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14:03:20 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
14:03:55 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Ben_Francis, Jan_Romann, Klaus_Hartke, Michael_McCool, Sebastian_Kaebisch
14:04:44 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #wot-td
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14:05:35 <kaz> present+ Daniel_Peintner
14:05:44 <kaz> present+ Michael_Koster
14:06:04 <kaz> present+ Cstiano_Aguzzi
14:06:24 <mjk> mjk has joined #wot-td
14:06:50 <kaz> scribenick: mjk
14:07:05 <cris_> cris_ has joined #wot-td
14:07:48 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
14:07:53 <mjk> sk: announced Klaus Hartke has joined Siemens
14:09:07 <mjk> topic: minutes
14:09:28 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#Sept_22.2C_2021
14:09:40 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2021/09/15-wot-td-minutes.html Sep-15
14:09:47 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
14:09:53 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:09:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/22-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:10:15 <mjk> s/minutes/ September 15 TD minutes review
14:10:55 <kaz> Chair: Sebastian/Ege
14:11:09 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:11:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/22-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:12:02 <kaz> present- Cstiano_Aguzzi
14:12:08 <kaz> present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi
14:12:22 <mjk> sk: any objections to approve the minutes?
14:12:24 <kaz> present+ Fady_Salama
14:12:31 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:12:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/22-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:12:37 <mjk> no objections, minutes approved for publication
14:13:17 <mjk> topic: plugfest
14:13:38 <mjk> sk: focus on functional testing
14:13:49 <mjk> topic: TPAC meeting
14:14:05 <mjk> sk: collecting topics for TPAC
14:14:32 <mjk> sk: we have the thingmodel and SDF topic
14:14:41 <mjk> sk: any other topics:
14:15:45 <mjk> mm: versioning topic wrt. TD versions, forms optionality, as part of 1.1 to 2.0 topic
14:16:41 <mjk> cris: how to reduce verbosity of TDs
14:17:15 <mjk> ... reduce duplication, etc.
14:17:43 <benfrancis> q+
14:17:51 <mjk> cris: will collect some examples and pointers
14:18:02 <benfrancis> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/labels/Defer%20to%20TD%202.0
14:18:33 <mjk> bf: re-assess issues wrt. 1.1 to 2.0 transition
14:19:13 <ryuichi> ryuichi has joined #wot-td
14:19:35 <mjk> topic: PR #1232
14:20:12 <mjk> bf: it adds another operation for queryall ongoing actions
14:20:36 <mjk> ... like we already have for events etc.
14:20:50 <mjk> ... it is a gap in the protocol binding
14:21:09 <mjk> sk: any comments?
14:21:30 <mjk> ege: what happens if an action isn't queryable?
14:22:11 <mjk> bf: we need to discuss default payloads for the new operations
14:22:32 <mjk> ... how the composite data schema is assembled from the individual source schemas
14:23:08 <mjk> ... there is more work in progress on new section that describes these payload constructions
14:23:12 <kaz> i|it adds|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1232 PR 1232 - Add queryallactions operation|
14:23:33 <mjk> sk: it's a big topic and we will handle it separately
14:23:37 <mjk> any objections?
14:23:49 <mjk> s/any/sk: any
14:24:09 <mjk> sk: PR #1230
14:24:21 <mjk> sk: typo
14:24:29 <kaz> s/sk: PR/topic: PR/
14:24:37 <mjk> ege: there were some extra quotes
14:25:04 <kaz> i|typo|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1230 PR 1230 - [editorial] fix wrong or missing use of code brackets|
14:25:30 <mjk> ege: we need to close the branch when it's merged
14:25:38 <mjk> sk: objections?
14:25:59 <mjk> ...merged and deleted branch
14:26:14 <mjk> topic: PR #1207
14:27:00 <mjk> sk: addresses the subsystem design pattern
14:27:06 <kaz> i|addresses|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1207 PR 1207 - WIP: Updates for TM Chapter|
14:27:31 <mjk> sk: uses link relation "subthing"
14:27:56 <mjk> sk: comment from Jan that sdfObject is similar
14:28:30 <mjk> ... may introduce a "tmObject" term for this pattern
14:29:03 <mjk> ... works with tmRef
14:29:13 <mjk> q?
14:29:18 <sebastian> q?
