IRC log of silver on 2021-09-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:00:34 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #silver
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logging to
13:00:36 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:00:37 [Zakim]
Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
13:00:46 [Lauriat]
Zakim, clear agenda
13:00:46 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
13:00:55 [Lauriat]
agenda+ Sign up to scribe!
13:00:59 [Lauriat]
agenda+ Sub-group updates
13:01:03 [Lauriat]
agenda+ Conformance update
13:01:09 [Lauriat]
agenda+ Guideline drafts in the migration outline working session
13:01:11 [Lauriat]
agenda+ How we might incorporate the User Needs Vs. Functional Needs mapping structure
13:01:18 [Lauriat]
13:05:49 [kirkwood]
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13:48:14 [jeanne]
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13:48:44 [jeanne]
13:49:02 [jeanne]
zakim, start meeting
13:49:02 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:49:03 [Zakim]
Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
13:49:03 [sajkaj]
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13:49:24 [jeanne]
13:49:24 [jeanne]
chair: Shawn, jeanne
13:49:24 [jeanne]
13:49:24 [jeanne]
zakim, clear agenda
13:49:24 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:49:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jeanne
13:49:24 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
13:49:24 [jeanne]
13:49:36 [sajkaj]
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13:52:25 [JakeAbma]
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13:54:41 [jenniferS]
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13:58:25 [Lauriat]
agenda+ Sign up to scribe!
13:58:27 [Lauriat]
agenda+ Sub-group updates
13:58:32 [Lauriat]
agenda+ Conformance update
13:58:34 [Lauriat]
agenda+ Guideline drafts in the migration outline working session
13:58:36 [Lauriat]
agenda+ How we might incorporate the User Needs Vs. Functional Needs mapping structure
13:58:49 [Lauriat]
14:00:09 [Chuck]
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14:00:16 [Chuck]
14:00:52 [sajkaj]
14:01:05 [ToddLibby]
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14:01:36 [Makoto_]
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14:01:38 [Lauriat]
14:01:41 [Chuck]
I'm in a location (my boat) that will soon become a "construction zone" and I will not be able to scribe and I will remain quiet unless when necessary.
14:01:54 [Makoto_]
14:01:57 [sajkaj]
scribe: sajkaj
14:02:07 [Lauriat]
Zakim, take up next item
14:02:07 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Sign up to scribe! -- taken up [from Lauriat]
14:02:20 [Detlev]
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14:02:26 [Detlev]
14:02:39 [SuzanneTaylor]
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14:02:44 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: Reminds there is a sign up at above URI. Very helpful to have this in advance.
14:02:51 [Lauriat]
Zakim, take up item 2
14:02:51 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Sub-group updates -- taken up [from Lauriat]
14:02:58 [ToddLibby]
14:03:03 [Lauriat]
14:03:33 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: Asks for any updates, noting Conformance is its own agendum
14:03:38 [jenniferS]
14:03:53 [sajkaj]
jenniferS: Structured Content has encountered several challenges with tooling
14:04:04 [tink]
present+ Léonie (tink)
14:04:09 [sajkaj]
jenniferS: Have come up with a process that includes both Google Docs and github
14:04:20 [sajkaj]
jenniferS: Still have the Monday slot booked for calls
14:04:42 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Notes provided content will be moving into draft spec soon
14:05:17 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: Any other subgroups?
14:05:26 [Makoto_]
q+ to share updates on Alt Text subgroup
14:05:38 [sajkaj]
ToddLibby: Errors has taken two weeks off with Sara on vacation
14:05:46 [sajkaj]
ToddLibby: Has reviewed Jake's spreadsheet
14:06:05 [sajkaj]
ToddLibby: Believe that's it for now
14:06:13 [Lauriat]
ack Makoto_
14:06:13 [Zakim]
Makoto_, you wanted to share updates on Alt Text subgroup
14:06:21 [sajkaj]
Makoto_: Alt Text has two items
14:06:34 [sajkaj]
Makoto_: New member and new work
14:06:55 [sajkaj]
Makoto_: New member does alt out of California
14:07:17 [Makoto_]
14:07:17 [sajkaj]
Makoto_: She's also in IPTC
14:07:44 [sajkaj]
Makoto_: This is I18n Press -- the news media
14:08:01 [sajkaj]
Makoto_: She's helping with alt, and also metadata with stock photos
14:08:30 [Makoto_]
Gaps Analysis on Techniques for SC 1.1.1
14:08:51 [sajkaj]
Makoto_: We're revisiting to see whether we need to rethink methods
14:09:16 [JF]
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14:09:22 [JF]
14:09:26 [sajkaj]
Makoto_: will be creating github issues; already have some techniques--but people will refer to them until 3 is out
14:09:51 [sajkaj]
Makoto_: So we're driving to drive both 2.2 guidance as well as getting ready for 3
14:12:58 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: Anymore?
