14:02:47 RRSAgent has joined #act-r 14:02:47 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/10/14-act-r-irc 14:02:50 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:02:52 Meeting: ACT Rules Community Group Teleconference 14:03:42 agenda+ Call for review https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/461 14:03:43 agenda+ Update from the CT Task Forc 14:03:45 agenda+ Assigned issues: https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues?page=1&q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen 14:03:47 agenda+ Equivalent resource definition seems ambiguous https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/1622 14:03:50 agenda+ Wrap defined term in dfn elements https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/1664 14:03:52 agenda+ Add explanation on designing inapplicable test cases https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/1689 14:03:55 agenda+ Should "Link has non-empty name" apply to inheriting links? https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/1670 14:03:56 agenda+ Scope of table header cell rule https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/1548 14:03:58 agenda+ Consider rules for WCAG 2.2 https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/1695 14:04:00 agenda+ Use the internationalisation glossary https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/1682 14:04:02 agenda+ Collision between hidden and display: none https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/1698 14:04:09 agenda+ Visible label whitespace https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/1615 14:04:10 agenda+ Visible label is part of accessible name (need a volunteer) https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/1458 14:05:43 present+ Daniel 14:05:45 present+ 14:05:48 present+ 14:05:55 scribe: Jean-Yves 14:06:32 present+ 14:06:37 zakim, take up next 14:06:37 agendum 1 -- Call for review https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/461 -- taken up [from Wilco] 14:06:48 present+ 14:07:04 https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/pull/1726 14:07:28 Wilco: two 1-week calls from Wilco. Ready to go. 14:07:42 https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/pull/1715 14:08:24 Wilco: more coming today, some PR have been approved. 14:08:42 zakim, take up next 14:08:42 agendum 2 -- Update from the CT Task Forc -- taken up [from Wilco] 14:08:48 Todd_ has joined #act-r 14:09:06 present+ 14:09:31 s/CT Task Forc/ACT Task Force 14:10:05 Wilco: TF will starts revisiting older rules. Commit to review every rule at least once a year. 14:10:16 I'll have to mute halfway through the meeting to hop onto another meeting for work but will stay in IRC. 14:10:50 https://github.com/w3c/wcag-act/pull/521/files#r724174584 14:10:50 Wilco: We are updating the common input aspects. One from Carlos on CSS has been approved. One from JY needs discussion. 14:12:10 Jean-Yves: PR is copying existing assumption. Review request to remove one bit. Not confortable with changing the assumption as part of moving it. 14:12:30 Wilco: the discussed bit is the part about language being sufficiently understood. 14:13:18 Jean-Yves: Rule asking if something is descriptive requires to understand the language. 14:13:35 Carlos: some rules may be enough with just knowing what the language is. 14:14:10 Jean-Yves: we could remove that bit from the input aspects and keep it in individual rules if needed. 14:15:11 Wilco: so distinction between "I understand the language" and "I know what the language is". 14:15:58 Wilco: We should expand on this sentence and explain a bit why "sufficiently understood" is here. 14:16:13 Carlos: we can take the opportunity to clarify that not all rules need that. 14:16:43 Jean-Yves: I'll give a try. 14:17:38 Carlos: is "rule being *processed*" the word we use elsewhere? 14:21:13 Jean-Yves: I'll ping our Slack channel once done so we can all look at it. 14:21:26 zakim, take up next 14:21:26 agendum 3 -- Assigned issues: https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues?page=1&q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen -- taken up [from Wilco] 14:22:17 Wilco: working on migrating content to the redesign. Going a bit slowly. 14:22:42 Wilco: also been working on the namespaced elements. 14:23:23 Carlos: not much progress. Actually took more issues… 14:23:42 Helen: finished mine! 14:24:12 Wilco: some changes are requested on the PR. 14:25:05 Jean-Yves: looks like things are moving. Haven't done much progress. 14:25:24 zakim, take up next 14:25:24 agendum 4 -- Equivalent resource definition seems ambiguous https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/1622 -- taken up [from Wilco] 14:27:02 Wilco: the definition of "equivalent resource" seems ambiguous due to the use of "user expectations". 14:27:53 Wilco: sounds similar to "same purpose" 14:28:01 Carlos: I disagree. 14:28:10 I have to get to a work meeting but will remain on the call and in irc 14:28:50 Wilco: author set an expectation by link text. Where user comes from is an expectation. 14:30:38 https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/pull/220 14:31:15 Wilco: do you think this is ambiguous? 14:31:55 Daniel: yes. User may not be aware that resources fulfil or not their expectations. 14:32:37 Wilco: if visible text is different from accessible name, expectations are different for both kind of users. 14:33:11 Carlos: for this rule (link with same name), I think the user is the same. So we should compare expectations of the same user. 14:34:21 Carlos: for me the expectation part is more ambiguous than the user part. 14:35:18 Helen: would it relate more to someone sighted but using speech recognition? 14:35:50 Wilco: no, 2.5.3 would fail. But here, there might be potential difference of result if testing expectations of different users. 14:36:17 Wilco: A sighted users expectation might be met, but a screen reader users' one aren't. 14:36:59 Carlos: on this rule (link with same name), the expectation is only set by the accessible name. We compare two resources linked with the same name. 14:37:33 Carlos: it can be ambiguous to check if one resource matches one expectation, but maybe less if two resources match the same expectation. 14:37:56 Helen: I think the definition is very open ended, and open to interpretation. 14:38:37 Wilco: could we expand on this 14:38:48 Helen has joined #act-r 14:39:25 Wilco: e.g. saying the expectation are set by the link's name? 14:39:41 Jean-Yves: this won't work for all rules using the definition. 14:40:01 Wilco: does it sounds good to try and define expectation based on the info provided? 14:40:51 Carlos: not sure. For me "user expectation" is not the ambiguous part; the scope of the rule defines what should be used to form the expectation. For me the ambiguous bit is deciding if the expectation are equally well met. 14:41:31 Wilco: it is somewhat similar that saying that an image and its description should be equivalent. 14:43:46 Helen: expectation can be based on surrounding information. 14:44:57 Wilco: can be completely different resources, but still equivalent. Does "play new game" contains the expectation of which game to play, or does two different "new game" fulfil the same expectation. 14:45:13 Carlos: Same with "read more" link. They lead you to leading more stuff. 14:45:47 Wilco: I think I have an idea to work on that. I'll try something. 14:46:20 zakim, take up next 14:46:20 agendum 5 -- Wrap defined term in dfn elements https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/1664 -- taken up [from Wilco] 14:46:54 Jean-Yves: when we have a definition we use the underscore in the markdown file 14:47:07 ... but we could use semantic markup to do it 14:47:44 ... additionally we could use an id attribute in the element and link to it if needed 14:48:49 Wilco: makes sense, who's going to do that? 14:48:55 Jean-Yves: Definitions use underscore to italicise the defined term. HTML dfn element has this semantic. 14:49:31 Wilco: let's do it, at least slowly when updating existing file. 14:50:01 Jean-Yves: I'll update the design document. Plus make one example. 14:51:24 Wilco: markdown processing should handle it fine. 14:53:33 agenda? 14:54:01 zakim, take up next 14:54:02 agendum 6 -- Add explanation on designing inapplicable test cases https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/1689 -- taken up [from Wilco] 14:54:20 Helen has joined #act-r 14:54:45 Jean-Yves: a good inapplicable example should look like its bad, but in fact it's not a problem 14:55:16 ... because that helps separate tools 14:55:57 ... but it's counter intuitive because it seems to be failing some SC 14:57:01 Wilco: not every inapplicable example has to be "look bad. e.g. "page is titled" has IE of titled SVG. 14:58:08 Helen: is this about rule being technology specific, and technologies working differently rules also have to work differently. 14:58:35 Wilco: Final thoughts? 15:00:49 zakim, end meeting 15:00:49 As of this point the attendees have been Daniel, CarlosD, Jean-Yves, Wilco, Helen, Todd_ 15:00:51 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v1 15:00:51 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/14-act-r-minutes.html Zakim 15:00:55 I am happy to have been of service, Wilco; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 15:01:00 Zakim has left #act-r