14:29:24 <benfrancis> q-
14:29:24 <mjk> q+
14:29:49 <kaz> mjk: probably add a link to SDF
14:29:54 <kaz> ... and add notes
14:30:16 <kaz> ... need use case where sometimes hierarchical
14:30:39 <kaz> ... would support both
14:30:41 <jkrhb_> q+
14:30:48 <kaz> ... the language should allow both
14:30:56 <kaz> ... still need some best practice
14:31:13 <kaz> ... need to provide some guidance
14:31:15 <kaz> +1
14:31:26 <kaz> i/probably/scribenick: kaz/
14:31:48 <benfrancis> q+
14:32:22 <kaz> sk: link concept for SDF as well?
14:32:25 <kaz> mjk: yes
14:32:30 <kaz> ... don't see many examples yet
14:33:00 <kaz> ... OneDM working on reusable examples
14:33:32 <kaz> ... the best example would be OMA spec works
14:33:41 <McCool> q+
14:33:48 <kaz> ack mjk
14:34:32 <kaz> ... probably need to add links
14:34:34 <McCool> q-
14:34:50 <kaz> ... also hold relation type
14:35:21 <kaz> ... focus on model
14:36:20 <mjk> ack mjk
14:36:25 <kaz> ack jk
14:36:38 <kaz> jr: agree with Koster
14:36:58 <kaz> mjk, could you take over?
14:37:04 <kaz> s/mjk, could you take over?//
14:37:11 <mjk> jr: do we also need to map a tmObject to a flattened TD?
14:37:18 <mjk> <yes>
14:37:22 <kaz> i/do we/scribenick: mjk/
14:37:28 <kaz> s/<yes>//
14:37:32 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:37:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/22-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:37:51 <mjk> sk: each object could have its own TD, but you could combine tham
14:37:57 <mjk> s/tham/them
14:38:17 <mjk> sk: the object only seems to make sense as a TM concept
14:38:24 <mjk> q?
14:38:39 <jkrhb_> q+
14:39:16 <mjk> ack mjk
14:39:51 <mjk> mjk: we need to figure out the pattern for hierarchical objects that have properties
14:40:01 <benfrancis> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1078
14:40:10 <mjk> bf: there could be a lot of types of link relations
14:40:29 <mjk> ... issue #1078 covers this
14:41:05 <mjk> ... can we put a link in a spec that says a TD implents a particular TM?
14:41:08 <jkrhb_> q-
14:41:21 <mjk> q?
14:41:21 <benfrancis> q-
14:41:56 <mjk> sk: this is on the list for TPAC, the linking approach as well as object
14:42:03 <mjk> .. how do we generate the TD?
14:42:50 <mjk> ... two subtopics: links + objects in TM, and how to generate objects in TD
14:43:22 <kaz> s/implents/implements/
14:43:32 <mjk> topic: issue 1205 discussion
14:44:07 <mjk> ege: just returned, need more time to address it
14:44:49 <mjk> topic: bit mapped data
14:45:11 <mjk> cris: how do we express bit fields in a schema?
14:45:48 <mjk> ... also there is some other type information that is sometimes needed (sign/width)
14:46:10 <mjk> ... also scale multipliers
14:46:29 <mjk> ... issue #1220
14:46:56 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1220 Issue 1220 - Specify sub-byte semantics
14:47:33 <mjk> ege: we need to map this to things we already have in the schema
14:48:47 <kaz> q+
14:50:02 <cris_> q+
14:50:05 <mjk> mk: in SDF we mapped things to schemas and added a small extension to flag the bit-map
14:50:45 <mjk> kaz: the TS should express the canonical data model and let the device handle binary mapping, maybe in a binding template extension
14:51:34 <kaz> s/TS/TD/
14:51:59 <mjk> mjk: like a protocol binding for schemas
14:52:17 <kaz> s/the device handle/the device (or intermediary)/
14:52:27 <mjk> cris: we need to look at the specific cases of API descriptions that might need these features
14:53:16 <kaz> q?
