14:55:33 RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star 14:55:33 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/09/17-rdf-star-irc 14:55:35 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:55:36 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), pchampin 14:55:40 meeting: RDF-star 14:56:09 chair: pchampin 14:56:13 regrets: james 14:56:28 date: 17 September 2021 14:56:36 agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star/2021Sep/0006.html 14:56:36 clear agenda 14:56:36 agenda+ Announcements and newcomers 14:56:36 agenda+ Open actions 14:56:36 agenda+ PR #204: Classes for RDF-star terminology 14:56:36 agenda+ Defining our path 14:56:38 agenda+ Open-ended discussions 14:56:59 Previous meeting: https://w3c.github.io/rdf-star/Minutes/2021-09-03.html 14:57:15 Next meeting: https://w3c.github.io/rdf-star/Minutes/2021-10-01.html 15:00:00 ora has joined #rdf-star 15:00:21 thomas has joined #rdf-star 15:00:25 Fabio_Vitali has joined #rdf-star 15:00:33 present+ 15:01:10 gatemezing has joined #rdf-star 15:01:31 olaf has joined #rdf-star 15:01:32 rivettp has joined #rdf-star 15:01:37 present+ 15:01:40 present+ 15:01:43 present+ 15:01:45 present+ 15:01:59 present+ 15:03:05 +present 15:03:11 present+ 15:03:54 zakim, pick a scribe 15:03:54 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ora 15:04:21 present+ 15:04:41 We must be approaching 5 sigma on this by now. 15:04:43 if Ora in room -> scribe Ora 15:04:46 scribe: ora 15:04:55 zakim, next agendum 15:04:55 agendum 1 -- Announcements and newcomers -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:05:12 q? 15:05:36 https://mosaicrown.github.io/scg2021/ 15:05:43 pchampin: Last week's workshop... 15:06:08 Thanks ;-) 15:06:10 pchampin: It went well, lively discussion, interesting things, papers will be on-line soon. 15:06:22 pchampin: Presentations were recorded. 15:06:50 pchampin: It was a hybrid conference, it was great to see people. 15:07:03 pchampin: There is a lot of interest for RDF-star. 15:07:07 q? 15:07:07 +1 15:08:27 olaf: Announcing that I have been selected to be an Amazon Scholar, I will work with the Amazon Neptune team. Still associate professor in Linköping too. 15:08:27 present+ 15:08:52 olaf: RDF-star is one of the topics. 15:08:53 q? 15:09:06 zakim, next agendum 15:09:06 agendum 2 -- Open actions -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:09:16 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Aaction 15:09:31 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star/issues/195 15:10:32 pchampin: Confirmed that process does not limit what a new feature can be. It can be limited by the charter. 15:10:49 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star/issues/196 15:11:15 scribe+ 15:11:49 ora: proposed a text explaining the distinction btw asserted and quoted 15:12:02 ... made a parallel with evaluated/quoted in LISP 15:12:06 q+ 15:12:53 ack AndyS 15:13:45 william has joined #rdf-star 15:13:55 AndyS: disagreeing with what ora is saying 15:14:17 s/disagreeing/agreeing/ 15:14:49 ... going back to the spec: a triple is a 3-tuple, that's all 15:15:00 ... there is an infinite set of it, "floating around" 15:15:05 william has joined #rdf-star 15:15:11 ... they are asserted once added to a graph 15:15:53 s/added to/put into/ 15:16:11 q+ 15:16:53 in a given graph, a triple maybe both asserted and quoted 15:16:55 ack pchampin 15:17:01 scribe- 15:17:07 not disagreeing with ora 15:17:11 scribe: ora 15:17:40 pchampin: I do not agree that the chevrons are a quoting operator, they are an embedding operator. 15:17:53 q+ to bring in some current spec text 15:18:04 pchampin: In Lisp, you can simply remove the quote. Not so in RDF-star. 15:18:18 pchampin: Context of use makes a triple quoted or asserted. 15:18:28 q? 15:18:33 pchampin: I do not disagree with the analogy, but it could be confusing. 15:18:36 Nitpick: Chevrons are the `«»` glyphs, which are distinct from double angle brackets `<< >>`. 15:18:39 "A quoted triple is a triple used as the subject or object of another triple." 15:18:40 ack AndyS 15:18:40 AndyS, you wanted to bring in some current spec text 15:19:10 AndyS: This line from the spec... change it to "...can be used...". 