IRC log of silver on 2021-09-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:48:11 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
13:48:13 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:48:15 [Zakim]
Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
13:51:31 [sajkaj]
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13:51:55 [sajkaj]
13:59:02 [Lauriat]
agenda+ Quick update on Error Prevention next steps
13:59:09 [Lauriat]
agenda+ Placeholder guidelines and how we incorporate into the draft
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14:00:27 [Makoto]
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14:01:21 [sajkaj]
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14:02:42 [sajkaj]
14:02:56 [SuzanneTaylor]
14:03:08 [Lauriat]
Please sign up to scribe:
14:03:18 [Lauriat]
Also we need a scribe for today!
14:03:45 [sajkaj]
scribe: sajkaj
14:04:32 [JakeAbma_]
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14:04:34 [sajkaj]
zakim, next item
14:04:34 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Quick update on Error Prevention next steps -- taken up [from Lauriat]
14:05:21 [sajkaj]
Chuck: Notes that chairs are aware there have been stresses between Silver and AGWG -- and chairs are working on how to bring us all forward togewther
14:05:31 [sajkaj]
Chuck: So, requesting everyone hold for the moment
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14:05:44 [sajkaj]
zakim, next item
14:05:44 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Placeholder guidelines and how we incorporate into the draft -- taken up [from Lauriat]
14:05:48 [jenniferS]
14:05:54 [Lauriat]
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14:06:23 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: Fleshed out enough to give an indication of what WCAG3 might look like
14:06:40 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: In the expectation and in response to the request that this is helpful
14:06:51 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: drafted based on the 2.x to silver map
14:06:59 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: does not include 2.2
14:07:07 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: these are "placeholder" guidelines
14:07:28 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: some are pretty solid, and others not
14:07:40 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: multimodality version of 2.4.5 ...
14:07:52 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: clear lang gives us something to point to
14:08:01 [sajkaj]
14:08:45 [jeanne]
q+ to remove strikethroughs for screen-reaader users
14:08:46 [Chuck]
janina: Note on conformance, when we agreed that next draft would have user generated, we would flag "that" in there. Same expectation of what we presented on media a few days ago. No commence since. May emerge more.
14:09:25 [Chuck]
janina: media, captions, described media. Portions such as text alternatives, we'll treat differently than the web publisher. Does anything drafted encompass media or user generated?
14:09:53 [sajkaj]
sajkaj: Asks about marking user generated (and media) ...
14:10:15 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: Some would be media ...
14:10:28 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: believe user gen should be kept separate for now
14:10:54 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: when we put this in a draft, there will be the framing caveat -- i.e. a direction, not a finished product to implement
14:11:08 [jeanne]
q+ to ask if members of Conformance Options could put in notes in this outline?
14:11:21 [Lauriat]
ack sajkaj
14:11:24 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: the point for now is the shape of things, not implementation ready content
14:11:29 [jeanne]
ack sa
14:11:30 [sajkaj]
ack jan
14:11:33 [Lauriat]
ack jeanne
14:11:33 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to remove strikethroughs for screen-reaader users and to ask if members of Conformance Options could put in notes in this outline?
14:11:53 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Thanks Shawn, because it's lots of work and very helpful
14:12:10 [sajkaj]
jeanne: suggests removing the strikethroughs as it's a complication for screen reader users
14:12:43 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Asks Conformance Options people to annotate where things might fit by way of notes
14:13:19 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: OK to cleanup
14:13:57 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: Not sure annotation from Conformance is yet helpful? If it would be helpful to get a sense ...
14:14:07 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: suggests ed notes in the groupings
14:14:57 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: the list at the bottom of the doc is purposefully not linking to anything -- the grouping list up top does link
14:15:09 [sajkaj]
jeanne: agrees
14:15:10 [Lauriat]
14:15:30 [Chuck]
janina: Should I look at groupings and put in editors note?
14:15:37 [JakeAbma_]
14:15:44 [Chuck]
jeanne: I'll work with you Janina if you'd like.
14:16:02 [Chuck]
janina: I was looking at it this morning, and seeing the actions that need to be taken.
14:16:07 [Chuck]
jeanne: I can help with that too.
