IRC log of rdf-star on 2021-09-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:55:33 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
14:55:33 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:55:35 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:55:36 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), pchampin
14:55:40 [pchampin]
meeting: RDF-star
14:56:09 [pchampin]
chair: pchampin
14:56:13 [pchampin]
regrets: james
14:56:28 [pchampin]
date: 17 September 2021
14:56:36 [pchampin]
14:56:36 [agendabot]
clear agenda
14:56:36 [agendabot]
agenda+ Announcements and newcomers
14:56:36 [agendabot]
agenda+ Open actions
14:56:36 [agendabot]
agenda+ PR #204: Classes for RDF-star terminology
14:56:36 [agendabot]
agenda+ Defining our path
14:56:38 [agendabot]
agenda+ Open-ended discussions
14:56:59 [pchampin]
Previous meeting:
14:57:15 [pchampin]
Next meeting:
15:00:00 [ora]
ora has joined #rdf-star
15:00:21 [thomas]
thomas has joined #rdf-star
15:00:25 [Fabio_Vitali]
Fabio_Vitali has joined #rdf-star
15:00:33 [ora]
15:01:10 [gatemezing]
gatemezing has joined #rdf-star
15:01:31 [olaf]
olaf has joined #rdf-star
15:01:32 [rivettp]
rivettp has joined #rdf-star
15:01:37 [rivettp]
15:01:40 [olaf]
15:01:43 [gatemezing]
15:01:45 [pchampin]
15:01:59 [thomas]
15:03:05 [Fabio_Vitali]
15:03:11 [Fabio_Vitali]
15:03:54 [pchampin]
zakim, pick a scribe
15:03:54 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ora
15:04:21 [AndyS]
15:04:41 [AndyS]
We must be approaching 5 sigma on this by now.
15:04:43 [thomas]
if Ora in room -> scribe Ora
15:04:46 [pchampin]
scribe: ora
15:04:55 [pchampin]
zakim, next agendum
15:04:55 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Announcements and newcomers -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:05:12 [pchampin]
15:05:36 [pchampin]
15:05:43 [ora]
pchampin: Last week's workshop...
15:06:08 [olaf]
Thanks ;-)
15:06:10 [ora]
pchampin: It went well, lively discussion, interesting things, papers will be on-line soon.
15:06:22 [ora]
pchampin: Presentations were recorded.
15:06:50 [ora]
pchampin: It was a hybrid conference, it was great to see people.
15:07:03 [ora]
pchampin: There is a lot of interest for RDF-star.
15:07:07 [pchampin]
15:07:07 [olaf]
15:08:27 [ora]
olaf: Announcing that I have been selected to be an Amazon Scholar, I will work with the Amazon Neptune team. Still associate professor in Linköping too.
15:08:27 [TallTed]
15:08:52 [ora]
olaf: RDF-star is one of the topics.
15:08:53 [pchampin]
15:09:06 [pchampin]
zakim, next agendum
15:09:06 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Open actions -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:09:16 [pchampin]
15:09:31 [pchampin]
15:10:32 [ora]
pchampin: Confirmed that process does not limit what a new feature can be. It can be limited by the charter.
15:10:49 [pchampin]
15:11:15 [pchampin]
15:11:49 [pchampin]
ora: proposed a text explaining the distinction btw asserted and quoted
15:12:02 [pchampin]
... made a parallel with evaluated/quoted in LISP
15:12:06 [AndyS]
15:12:53 [pchampin]
ack AndyS
15:13:45 [william]
william has joined #rdf-star
15:13:55 [pchampin]
AndyS: disagreeing with what ora is saying
15:14:17 [TallTed]
15:14:49 [pchampin]
... going back to the spec: a triple is a 3-tuple, that's all
15:15:00 [pchampin]
... there is an infinite set of it, "floating around"
15:15:05 [william]
william has joined #rdf-star
15:15:11 [pchampin]
... they are asserted once added to a graph
15:15:53 [pchampin]
s/added to/put into/
15:16:11 [pchampin]
15:16:53 [pchampin]
in a given graph, a triple maybe both asserted and quoted
15:16:55 [pchampin]
ack pchampin
15:17:01 [pchampin]
15:17:07 [AndyS]
not disagreeing with ora
15:17:11 [ora]
scribe: ora
15:17:40 [ora]
pchampin: I do not agree that the chevrons are a quoting operator, they are an embedding operator.