15:19:24 AndyS: Chevrons are doing the quoting. 15:19:37 q+ 15:19:52 ack thomas 15:20:02 thomas: Aren't we making things too complicated? 15:20:35 pchampin: I am not making a distinction between quoted and embedded triples. 15:21:05 pchampin: The main role of the chevrons are to "embed" a triple. You can only do this in a certain context. 15:21:17 thomas: Also you can only quote in a certain context. 15:21:50 q+ 15:22:14 ack ora 15:22:19 scribe+ 15:22:27 pchampin: Reluctant to see chevrons as a quoting operator. 15:24:33 Writing a triple as (:s :p :o) then ( (:s :p :o) :q "abc" ) 15:24:38 scribe+ 15:24:38 scribe- 15:25:02 Zakim, who is scribe? 15:25:02 I don't understand your question, TallTed. 15:25:15 RRSAgent, who is scribe? 15:25:15 I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'who is scribe' 15:25:23 q? 15:25:25 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:25:25 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/17-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 15:25:41 RRSAgent, make minutes public 15:25:41 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', TallTed. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:25:47 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:26:03 AndyS: Everyone has a different background, everyone's viewpoint is different. 15:26:20 AndyS: Is there anything wrong in the spec? 15:26:39 AndyS: What do we have to do, to change in the spec? 15:26:56 pchampin: Thinking was that something might be missing. 15:27:09 pchampin: I am not against adding Ora's paragraph. 15:27:24 pchampin: Details can confuse... 15:27:43 pchampin: If we think this adds to folks' understanding, then why not. 15:28:01 PROPOSED: include Ora's text in the spec 15:28:04 +0 15:28:16 ora: +1 15:28:40 pchampin: Defer the decision as not everyone has read it. 15:28:47 I can't understand where is the text going to end up... 15:29:13 is that text in a PR or Issue? (should be linked in PROPOSED & RESOLVED...) 15:29:57 pchampin: Ora please make this into a pull request. 15:30:07 pchampin: Mark as non-normative. 15:30:21 ora: OK 15:30:37 AndyS: I particularly like the last sentence. 15:31:01 action: ora to turn his proposal in #196 into a PR 15:31:08 q+ 15:31:39 q- 15:31:44 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star/issues/201 15:32:05 pchampin: I did this. 15:32:34 pchampin: Nice side effect was creating some publicity for an easier RDF repo. 15:32:54 q? 15:33:01 pchampin: My feeling is the consensus is "why not, but let's be careful". 15:33:08 +1 15:33:23 pchampin: Next two actions are mine... 15:33:37 pchampin: Not everyone has reviewed the PRs. 15:33:49 pchampin: Still have to push the other one. 15:34:04 s/an easier RDF repo/the Easier RDF repo, https:\/\/github.com\/w3c\/EasierRDF/ 15:34:22 q? 15:34:34 zakim, next agendum 15:34:34 agendum 3 -- PR #204: Classes for RDF-star terminology -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:34:48 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star/pull/204 15:35:03 pchampin: Fleshing out the vocabulary section. 15:35:37 AndyS: I took existing material, refined a bit. 15:35:53 AndyS: Discuss classes first, before discussing properties. 15:36:15 q+ 15:36:19 ack thomas 15:36:34 thomas: What is the source? 15:36:54 pchampin: 15:37:36 thomas: Is that another term for graph? 15:37:47 pchampin: No, because of mutability. 15:38:00 thomas: I read it but meaning was not obvious. 15:38:11 q? 15:38:48 pchampin: This is still bare, just trying to define terms not yet defined (RDF-star source). 15:39:27 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:39:27 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/17-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 15:39:33 thomas: It is difficult to discuss terms that are a mathematical abstraction but also very concrete. 15:40:00 q? 15:40:03 thomas: No sense discussing this yet. 15:40:22 PROPOSED: merge #204 15:40:25 +1 15:40:30 +1 15:40:31 +1 15:40:32 ora: +1 15:40:34 +1 15:40:47 s|https:\/\/github.com\/w3c\/EasierRDF|https://github.com/w3c/EasierRDF| 15:40:48 +1 15:40:58 -1 15:40:58 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:40:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/17-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 15:41:21 +1 15:41:27 My list of issues goes up to #203. Where do I find 204? 