14:53:19 <kaz> ack k
14:53:23 <kaz> ack c
14:53:42 <mjk> sk: it's a payload binding, like the SenML discussion we had last week
14:54:01 <mjk> sk: more on the bit level
14:55:22 <mjk> mjk: maybe a general case of payload binding, information model vs. data model
14:55:35 <mjk> sk: hand the meeting over to ege
14:56:02 <kaz> scribenick: kaz
14:56:13 <kaz> topic: Binding
14:57:50 <kaz> ek: main point is restructuring
14:58:21 <kaz> topic: PR 123
14:58:40 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/123 PR 123 - WIP: Restructuring the Main Document
15:01:14 <kaz> ek: changed introduction
15:01:21 <kaz> ... split it into 3 parts
15:02:02 <jkrhb_> q+
15:03:06 <kaz> -> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/123.html Preview for PR 123
15:03:33 <kaz> ek: changed Section 4 too
15:04:36 <cris_> q+
15:07:58 <kaz> ek: (goes through section "4.1 Protocols" then "4.2 Payload Representation")
15:08:20 <kaz> ... "4.3 Platforms"
15:08:34 <kaz> ... lists Philips Hue, ECHONET and OPC-UA as examples
15:09:50 <kaz> ... Example 10 shows SenML exmaple
15:09:54 <kaz> -> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/123.html#example-10-senml-example Example 10
15:10:16 <kaz> q?
15:10:53 <kaz> q+
15:11:36 <kaz> jan: any document on possible future protocols, etc.?
15:12:13 <kaz> ek: yes, if you have new protocols, we can add them
15:12:25 <kaz> ... the ED on GH is a live document
15:12:40 <kaz> jan: ok
15:13:34 <kaz> sk: it's easier to update the binding doc than the TD spec
15:13:37 <kaz> ack cris
15:13:42 <kaz> ack jk
15:14:00 <kaz> ca: do you think we can have content type
15:14:08 <kaz> ... byte encoding, etc.
15:14:19 <kaz> ... can be related to the content type
15:14:38 <kaz> ek: octet stream can be added
15:14:56 <kaz> ca: would it be OK if I added some information?
15:15:07 <kaz> ek: yeah
15:15:35 <kaz> ... note that each section has some specific structure
15:15:52 <kaz> ... you can add new payload spec one by one
15:15:59 <sebastian> q+
15:16:08 <kaz> ca: so I can add something on Modbus
15:16:13 <kaz> ek: yes
15:17:32 <kaz> ... note that there are other binding documents for each protocol
15:17:49 <cris_> ack c
15:18:03 <kaz> s/protocol/protocol and data format/
15:19:15 <kaz> ca: maybe we should move some of the content to the TD
15:19:22 <kaz> ... and add links from the TD spec to this document
15:20:33 <kaz> sk: this (e.g., section 4.1.2.2) can be removed
15:21:16 <kaz> mjk: would make sense to say "this is binding template"
15:21:41 <kaz> ... what is missing is what is binding template and what is payload
15:22:05 <kaz> ... would avoid keeping the content payload within the binding template
15:22:40 <kaz> ek: can move the content of section 4.1.2.2 to TD
15:22:44 <kaz> ... or should remove it?
15:23:04 <kaz> mjk: how the information model abstract the payload
15:23:25 <kaz> ... for example, OCF has its own format
15:23:44 <dape> q+
15:25:54 <benfrancis> q+
15:26:17 <kaz> kaz: should think about all the three related documents, Binding, TD and Profile
15:26:32 <kaz> ... and clarify what content to be described by which document
15:26:44 <sebastian> q-
15:27:43 <kaz> ... at the moment the main target of this document, i.e., how to bind the vendor-specific data model to our standard TD is not described enough
15:27:46 <kaz> ack k
15:30:31 <kaz> ... if we'd like to use your proposed update for future discussion, maybe we can merge this content as part of appendix as the basis, and see which part to be included in TD, Profile or still included here in the Binding Templates doc
15:30:43 <kaz> dp: interested in binding to CoAP
15:30:56 <kaz> .. would like to see is payload
15:31:16 <kaz> ... somewhat connected but we can make it possible rendered published version
15:31:41 <kaz> ... so that we can choose the protocol and the data format later
15:31:59 <kaz> ... not having too many links but within this document itself
15:32:53 <kaz> ... from developer's viewpoint, it's misleading to have actual content as links
15:33:17 <kaz> ek: it's kind of complicated to describe the content without cross-referencing using links
15:33:40 <kaz> q?
15:33:43 <kaz> ack d
15:33:51 <McCool> q+
15:34:14 <kaz> ack b
15:34:30 <kaz> bf: to address the concern on the overlap with Profile
15:34:47 <kaz> ... to tell the truth wondering about why the binding document was needed
15:35:04 <kaz> ... this spec provides the template for concrete binding
15:35:56 <kaz> ... so these protocol binding templates describe existing protocols
15:36:37 <kaz> ... where the Profile document describes how to implement
15:37:29 <kaz> ek: the defaults apply non-profiled devices
15:38:18 <kaz> ack mm
15:38:22 <kaz> ack m
15:38:33 <kaz> mm: coordination with Profile
15:39:03 <kaz> ... we should watch out different terminology from Profile
15:39:24 <cris_> q+
15:39:29 <kaz> ... the current Profile is based on HTTP, and should be aligned with the HTTP binding here
15:40:38 <kaz> ... profile should be prescriptive
15:40:58 <McCool> q+
15:41:06 <kaz> ca: should we mention some specific discovery mechanisms as well?
