15:35:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webdriver
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15:35:45 <AutomatedTester_> RRSAgent: quiet
15:35:45 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'quiet', AutomatedTester_.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
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15:38:35 <AutomatedTester_> Meeting: October 2021 WebDriver
15:38:50 <AutomatedTester_> chair: AutomatedTester
15:39:19 <AutomatedTester_> agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2021-10-BiDi
15:39:35 <AutomatedTester_> Scribe: David Burns
15:39:45 <AutomatedTester_> scribenick: AutomatedTester
15:40:06 <AutomatedTester_> RRSAgent: create minutes
15:40:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/13-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester_
15:41:02 <jgraham> RRSAgent: Make logs public
15:41:08 <jgraham> RRSAgent: Make minutes v2
15:41:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/13-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
15:41:31 <jgraham> RRSAgent: stop
16:00:11 <jgraham> RRSAgent: Make minutes v2
16:00:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/13-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
16:00:59 <jgraham> present+
16:01:38 <jdescottes> present+
16:02:30 <sadym> present+
16:03:43 <foolip> present+
16:04:03 <brwalder> brwalder has joined #webdriver
16:04:28 <brwalder> present+
16:04:36 <simonstewart> simonstewart has joined #webdriver
16:04:55 <simonstewart> present+
16:05:18 <AutomatedTester> present+
16:05:22 <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2021-10-BiDi
16:05:49 <jgraham> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2021-10-BiDi
16:06:34 <jgraham> ScribeNick: jgraham
16:06:37 <jgraham> Topic: TPAC
16:06:49 <patrickangle_> patrickangle_ has joined #webdriver
16:08:04 <jgraham> AutomatedTester: Nothing currently organised. But TPAC is remote so there's still the possibility to organise something. Do we want something extra for TPAC or is the current cadence OK? If we do need something, what do people want? Also Web Extensions want to speak to us, we should find a way to make that work.
16:08:36 <jgraham> q?
16:08:37 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:08:44 <jgraham> q+
16:10:03 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
16:10:31 <jgraham> jgraham: No obvious need for an extra meeting from my side, but would be good to talk to WECG to see if there's the possibility to share work on some common functionality e.g. sandboxed scripts.
16:11:13 <jgraham> AutomatedTester: Don't want to overload with meetings. The current cadence seems OK to me, but I'll send out an email to check with the whole group. I'll also contact WECG.
16:11:37 <jgraham> ScribeNick: AutomatedTester:
16:11:38 <jgraham> ScribeNick: AutomatedTester
16:11:40 <AutomatedTester> action: David to email wg about TPAC
16:11:52 <AutomatedTester> action: david to email WECG to organise meeting
16:12:39 <AutomatedTester> topic: formatted args support
16:12:42 <AutomatedTester> github: (https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/139
16:12:52 <AutomatedTester> s/(//
16:13:09 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/139
16:13:54 <AutomatedTester> jdescottes: I posted a question in an issue about formatted args supported
16:14:12 <AutomatedTester> ... we looked across the implementation and there is no real interop here
16:14:38 <simonstewart> q+
16:14:39 <AutomatedTester> ... and we looked at CDP and it [describes how that works]
16:14:57 <AutomatedTester> ... and we saw that stringify doing different things in different browsers
16:15:27 <AutomatedTester> ... so my question is do we want to standradize here or push it back to consumers?
16:15:28 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:15:34 <AutomatedTester> ack simonstewart
16:15:42 <jgraham> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1731543#c9 has the clearest examples of what's going on here
16:15:55 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: I think we want to send back the formatted text to consumers
16:16:06 <jgraham> q+
16:16:13 <AutomatedTester> ... not everyone is going to be using JS
16:16:42 <AutomatedTester> ... we can send back different things depending on the types and some of it could be relatively undefinied
16:17:25 <AutomatedTester> ... additionally, we can send back larger groupds of data to help people not do a lot of small calls across the internet
16:17:27 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:17:30 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
16:17:57 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: CDP already doesn't fill in the format specifiers over the wire
16:18:30 <AutomatedTester> ... and doesn't on the surface it doesn't know about substitution
16:19:12 <simonstewart> q+
16:19:20 <AutomatedTester> ... however there is a argumnet that makes all the clients do the work may not be worth it because we can simplify it on browser side
16:19:55 <AutomatedTester> ... and there could be a potential interop problem if things are not the same
16:20:21 <AutomatedTester> ... I think I am currently leaning on the client doing the substitutions as we have prior art in puppeteer
16:21:04 <AutomatedTester> ... and maybe in the future we can get to a point where we start the allow people to ask for the formatting but
16:21:06 <foolip> q+
16:21:17 <AutomatedTester> ... would prefer to do the simplier thing now (unformatted)
16:21:20 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:21:25 <AutomatedTester> ack simonstewart
16:21:56 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: I am not sure the formatting consistency is a real issue
16:22:32 <AutomatedTester> ... it might be easier in the browser but there is a lot of work for clients and can lower the quality for end users if it is not implemented properly
16:23:18 <AutomatedTester> ... if people are using the logs to be searched they will be looking for messages they injected specifically
16:23:21 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:23:25 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
16:23:47 <AutomatedTester> foolip: what is that cdp/marionette currently do?
16:24:24 <AutomatedTester> jdescottes: You can go to the issue and see the differences in the implementations
16:25:06 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:26:39 <AutomatedTester> topic: Events for initial about:blank
16:26:58 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/141
16:27:31 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: when we started looking at navigation we came across about:blank
16:28:06 <AutomatedTester> ... so historically about:black has been an area of bad interop
16:28:06 <foolip> q+
16:28:13 <AutomatedTester> ... and firefox is an outlier here
16:28:31 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
16:28:47 <AutomatedTester> foolip: I have an opinion but does it really matter?
16:28:57 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I don't really know
16:29:07 <AutomatedTester> ... I suspect it doesn't matter that much
16:30:15 <AutomatedTester> ... [discusses a few different scenarios around events and loading of about:blank in different contexts]
16:30:47 <AutomatedTester> foolip: On the web a person can create a new page and then observe it
16:31:15 <AutomatedTester> ... so if people want it we should give it to them
16:31:29 <AutomatedTester> ... there might be reasons, they can ignore if they want
16:31:54 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: There is 1 case when you waant tocreate an about:blank and run some script
16:32:35 <AutomatedTester> ... but there might be case where we dont care where you create a frame and with a url. about:blank is loaded first and then the url and that might confuse folks
16:32:36 <foolip> I think hsivonen has had a lot of fun with about:blank and load events.
16:33:41 <AutomatedTester> ... I think we can see what the browsers are doing and make sure we do the most interoperable thing
16:33:44 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:34:29 <AutomatedTester> topic: Sending data from the local end (client) to the remote end (browser)
16:35:20 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/140
16:36:14 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: how do we serialise the arguments from the client to the browser
16:36:36 <AutomatedTester> ... and this came up from a PR that sadym did
16:36:48 <AutomatedTester> ... and we don't want to copy selenium
16:37:14 <AutomatedTester> ... so if its an ID we will run it from what's stored
16:37:52 <AutomatedTester> ... so do people have opinions on what is sent to the browser?
16:38:47 <AutomatedTester> ... [describes the events and seriablisable args]
16:39:34 <AutomatedTester> ...  so we can either have the client have a look process or have a symetrical serialisation process
16:39:50 <sadym> q+
16:40:06 <AutomatedTester> ack sadym
16:40:28 <AutomatedTester> sadym: So my idea was to have 1 source of truth
16:40:44 <AutomatedTester> ... and  we mirror from the browser to the client
16:41:24 <brwalder> q+
16:41:35 <AutomatedTester> ... e.g. If I create an object on the client side and passed it to the browser what would happen
16:42:09 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: so on the browser side it would look like a immutable platform object
16:43:08 <AutomatedTester> ... we have some strong use cases for sending back full objects to the client and not that much in the other directions
16:43:31 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:44:24 <AutomatedTester> sadym: the parametere in the `invoke` do we need this object reference? In CDP there is an implementation but it seems to be syntatic sugar
16:44:48 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I agree with you for the initial implementation
16:45:06 <AutomatedTester> ... although we should look and see what puppeteer/playwright do
16:45:15 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:45:20 <AutomatedTester> ack brwalder
16:45:46 <AutomatedTester> brwalder:  should we maintain object ideas on the client side
16:46:04 <AutomatedTester> ... I agree with sadym here that the browser should be the source of truth
16:46:32 <AutomatedTester> ... if we don't do that we have a lot of complexity on clients
16:47:01 <AutomatedTester> ... [describes a scenario]
16:47:22 <AutomatedTester> ... and I am not convinced the added complexity in browsers is worth it
16:47:50 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:47:59 <sadym> q+
16:48:22 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I don't think there is a lot of enthusiam for supporting this now
16:48:34 <AutomatedTester> ... so we'll do the simple thing which is great
16:48:37 <AutomatedTester> ack sadym
16:49:39 <AutomatedTester> sadym: one other scenario when a client receives an object with args and then sends it back the browser the args could be ignored
16:50:04 <AutomatedTester> ... and there wouldnt be a collision with things going back and forth
16:50:16 <AutomatedTester> q?
16:50:50 <AutomatedTester> topic: Reminder there is an editorial meeting
16:52:35 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes v2
16:52:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/13-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
16:53:33 <jgraham> RRSAgent: bye
16:53:33 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2021/10/13-webdriver-actions.rdf :
16:53:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: David to email wg about TPAC [1]
16:53:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/10/13-webdriver-irc#T16-11-40
16:53:33 <RRSAgent> ACTION: david to email WECG to organise meeting [2]
16:53:33 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/10/13-webdriver-irc#T16-11-52