15:41:29 AndyS: I guess we don't need to add axioms like disjointness between some clases? 15:41:29 anyway +1 15:41:56 RESOLVED: merge #204 15:42:35 s|/EasierRDF.|/EasierRDF| 15:42:36 q? 15:42:47 zakim, next agendabot 15:42:47 I don't understand 'next agendabot', pchampin 15:42:52 zakim, next agendum 15:42:52 agendum 4 -- Defining our path -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:42:54 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:42:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/17-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 15:43:43 pchampin: From AndyS' email: we should give ourselves some milestones, we are soon one year old, we have achieved a lot. 15:43:58 pchampin: Also the next step: chartering a WG. 15:44:28 q? 15:44:35 pchampin: If all goes well, a future WG will take this up. 15:44:41 q+ 15:44:48 AndyS: I predict the WG will revisit a lot of things. 15:45:09 AndyS: Limited value in getting into really fine details. 15:45:29 AndyS: REC-grade doc not needed now. 15:45:54 AndyS: Early on in the WG there will be discussion by new people about what RDF-star really is. 15:45:56 q+ 15:46:10 ack thomas 15:46:11 and what RDF-star is NOW, vs original and other earlier papers... 15:46:15 AndyS: We cannot possibly have considered everything. 15:46:36 thomas: Issue #117, referential opacity, is crucial. 15:46:55 thomas: Makes a difference in many use cases, such as provenance. 15:47:05 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star/issues/117 15:47:05 pchampin: A solution or a discussion? 15:47:12 thomas: A proposal, a solution. 15:47:14 170 --> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star/issues/170 15:47:41 thomas: We should evaluate how much effort this is. 15:48:27 AndyS: Another source of validation exists. 15:48:38 thomas: The proposed semantics does not cover usage. 15:48:51 pchampin: Evidence? 15:48:58 thomas: Look on the Web. 15:49:12 thomas: I do not have to provide evidence. 15:49:31 thomas: Want a proof of how referential opacity is easy. 15:50:07 thomas: Something that is worked out. 15:50:24 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star/issues/202 is still an open action on me 15:50:32 q? 15:50:35 ack pchampin 15:50:45 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star/issues/202 15:51:18 thomas: I need an answer, then I can comment. 15:51:42 https://w3c.github.io/rdf-star/cg-spec/2021-07-01.html#alternatives-to-referential-opacity 15:52:39 pchampin: I did some prototyping in N3. I understand it is not a standard. 15:52:54 thomas: This is not how it would look in RDF. 15:53:09 pchampin: I do not share thomas' feeling on this. 15:53:34 pchampin: Please wait until that section is complete enough. 15:53:51 pchampin: PR not ready yet. 15:54:16 thomas: I am waiting, but I want to check how this works with use cases. 15:54:52 AndyS: We can change how often we have meetings if that helps. 15:55:41 pchampin: Let's use the tag "later" for some. 15:56:07 q? 15:56:08 pchampin: Other than those, we can declare we are done. 15:56:11 q+ 15:56:40 action: pchampin to review issues and propose to tag 'later' all but those necessary to finalize report 15:57:05 confirming -- current meeting schedule is every 2 weeks, so next is Oct 1? 15:57:47 zakim, next agendum 15:57:47 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, pchampin 15:57:49 q? 15:59:38 https://w3c.github.io/rdf-star/cg-spec/2021-07-01.html#occurrences 15:59:56 ack ora 16:00:11 ora: would like to discuss the problem raised in our workshop paper 16:00:26 can we have a link to the paper? 16:00:39 ... the uniqueness of triples in RDF-star makes it impossible to model some common PG patterns 16:01:16 it will be linked from https://mosaicrown.github.io/scg2021/ 16:01:26 Paper: https://www.lassila.org/publications/2021/scg2021-lassila+etal.pdf 16:02:22 bye! 16:02:22 @ora thanks 16:02:25 bye 16:02:25 good bye 16:02:27 ciao 16:02:29 bye 16:02:34 bye 16:03:23 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:03:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/17-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed