:08:50 <ada> q?
20:08:57 <ada> ack ada
20:08:57 <Zakim> ada, you wanted to ask about returning an opaque buffer
20:09:26 <bialpio> ada: not a fan of having another API + a little bit
20:09:27 <Nick-8thWall> q+
20:09:47 <bialpio> ... we already have a way of handing out opaque buffers (images w/o CORS)
20:10:37 <yonet> We are over 10 minutes for this topic
20:10:39 <bialpio> ... it'd be nice to have something like this where you ask for a recording and get a URL (UUID) pointing to the resource that can be used with the share API
20:11:04 <bialpio> ... it separates creation of the file from exposing access to it
20:11:20 <ada> ack Nick-8thWall
20:12:11 <bialpio> Nick-8thWall: e.g. when we record 8thWall sessions, we will on the device transcode them to mp4 so it's important to be able to access the bytes of the media stream
20:12:41 <bialpio> ... on headsets with recording there is no expectation that there is a camera feed at all so no privacy impact
20:13:06 <bialpio> ... so we should not hamstring the API with a concern that is not always applicable
20:13:31 <bialpio> alcopper: encode the recording as something that would show up as a video file in the user's media library (so .mp4)
20:13:51 <bialpio> Nick-8thWall: other use cases like branding / watermarks
20:14:19 <bialpio> ... so there are cases where access to the recording is needed
20:14:32 <bialpio> q+
20:15:03 <bialpio> q-
20:15:08 <bialpio> +1
20:15:15 <bajones> +1
20:15:26 <yonet> +1
20:15:26 <cabanier> -1
20:15:27 <Nick-8thWall> +1, preference for media track implementation
20:15:27 <bialpio> ada: should we work on this? +1 or -1
20:16:08 <bialpio> side note: can watermarking / etc happen post-recording? i.e. when the file is shared with the site
20:16:32 <yonet> topic: Expose a way to query a session about the supported features - need to reconsider? https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1205
20:17:12 <cabanier> scribenick: cabanier
20:17:32 <bajones> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1tMTwkza_WDu5DNknrjwshECQ_OfzNToAXVpt7WXXi-0/edit?usp=sharing
20:18:45 <cabanier> bajones: we need to know what optional features were granted
20:19:08 <cabanier> ... the session might discard optional ones and you have no standard way of  figuring out
20:19:40 <cabanier> ... one of the scenarios had that the anchors api couldn't convey that there are no tracked anchors
20:19:52 <cabanier> ... this problem has come up often
20:20:20 <cabanier> ... the proposed solution is an array of granted features
20:20:33 <cabanier> ... (talks about the slide)
20:21:07 <cabanier> ... the only hitch is that the spec specifies them as "any", but they're always dom strings
20:21:15 <bialpio> q+
20:22:11 <cabanier> ... for instance, dom overlay has an elegant way to still pass a string by adding an optional dictionary in sessioninit
20:22:20 <yonet> ack bialpio
20:22:24 <cabanier> ... so features should be strings going forward
20:22:45 <cabanier> bialpio: we already say that the features should have a toString method
20:22:54 <cabanier> ... we might as well make them into string
20:23:03 <cabanier> ... so we don't lose anything
20:23:22 <cabanier> ... for anchors, depth sensing might be transitory
20:23:35 <cabanier> ... because it might come and go
20:23:52 <alcooper> q+
20:24:06 <yonet> ack alcooper
20:24:17 <cabanier> alcooper: bajones and I talked about this for the XRCapture module
20:24:27 <cabanier> ... you don't want to block a session on it
20:24:58 <cabanier> ... XRCapture would be impossible to know if the feature was granted
20:25:49 <bajones> Slides for the next section: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1wXzcwB-q9y4T5VL9sKRhAWz_2nvwAWdFtTvVgk43rlk/edit?usp=sharing
20:26:15 <yonet> topic: Projection matrices differ between WebGL and WebGPU https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/894
20:33:19 <yonet> Zakim, choose a victim
20:33:19 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose cabanier
20:33:29 <yonet> Zakim, choose a victim
20:33:29 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose atsushi
20:33:37 <yonet> Zakim, choose a victim
20:33:37 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose idris
20:33:46 <yonet> Zakim, choose a victim
20:33:46 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose atsushi
20:33:49 <yonet> Zakim, choose a victim
20:33:49 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose bialpio
20:34:04 <bialpio> scribenick: bialpio
20:34:27 <bialpio> bajones: the projection matrices are supposed to change to normalized device coordinates
20:34:37 <bialpio> ... webgl and webgpu have different conventions
20:34:56 <bialpio> ... so x,y are in -1,1 range, but depth range is 0,1 on webgpu
20:35:32 <bialpio> ... so if you take a webgl proj matrices and feed them to webgpu, you'll get a kind-of-ok results, but those won't be correct
20:36:10 <bialpio> ... for viewports, the problem is that webgl has an origin in lower-left corner, +y going up
20:36:32 <bialpio> ... webgpu is like other APIs, w/ origin in top-right corner, +y going down
20:36:53 <bialpio> s/top-right/top-left
20:37:22 <bialpio> ... it's a problem that you'd like to address before the content is being built
20:37:51 <bialpio> ... the idea is that things that need to change between the APIs will all go on an XRView
20:38:39 <bialpio> ... have XRFrame.getViewerPose() accept a parameter that'll accept the API name (as enum)
20:38:46 <bialpio> ... to specify which convention to use
20:38:49 <Nick-8thWall> q+
20:39:11 <bialpio> ... other approach is to leave it to devs to do the math
20:39:53 <bialpio> ... for proj matrices, there is a matrix to multiply by, similarly for viewports (not-too-hard adjustment is needed)
20:40:08 <bialpio> ... but I'd prefer to hand out the data the right way
20:40:23 <yonet> ack Nick-8thWall
20:41:01 <bialpio> Nick-8thWall: not too familiar w/ WebGPU & how it binds to WebXR session - right now you set up a web gl layer and that assumes WebGL
20:41:20 <bialpio> ... can't we just get the data in a correct context?
20:41:49 <bialpio> bajones: viewport comes from a specific layer so it knows if it's backed by WebGL vs WebGPU so no extra flag is needed
20:42:05 <bialpio> ... but that's not the case for projection matrix, it comes from XRView
20:42:19 <RafaelCintron_> q+
20:42:26 <bialpio> Nick-8thWall: can you have gl & gpu layers running side by side?
20:42:40 <bialpio> bajones: yes, theoretically
20:43:03 <yonet> ack RafaelCintron_
20:43:05 <bialpio> ... there should be no blockers to mix
20:43:08 <Nick-8thWall> q+
20:43:15 <bialpio> ... we just need to make sure we give the right data
20:44:18 <bialpio> RafaelCintron_: WebGPU is only accessible by the new layers spec so can we put the matrices on the binding (same for WebGL) - this way the apps could mix & match and will have access to the right data
20:44:45 <bialpio> ... it'd mean we're deprecating the existing fields
20:45:00 <bialpio> bajones: correct about deprecation
20:45:13 <yonet> ack Nick-8thWall
20:45:37 <bialpio> Nick-8thWall: whatever is the base layer is the default on the views, and we can have per-layer projection matrices?
20:46:29 <bialpio> bajones: having the projection matrix associated with the specific layer doesn't sound bad
20:46:36 <cabanier> +1 to what RafaelCintron_ said
20:47:06 <bialpio> cabanier: agreed w/ Rafael to put this info on a binding
20:47:27 <bialpio> bajones: do we want to port this to WebGL as well or leave it as is?
20:47:46 <bialpio> cabanier: yes, it should be added there as well
20:48:22 <bialpio> bajones: more WebGPU & WebXR conversations coming tomorrow, we can go back to it then
20:49:14 <yonet> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:49:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/14-immersive-web-minutes.html yonet
20:51:20 <yonet> RRSagent, make log public
23:59:59 <scribe> s/topic: Focus control for handheld AR//
23:59:59 <scribe> i/topic: TPAC Discussion: Getting Hand Input to CR/scribenick+ Jared/