14:13:07 [JF]
14:13:26 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Don't have latest, but Clear Words has been meeting with COGA reviewing all docs and responding to comments
14:14:24 [SuzanneTaylor]
q+ to ask question on behalf of accessibility for children's community group, even though it is not a subgroup
14:15:23 [Lauriat]
ack JF
14:15:25 [JF]
14:15:29 [sajkaj]
jf: Protocols will be starting soon
14:15:38 [sajkaj]
jf: Best time being asked
14:15:47 [sajkaj]
jf: Doodle poll or email
14:16:07 [sajkaj]
jf: Looks like Fridays, but still TBD; hoping for sometime next week
14:16:34 [Lauriat]
Wiki page started for Protocols:
14:17:10 [Lauriat]
ack SuzanneTaylor
14:17:10 [Zakim]
SuzanneTaylor, you wanted to ask question on behalf of accessibility for children's community group, even though it is not a subgroup
14:17:24 [sajkaj]
SuzanneTaylor: Not a formal subgroup, but a11y for children has started meeting
14:17:37 [sajkaj]
SuzanneTaylor: Hope to inform 3; but also other objectives
14:18:02 [sajkaj]
SuzanneTaylor: Where bst to ask for review?
14:18:03 [sajkaj]
14:18:35 [sajkaj]
jeanne: Suggests next Friday?
14:18:40 [sajkaj]
SuzanneTaylor: A Google Doc
14:18:50 [Lauriat]
ack sajkaj
14:19:44 [Chuck]
janina: I like that you are doing this. We are also looking at clear words. Clear words for kids is different from older kids, different from physics (for example). You may want to turn this into... note track.
14:20:18 [SuzanneTaylor]
14:20:29 [Chuck]
janina: Breakout session at TPAC?
14:20:39 [Chuck]
Suzanne: Will look into it.
14:20:51 [Lauriat]
14:20:55 [sajkaj]
SuzanneTaylor: sajkaj suggests considering a TPAC Brezkout presentation
14:21:17 [Lauriat]
Zakim, take up next item
14:21:17 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Sign up to scribe! -- taken up [from Lauriat]
14:21:23 [Lauriat]
Zakim, take up item 3
14:21:23 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Conformance update -- taken up [from Lauriat]
14:21:27 [jeanne]
zakim, close item 1
14:21:27 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Sign up to scribe!, closed
14:21:28 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:21:28 [Zakim]
3. Conformance update [from Lauriat]
14:21:47 [sajkaj]
14:21:50 [jeanne]
scribe: jeanne
14:22:18 [jeanne]
Janina: The group believes we are far enough along that we are ready for preliminary review and feedback on the direction we are taking
14:22:42 [jeanne]
... the majority of the group wanted feedback
14:22:59 [jeanne]
... more will come later when we have scoring strutcture
14:23:40 [jeanne]
... when it is more mature, we will have channge Techniques to Methods
14:24:08 [jeanne]
... Legacy content
14:24:29 [jeanne]
... media created after there were techniques for accessibility
14:24:40 [jeanne]
... do what you can at the time you digitized the content
14:25:05 [jeanne]
.... point to anyone who is blocking you from making the media accessible
14:25:36 [jeanne]
... when the archive is updated, then bring the accessibility up to modern standards
14:26:21 [jeanne]
... ePub and EU regulations are recommending a similar structure to what we are proposing
14:26:49 [jeanne]
... there is more work to do and open questions that we want feedback
14:26:55 [Lauriat]
14:28:03 [jeanne]
... and metadata to let users know the accessibility of the item
14:28:11 [jeanne]
... we have to write standard metadata
14:28:21 [JF]
14:28:21 [jeanne]
... Publishing has been doing that
14:28:36 [jeanne]
... Portions may include video
14:28:43 [jeanne]
... we need more and better metadata
14:29:04 [jeanne]
... we need to do it in cooperation with ePub
14:29:38 [jeanne]
... APA have meetings scheduled with EPub at TPAC. Invitations will come shortly
14:29:49 [Lauriat]
ack JF
14:30:13 [jeanne]
JF: The metadata concernh is that there are multiple ways of using metadata, and we need to discuss how to use it.