14:16:19 [Chuck]
back to you janina
14:16:34 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: notes each grouping has a struct; many have no methods yet
14:16:48 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: methods may be the place for the note--or top level bullet
14:17:02 [Lauriat]
ack JakeAbma_
14:17:03 [sajkaj]
ack JakeAbma_
14:17:19 [sajkaj]
JakeAbma_: Confirming this is placeholder guidelines?
14:17:59 [sajkaj]
JakeAbma_: some more related to specific user need; others more like struct/framework; others like outcomes ...
14:18:21 [sajkaj]
JakeAbma_: seems they are proper goals but could be seen differently
14:18:38 [sajkaj]
JakeAbma_: seems it fits one way; but may not be our eventual approach
14:18:55 [sajkaj]
JakeAbma_: user needs had a similar challenge and came up with a different set of categorizations
14:19:30 [sajkaj]
JakeAbma_: including apis -- nav, various tech sets
14:19:43 [sajkaj]
JakeAbma_: tried to have a set that felt like they belonged together
14:20:10 [sajkaj]
JakeAbma_: sdo asking as an open question; work from these? Or should we see what sets might come out if we think about it that way?
14:20:56 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: re "is the list?" no,
14:21:10 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: it's strictly what wcag3 might look like strictly migrating from 2
14:21:28 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: this is to give an idea as we go through the process of migrating
14:21:46 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: this list will be replaced eventually
14:21:58 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: hopefully also helps with conformance work
14:22:19 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: it's been some time since we had a wider conversation as Jake is suggesting from user needs
14:22:40 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: we want to cary core principles into 3, but not as an architecture
14:23:04 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: i.e. the perceivable, etc
14:23:18 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: we should be able to find those 4
14:23:46 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: I'm inclined to hold off getting into the specifics until user needs are more fleshed out and understood
14:23:52 [Wilco]
14:24:49 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: did think we could start working through taking the intersections from user needs to give us a sense of scoping
14:25:05 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: so similar to user needs, but used differently
14:25:11 [sajkaj]
s/differently from 2/
14:25:17 [Lauriat]
ack Wilco
14:25:32 [sajkaj]
Wilco: asking why this list as starting point?
14:25:54 [sajkaj]
Wilco: if we know it's not where we will end up
14:26:25 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: mainly to use a pass of interpreting user needs and expanding some ov 2 coverage like sc around text line length
14:26:39 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: expanded to customization
14:26:56 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: overall management, overall customization
14:27:15 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: to see how well we've covered certain intersections and where coverage is missing
14:27:36 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: that was my thinking in any case. If it doesn't help, we'll try something else.
14:27:42 [sajkaj]
Wilco: Not opposed, just wondering
14:28:09 [Lauriat]
14:28:31 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: q for jake ...
14:28:50 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: before intersections I see lots of direct 2 notes; but some that aren't
14:29:01 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: is it just areframing of 2 SC's?
14:29:19 [sajkaj]
JakeAbma_: hope i understand the question ...
14:29:40 [sajkaj]
jake you're looking at intersection of functional and user needs? Yes?
14:29:42 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: yes
14:29:49 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: example C7
14:30:00 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: oops, let's try e7
14:30:20 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: notes allows for brightness adjustment
14:30:35 [sajkaj]
14:31:15 [sajkaj]
JakeAbma_: allow for making brightness adjustments
14:31:40 [Lauriat]
ack sajkaj
14:32:22 [Chuck]
janina: Brightness adjustment, very last apa call on an api, gave horizontal review approval. API for auto-adjusting brightness based on lighting conditions. Should we have not signed off? Is there some level of gradience that would move away from the mean?
14:32:38 [Chuck]
janina: Is it a factor we should consider in the api?
14:32:47 [Chuck]
shawn: Great question, but not for today.
14:33:12 [Chuck]
shawn: some note somewhere, I asked specifically to see where the line item came from. If it came from one of the existing sc's or some other work.
14:33:22 [sajkaj]
sajkaj: Notes apa signed off on a brightness api and asks whether it should be user adjustable?
14:33:31 [Chuck]
shawn: The answer was that it came from another row that has specific needs called out.
14:33:34 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: need to capture that somewhere ... not today's discussion
14:33:43 [Chuck]
back to janina for scribing.
14:34:10 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: is that correct?
14:34:12 [sajkaj]
jake yes
14:34:58 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: think we can use this mapping spread sheet to map out ...
14:35:16 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: anything not text needs text alternative for example
14:35:51 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: provides braille translation?
14:36:23 [sajkaj]
janina suggests the AT is responsible for braille, no?
14:37:03 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: provides support for non binocular needs
14:37:14 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: don't believe we have coverage
14:37:29 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: inclined we don't have this
14:37:59 [Wilco]
14:38:09 [Lauriat]
ack Wilco
14:38:09 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: asks for sanity check at this point
14:38:17 [SuzanneTaylor]
14:38:19 [sajkaj]
Wilco: having a hard time following; asks for screen share?
14:38:38 [Lauriat]
ack SuzanneTaylor
14:39:15 [sajkaj]
SuzanneTaylor: wanted to suggest intersections not well understood by a11y industry -- we need some way to mark those
14:39:27 [sajkaj]
+1 to Suzanne because APA will need that info
14:39:51 [sajkaj]
SuzanneTaylor: there also may be no way to prove some assertions
14:40:22 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: agree it would be helpful and believe we will uncover a lot of those
14:40:42 [sajkaj]
+1 to shawn
14:41:13 [sajkaj]
SuzanneTaylor: still two different categories; somethings user have told us; other things are ideas we've come up with but have no user validation for
14:41:50 [sajkaj]
SuzanneTaylor: we need to avoid guidelines that we don't need--that weren't substantiated
14:43:07 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: believe we can have two versions of this doc for those two purposes
14:43:12 [sajkaj]
SuzanneTaylor: agrees
14:43:38 [sajkaj]
JakeAbma_: worries about keeping two representations sync'd
14:44:51 [sajkaj]
jake: concerned that we not lose track and get others checking; michael proposed a db
14:44:56 [sajkaj]
Z access!
14:45:29 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: glad this has been already thought about
14:46:42 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: notes row 4 as more detailed overall needs
14:48:00 [sajkaj]
14:48:44 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: again, trying to see what's covered and what isn't
14:49:07 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: will eventually help with more than one guideline in the same intersection -- whether multiple could be amalgamated or not
14:49:58 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: notes text rendering customization as related
14:50:11 [Wilco]
14:50:27 [Lauriat]
ack Wilco
14:50:49 [sajkaj]
Wilco: surprising that ext needs to be available; but there's aria-hidden
14:51:06 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: yes, exactly
14:51:46 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: brl translation is more implied
14:51:56 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: inclined to replace with 'AT can access'
14:52:44 [Chuck]
janina: Interesting, not sure if it's the time to discuss. The braille one troubled me. ...created a problem for braille, was too focused on TTS user. I don't know how we keep those separate. That may be the issue.
14:53:16 [sajkaj]
janina notes that aria created problem for brl by focussing too exclusively on tts users
14:53:29 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: agrees there's much to look at here with use cases
14:53:38 [Wilco]
s/that ext/that text
14:54:12 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: notes zooming in/out -- think it's covered even though there's much to it
14:54:27 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: so, maybe -- we should check
14:54:35 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: color not as only means--covered
14:55:23 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: luminence contrast -- much done, but more to do
14:56:04 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: things that need distinguishing
14:56:21 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: the work of building the guidance will help us frame it appropriately
14:56:27 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: so, a maybe
14:56:30 [sajkaj]
14:56:56 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: many instances of "allow for customization"
14:57:41 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: majority may be covered; but customization brings in more users
14:58:06 [Chuck]
janina: We want to think about api's from that perspective, I believe.
14:58:13 [sajkaj]
janina notes we want to think about apis from that perspective
14:58:48 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: asks if this has been helpful
14:58:50 [sajkaj]
14:59:18 [SuzanneTaylor]
14:59:35 [JakeAbma_]
15:00:26 [sajkaj]
zakim, bye
15:00:26 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Makoto, sajkaj, SuzanneTaylor, jenniferS
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate sajkaj
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