15:17:53 [AndyS]
q+ to bring in some current spec text
15:18:04 [ora]
pchampin: In Lisp, you can simply remove the quote. Not so in RDF-star.
15:18:18 [ora]
pchampin: Context of use makes a triple quoted or asserted.
15:18:28 [pchampin]
15:18:33 [ora]
pchampin: I do not disagree with the analogy, but it could be confusing.
15:18:36 [TallTed]
Nitpick: Chevrons are the `«»` glyphs, which are distinct from double angle brackets `<< >>`.
15:18:39 [AndyS]
"A quoted triple is a triple used as the subject or object of another triple."
15:18:40 [pchampin]
ack AndyS
15:18:40 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to bring in some current spec text
15:19:10 [ora]
AndyS: This line from the spec... change it to "...can be used...".
15:19:24 [ora]
AndyS: Chevrons are doing the quoting.
15:19:37 [thomas]
15:19:52 [pchampin]
ack thomas
15:20:02 [ora]
thomas: Aren't we making things too complicated?
15:20:35 [ora]
pchampin: I am not making a distinction between quoted and embedded triples.
15:21:05 [ora]
pchampin: The main role of the chevrons are to "embed" a triple. You can only do this in a certain context.
15:21:17 [ora]
thomas: Also you can only quote in a certain context.
15:21:50 [ora]
15:22:14 [pchampin]
ack ora
15:22:19 [pchampin]
15:22:27 [ora]
pchampin: Reluctant to see chevrons as a quoting operator.
15:24:33 [AndyS]
Writing a triple as (:s :p :o) then ( (:s :p :o) :q "abc" )
15:24:38 [ora]
15:24:38 [pchampin]
15:25:02 [TallTed]
Zakim, who is scribe?
15:25:02 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, TallTed.
15:25:15 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, who is scribe?
15:25:15 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'who is scribe'
15:25:23 [pchampin]
15:25:25 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:25:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate TallTed
15:25:41 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, make minutes public
15:25:41 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', TallTed. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:25:47 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:26:03 [ora]
AndyS: Everyone has a different background, everyone's viewpoint is different.
15:26:20 [ora]
AndyS: Is there anything wrong in the spec?
15:26:39 [ora]
AndyS: What do we have to do, to change in the spec?
15:26:56 [ora]
pchampin: Thinking was that something might be missing.
15:27:09 [ora]
pchampin: I am not against adding Ora's paragraph.
15:27:24 [ora]
pchampin: Details can confuse...
15:27:43 [ora]
pchampin: If we think this adds to folks' understanding, then why not.
15:28:01 [pchampin]
PROPOSED: include Ora's text in the spec
15:28:04 [pchampin]
15:28:16 [ora]
ora: +1
15:28:40 [ora]
pchampin: Defer the decision as not everyone has read it.
15:28:47 [Fabio_Vitali]
I can't understand where is the text going to end up...
15:29:13 [TallTed]
is that text in a PR or Issue? (should be linked in PROPOSED & RESOLVED...)
15:29:57 [ora]
pchampin: Ora please make this into a pull request.
15:30:07 [ora]
pchampin: Mark as non-normative.
15:30:21 [ora]
ora: OK
15:30:37 [ora]
AndyS: I particularly like the last sentence.
15:31:01 [pchampin]
action: ora to turn his proposal in #196 into a PR
15:31:08 [thomas]
15:31:39 [thomas]
15:31:44 [pchampin]
15:32:05 [ora]
pchampin: I did this.
15:32:34 [ora]
pchampin: Nice side effect was creating some publicity for an easier RDF repo.
15:32:54 [pchampin]
15:33:01 [ora]
pchampin: My feeling is the consensus is "why not, but let's be careful".
15:33:08 [AndyS]
15:33:23 [ora]
pchampin: Next two actions are mine...
15:33:37 [ora]
pchampin: Not everyone has reviewed the PRs.
15:33:49 [ora]
pchampin: Still have to push the other one.
15:34:04 [TallTed]
s/an easier RDF repo/the Easier RDF repo, https:\/\/\/w3c\/EasierRDF/
15:34:22 [pchampin]
15:34:34 [pchampin]
zakim, next agendum
15:34:34 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- PR #204: Classes for RDF-star terminology -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:34:48 [pchampin]
15:35:03 [ora]
pchampin: Fleshing out the vocabulary section.