14:30:39 [jeanne]
... the ePub world uses metadata as part of a file and how to report it.
14:31:12 [jenniferS]
That's interesting… progressive web apps also use a manifest.json file for certain meta data.
14:31:25 [jeanne]
Janina: OPF manifest data was written in the 1990s and I participated in that develoopment. It has lasted well for 20 years but it needs updating.
14:32:21 [JF]
FWIW, and W3C are in discussions now about 'linkages'
14:32:28 [jeanne]
... The TPAC meeting is going to include some W3M to discuss registries and persistence
14:33:09 [Lauriat]
14:33:50 [SuzanneTaylor]
14:33:53 [jeanne]
Janina: Interested in your feedback and email the list or email Janina privately
14:34:00 [Lauriat]
ack SuzanneTaylor
14:34:35 [jeanne]
Suzanne: I find the point to "implement all the WCAG techniques" which is different from WCAG2
14:35:56 [tink]
14:36:00 [jeanne]
Janina: It is different , and this proposal is the strongest evidence that the WCAG2 Conformance model will not work for large archives in private, , NGO or public libraries want to allow archives to claim conformance
14:37:04 [jeanne]
... and following the model we started with user generated, and use the same idea with media --- follow the guidelines as far as you can -- and be able to claim conformance
14:37:26 [tink]
ack me
14:38:00 [jeanne]
... I think we will end up calling out that we will require, for example, reasonable structure navigation, as described in the 2015 W3C Note of the Media Accessibility User Requirements
14:38:43 [jeanne]
Suzanne: I find it interesting. Right now, if you have a new piece of media it needs to be accessible.
14:39:11 [jeanne]
... when I read it, I see a long-term W3C responsibility for updating techniques
14:39:27 [jeanne]
... this is putting all the responsibility on W3C and WCAG
14:40:06 [jeanne]
Janina: W3C will be developing the methods, but the developer will be responsible for implementing it.
14:40:39 [jeanne]
q+ to answer Suzanne, that we are more focused on older media, or media that have no compreshensive techniques
14:40:58 [jeanne]
... Janina, it will be stricter than WCAG2
14:41:15 [Lauriat]
q+ to add to that more generally, with active outreach to those in the platform, technology, etc. to solicit creation of those techniques when gaps exist
14:41:35 [jeanne]
Suzanne: But it gives an excuse not to do accessibity if the technique doesn't exist
14:41:57 [jeanne]
... we want to see people develop prototypes
14:42:05 [Lauriat]
ack jeanne
14:42:05 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to answer Suzanne, that we are more focused on older media, or media that have no compreshensive techniques
14:42:37 [Chuck]
jeanne: This proposal, there's a small section that is related to media that has no comprehensive techniques. 3D walkthroughs or some mapping apps.
14:43:02 [Chuck]
jeanne: Most of the proposal is related to older and archived material. We are trying to address the issue of old media that is not currently accessible. How you handle what you can do.
14:43:26 [Chuck]
jeanne: I agree that this is taking on a long term responsibility for staying on top of best practices for developing media. W3C does that now.
14:43:28 [Lauriat]
ack me
14:43:28 [Zakim]
Lauriat, you wanted to add to that more generally, with active outreach to those in the platform, technology, etc. to solicit creation of those techniques when gaps exist
14:43:36 [Chuck]
back to you jeanne
14:43:48 [JF]
14:45:01 [jeanne]
Shawn: When new techniques don't exist, it isn't the responsibility of W3C to devleop the techniques. Platforms build techniques into the platform./ WCAG3 cannot keep up with rapidly growning technologiez. We will need to involve the platforms into the standards
14:45:58 [jeanne]
Janina: SOmetimes promising technologies do not want to be involved with W3C. In APA, we try to stay connected with emerging technologies to let them know what we need.
14:46:45 [Lauriat]
ack JF
14:47:08 [Chuck]
jf: An aside. We need to do is get a clearer definition of media. Map applications doesn't meet bar for me for being media.
14:47:13 [Chuck]
jf: tends to have a timeline.
14:47:20 [Chuck]
jeanne: misspoke, from a different discussion.
14:47:31 [Chuck]
jf: for media group we need to create a clear definition.
14:47:41 [Lauriat]
14:48:11 [Chuck]
janina: I took a look at potential definitions. Right now this is a tangled mess. <lists all kinds of disparate examples>. New paper, biology. etc.
