23:54:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #epub-locators
23:54:15 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/09/29-epub-locators-irc
23:54:17 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
23:54:18 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
23:54:36 <wendyreid> meeting: Virtual Locators Task force Telco Sept 29, 2021
23:54:42 <wendyreid> date: 2021-09-29
23:54:46 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
00:00:57 <wendyreid> present+
00:03:39 <duga> duga has joined #epub-locators
00:03:49 <duga> present+
00:04:47 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub-locators
00:06:04 <BenSchroeter> BenSchroeter has joined #epub-locators
00:06:15 <BenSchroeter> present+
00:06:42 <wendyreid> present+ MaryCoe
00:09:18 <duga> scribe+
00:09:30 <Mary> Mary has joined #epub-locators
00:09:48 <Mary> present+
00:09:49 <duga> wendyreid: Asked her UX team about locators
00:10:49 <duga> ... They did focus on UI, but they also found many use cases, problems, and questions
00:11:22 <duga> ... Wanted to present this as different "modes" so the user could choose a paging mode they prefer
00:12:20 <duga> ... They had: "Screens", "Pages" (synced to published), "something not called Calculated Pages" (calculated pages)
00:12:57 <duga> ... One possible name was "Epub Standard Paging"
00:13:13 <duga> ... There are reading and sharing use cases
00:13:30 <duga> ... Need a good way of explaining the current mode to users
00:13:54 <duga> ... Could the digital epub page numbers be more consistent than print books?
00:14:31 <duga> ... That is, print edition really needs accurate edition references to be useful
00:15:35 <duga> Dan: We need to make it clear that publishers should include page lists
00:16:08 <duga> ... Epub can insert pages in a way that paper books can't (eg pages 1, 2, 3, 3a, 4)
00:16:57 <duga> wendyreid: [shows some art]
00:17:24 <duga> Dan: I thought we decided that publisher and automated pages would be the same
00:19:07 <wendyreid> duga:
00:19:45 <wendyreid> duga: We don't do screens, the user has no idea that they're different, it's either publisher pages or calculated ones
00:19:55 <wendyreid> ... no idea of a generated page vs a publisher page
00:20:05 <wendyreid> ... just a page number
00:20:20 <wendyreid> ... they just want to know their location
00:20:49 <wendyreid> Mary: Just fiction?
00:20:53 <wendyreid> duga: Mainly fiction
00:21:11 <wendyreid> ... reading of a book by an individual, not a lot of book clubs, single user cover to cover
00:21:19 <wendyreid> Mary: Linear reading
00:21:31 <wendyreid> ... I'm used to users who are academics/students
00:21:56 <wendyreid> duga: Mostly when we have that, usually they are looking at religious texts, with more concrete ways to reference
00:22:08 <wendyreid> ... if a publisher provided page numbers, we display them
00:22:19 <wendyreid> ... you wouldn't know the edition
00:22:28 <wendyreid> ... scary world of "which edition"
00:22:38 <wendyreid> ... I could see a use case for that
00:22:45 <wendyreid> ... looking for a page for an edition
00:24:03 <wendyreid> dlazin: I liked the UX proposal about the different modes
00:24:30 <wendyreid> duga: Different editions might have differing pages, but with calculated page numbers, similar benefit to pagelist
00:24:40 <wendyreid> dlazin: the pagelist becomes the predominant method
00:24:53 <wendyreid> ... we're really talking about avoiding the algorithm
00:25:13 <wendyreid> ... when you have different editions, with minor changes
00:25:24 <wendyreid> duga: It's tricky if the page list mimics a print version
00:25:38 <wendyreid> ... if you want to have a more robust system for citation
00:25:45 <wendyreid> ... you'd need those multiple pagelists
00:26:10 <wendyreid> Mary: Students will look for ebook versions, then print them out, or find the print copy
00:26:24 <wendyreid> ... it might not be many, but it's possible for people wanting to use parallel
00:26:39 <duga> wendyreid: We have two views
00:26:56 <duga> ... We have the "now" problem (switching between print and digital)
00:27:21 <duga> ... But we also have the dream version, with some pure digital people living in a world with pure print people
00:28:45 <duga> ... We don't have many books with page lists
00:28:57 <duga> ... We don't support them, so we don't get them :(
00:29:05 <duga> ... So we use screens everywhere
00:29:30 <BenSchroeter> q+
00:30:16 <duga> ... Print page numbers are used sometimes and users are confused by them
00:30:42 <duga> Ronnie: What does the text in an index say?
00:30:58 <duga> wendyreid: Whatever the author/publisher put there!
00:31:32 <wendyreid> ack BenSchroeter
00:31:33 <duga> Ronnie: Talked to a publisher that said there would be no index in the e version
00:32:21 <duga> BenSchroeter: Thinking about the complexity of modes, kind of prefer a single page number presented to the user
00:32:43 <duga> ... Feels like modes at too much complexity
00:33:18 <duga> wendyreid: Looked at citation guidelines, it is already a practice to reference the type of book referenced
00:33:28 <duga> Mary: They are moving away from that
00:33:52 <duga> BenSchroeter: And the standardization scheme makes that unneeded
00:35:57 <duga> duga: We will probably just continue to pick either authored or generated, but might provide what the source is for users that need to cite
00:36:44 <duga> wendyreid: There are two types of users, those that really care (eg anyone that needs to cite a reference) and everyday readers
00:38:29 <duga> Mary: Many universities are e first, but not epub (often PDF)
00:40:23 <duga> Dan: Only read things that are easy to read cover to cover, because jumping around is painful
00:41:20 <duga> ... Will things change or is that just the way ebooks will be used
00:42:23 <duga> wendyreid: This goes beyond what we can spec
00:43:21 <duga> ... Talked with this with some other people, it's really hard to navigate so no one does
00:44:01 <duga> ... everything is geared to fiction cover to cover reading
00:48:03 <duga> wendyreid: Do we need to make this as good as print?
00:48:32 <duga> Mary: Why not do better than print?
00:49:14 <duga> wendyreid: we had another affordance for showing page numbers in search
00:51:47 <wendyreid> duga: It's fun to modify the book with page numbers, but hard
00:52:08 <wendyreid> Mary: Maybe it can be something else
00:52:19 <wendyreid> duga: With an author-provided page number, it's easier
00:52:23 <wendyreid> ... the information is clear
00:53:34 <duga> wendyreid: Do we want a section on possible affordances?
00:54:24 <duga> ... This gives authors and reading systems an idea of why page lists are useful
00:55:03 <duga> ... Next meeting on the 15th of Oct
00:59:44 <wendyreid> ... zakim, end meeting
00:59:50 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
00:59:50 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been wendyreid, duga, BenSchroeter, MaryCoe, Mary
00:59:52 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
00:59:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/29-epub-locators-minutes.html Zakim
00:59:55 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
01:00:00 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make logs public
01:00:00 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub-locators
01:00:17 <duga> duga has joined #epub-locators
01:03:40 <duga> duga has joined #epub-locators
01:24:12 <duga> duga has joined #epub-locators
01:31:51 <duga> duga has joined #epub-locators
03:25:41 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub-locators
03:58:47 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub-locators
05:50:44 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub-locators
07:39:38 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub-locators
09:27:18 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub-locators
10:50:45 <ivan> ivan has joined #epub-locators
11:14:05 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub-locators
11:14:08 <dauwhe_> dauwhe_ has joined #epub-locators
12:39:55 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #epub-locators
13:49:16 <duga> duga has joined #epub-locators