15:41:23 <kaz> ... what should be done, e.g., for Modbus?
15:41:31 <kaz> mm: good point
15:41:37 <kaz> ... discovery has 2 phases
15:41:51 <kaz> ... we should be clear about there is HTTP URL and HTTPS URL
15:42:11 <kaz> ... interesting question is self-describing Modbus devices
15:42:37 <kaz> ... let's make an issue and have discussion during the Discovery call
15:42:39 <kaz> ca: ok
15:43:21 <kaz> ek: (shows the "1. Introduction" section)
15:43:54 <kaz> mm: let's think about non-HTTP devices for Discovery as well
15:44:33 <kaz> ek: how to proceed?
15:44:49 <kaz> ... would suggest we close this PR 123 without merging it
15:44:51 <kaz> sk: ok
15:45:14 <kaz> (closed)
15:45:59 <kaz> s/(closed)/(marked as "Draft")/
15:46:20 <kaz> sk: would see the rendered content on the main branch
15:46:35 <kaz> ... as the basis of further discussion
15:53:00 <kaz> kaz: if we can identify the changes from the previous published version, I'm OK to merge this PR
15:53:12 <kaz> ek: can identify and summarize the changes
15:53:43 <Ege> q?
15:53:52 <kaz> ... given that issue, can I merge this PR 123 itself?
15:53:54 <kaz> ack c
15:54:00 <kaz> ack m
15:54:04 <kaz> all: ok
15:54:20 <kaz> s/that issue/that issue identifies the changes/
15:54:33 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/124
15:55:36 <kaz> i|git|subtopic: Issue 124|
15:55:41 <kaz> s/https/-> https/
15:55:57 <kaz> s/124/124 Issue 124 - Specifications of Protocols submitted to node-wot/
15:56:03 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:56:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/22-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:56:34 <cris_> q+
15:56:59 <kaz> ek: don't want to include vendor-specific protocols
15:57:03 <kaz> ca: would agree
15:57:14 <kaz> q+
15:57:16 <kaz> ack c
15:57:49 <kaz> mjk: possible combination of 1 and 3?
15:59:06 <kaz> ek: can think of adding another table to section "4.1 Protocols" to mention additional proprietary protocols
15:59:37 <kaz> q?
16:00:22 <kaz> sk: we should be careful
16:02:07 <sebastian> if providing a link we should be clear if the link goes to an official document or more to an inofficial/experimental space
16:03:45 <kaz> kaz: I have 2 questions here
16:04:06 <kaz> ... 1. do we need to include all the protocols handled by node-wot implementation?
16:04:14 <kaz> ek: don't think so
16:04:31 <McCool> (I need to drop, sorry)
16:05:09 <sebastian> q?
16:09:15 <kaz> kaz: my 2nd question is how to manage this information
16:09:25 <kaz> ... possibly a registry mechanism like the DID registry
16:14:15 <benfrancis3> benfrancis3 has joined #wot-td
16:14:27 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/did-spec-registries/ DID Specification Registries
16:17:26 <kaz> kaz: we need to think about what to be included in this document
16:17:35 <kaz> ... and also how to maintain this document
16:17:54 <kaz> ... including how to add new entries for protocols and data formats
16:18:07 <kaz> ... and define the criteria and procedure clearly
16:18:45 <kaz> ... given that, my impression is that this document is getting closer a registry document rather than definition of "Binding Templates" itself
16:19:15 <kaz> ... anyway, we should continue the discussion next time, i.e., next TD call or TPAC vF2F
16:19:18 <kaz> [adjourned]
16:20:38 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:20:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/22-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:32:30 <kaz> s/topic: PR 123/subtopic: PR 123/
16:32:31 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:32:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/22-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:35:47 <kaz> i/(I need to drop, sorry)/(McCool leaves)/
16:35:50 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:35:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/22-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:36:18 <kaz> s/(I need to drop, sorry)//
16:36:19 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:36:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/22-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
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