14:48:21 [Chuck]
Shawn: Going outside of scope.
14:48:30 [Chuck]
Shawn: Any other questions on this?
14:49:22 [Chuck]
Shawn: We have 10 minutes. Rather than following agenda... Let's jump to user needs/functional needs. Jeanne and I started thinking through. Want to talk to group on where things landed from those thoughts.
14:49:34 [Chuck]
zakim, take up item 5
14:49:34 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- How we might incorporate the User Needs Vs. Functional Needs mapping structure -- taken up [from Lauriat]
14:49:39 [Lauriat]
14:50:18 [Chuck]
Shawn: Link to sheet put together, Jake plugged in guidance on intersections. I made a copy, I've made no changes yet. Want to talk through approach that Jake started.
14:50:52 [Chuck]
Shawn: My understanding is the intersection of the user needs in column A and functional needs across the top... give a way of mapping out guidance across the intersections.
14:51:26 [Chuck]
Shawn: However it doesn't give a finite step of user needs because it doesn't account for depth or complexity of intersections. It can have a single points of guidance that spans many intersections.
14:51:38 [Chuck]
Shawn: D7 and D8 for examples.
14:52:06 [Chuck]
Shawn: Both have a lot of the same guidance because there is same need for perception, just a different context of need. I think what this mapping provides us is a useful way of seeing where we have coverage.
14:52:53 [Chuck]
Shawn: while we do migration. We can see what intersections we covered well, which not enough, and which have no coverage at all. My thinking is that this is not structure of WCAG 3, but is structure of coverage we can use to gauge success of WCAG 3.
14:53:03 [Chuck]
lots of words that challenged scribe :-)
14:53:10 [Lauriat]
14:53:17 [Chuck]
jake: You covered it almost perfectly.
14:54:05 [Chuck]
jake: Before directly jumping to conclusion that it might not work for other things, like structure for silver... my intention for this doc if I talk to people to get people on exactly same track as your findings.
14:54:43 [Chuck]
jake: That's how we approached it. There is one other thing here. There was a moment that I just did 3 steps back and tried to see "what was it we were doing, putting people first" focusing on real users and needs.
14:55:28 [Chuck]
jake: That is where main user list needs came from. We didn't have outcomes, there was a struggle with everyone on what outcomes are, where they fit. By coincidence, we specifically worked on main user need list.
14:55:37 [Lauriat]
q+ to suggest we maintain the same next steps as we had originally planned, plugging things into this structure to build up more data to see how this works, I think I just understand it better now going in to that.
14:56:08 [Chuck]
jake: Exactly as you say, this is built on 2 pillars. Don't forget everyone, make sure all gaps are covered, and build on 2 pillars of user needs and functional needs.
14:56:09 [JF]
14:56:43 [Chuck]
jake: This provides more insites than people grasp in 5 minutes. Takes more time to look at it. If we build everything on user needs and functional needs, there is that structure...
14:57:15 [Chuck]
jake: It's easy to say we will introduce another layer.. all those questions (chicken and egg issue), from these 2 pillars from this document everything fits in place.
14:57:52 [sajkaj]
scribe: sajkaj
14:58:08 [Lauriat]
ack me
14:58:08 [Zakim]
Lauriat, you wanted to suggest we maintain the same next steps as we had originally planned, plugging things into this structure to build up more data to see how this works, I
14:58:11 [Zakim]
... think I just understand it better now going in to that.
14:58:20 [sajkaj]
JakeAbma: Notes people becoming very enthusiastic upon review of the doc; asks others to review
14:59:12 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: Notes it may not work for WCAG3 structure; but is nevertheless very useful for WCAG3--incredibally so, especially the intersections
14:59:18 [sajkaj]
Lauriat: will give us more data
14:59:26 [Lauriat]
ack JF
14:59:42 [sajkaj]
jf: Suggest producers needs should be a third column
15:00:03 [sajkaj]
sajkaj: Or "middle persons" in the publication process
15:00:09 [SuzanneTaylor]
15:00:15 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jeanne
15:00:44 [ToddLibby]
ToddLibby has left #silver
15:00:53 [sajkaj]
zakim, bye
15:00:53 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been jeanne, Lauriat, sajkaj, Makoto_, Detlev, ToddLibby, jenniferS, Léonie, (tink), JF, SuzanneTaylor
15:00:53 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #silver
15:00:56 [sajkaj]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate sajkaj