15:35:37 [ora]
AndyS: I took existing material, refined a bit.
15:35:53 [ora]
AndyS: Discuss classes first, before discussing properties.
15:36:15 [thomas]
15:36:19 [pchampin]
ack thomas
15:36:34 [ora]
thomas: What is the source?
15:36:54 [ora]
pchampin: <scribe missed the answer...>
15:37:36 [ora]
thomas: Is that another term for graph?
15:37:47 [ora]
pchampin: No, because of mutability.
15:38:00 [ora]
thomas: I read it but meaning was not obvious.
15:38:11 [pchampin]
15:38:48 [ora]
pchampin: This is still bare, just trying to define terms not yet defined (RDF-star source).
15:39:27 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:39:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate TallTed
15:39:33 [ora]
thomas: It is difficult to discuss terms that are a mathematical abstraction but also very concrete.
15:40:00 [pchampin]
15:40:03 [ora]
thomas: No sense discussing this yet.
15:40:22 [pchampin]
PROPOSED: merge #204
15:40:25 [pchampin]
15:40:30 [olaf]
15:40:31 [AndyS]
15:40:32 [ora]
ora: +1
15:40:34 [gatemezing]
15:40:47 [TallTed]
15:40:48 [TallTed]
15:40:58 [thomas]
15:40:58 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:40:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate TallTed
15:41:21 [rivettp]
15:41:27 [Fabio_Vitali]
My list of issues goes up to #203. Where do I find 204?
15:41:29 [gatemezing]
AndyS: I guess we don't need to add axioms like disjointness between some clases?
15:41:29 [Fabio_Vitali]
anyway +1
15:41:56 [pchampin]
RESOLVED: merge #204
15:42:35 [TallTed]
15:42:36 [pchampin]
15:42:47 [pchampin]
zakim, next agendabot
15:42:47 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'next agendabot', pchampin
15:42:52 [pchampin]
zakim, next agendum
15:42:52 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Defining our path -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:42:54 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:42:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate TallTed
15:43:43 [ora]
pchampin: From AndyS' email: we should give ourselves some milestones, we are soon one year old, we have achieved a lot.
15:43:58 [ora]
pchampin: Also the next step: chartering a WG.
15:44:28 [pchampin]
15:44:35 [ora]
pchampin: If all goes well, a future WG will take this up.
15:44:41 [thomas]
15:44:48 [ora]
AndyS: I predict the WG will revisit a lot of things.
15:45:09 [ora]
AndyS: Limited value in getting into really fine details.
15:45:29 [ora]
AndyS: REC-grade doc not needed now.
15:45:54 [ora]
AndyS: Early on in the WG there will be discussion by new people about what RDF-star really is.
15:45:56 [pchampin]
15:46:10 [pchampin]
ack thomas
15:46:11 [TallTed]
and what RDF-star is NOW, vs original and other earlier papers...
15:46:15 [ora]
AndyS: We cannot possibly have considered everything.
15:46:36 [ora]
thomas: Issue #117, referential opacity, is crucial.
15:46:55 [ora]
thomas: Makes a difference in many use cases, such as provenance.
15:47:05 [pchampin]
15:47:05 [ora]
pchampin: A solution or a discussion?
15:47:12 [ora]
thomas: A proposal, a solution.
15:47:14 [AndyS]
170 -->
15:47:41 [ora]
thomas: We should evaluate how much effort this is.
15:48:27 [ora]
AndyS: Another source of validation exists.
15:48:38 [ora]
thomas: The proposed semantics does not cover usage.
15:48:51 [ora]
pchampin: Evidence?
15:48:58 [ora]
thomas: Look on the Web.
15:49:12 [ora]
thomas: I do not have to provide evidence.
15:49:31 [ora]
thomas: Want a proof of how referential opacity is easy.
15:50:07 [ora]
thomas: Something that is worked out.
15:50:24 [olaf] is still an open action on me
15:50:32 [pchampin]
15:50:35 [pchampin]
ack pchampin
15:50:45 [pchampin]
15:51:18 [ora]
thomas: I need an answer, then I can comment.
15:51:42 [pchampin]
15:52:39 [ora]
pchampin: I did some prototyping in N3. I understand it is not a standard.
15:52:54 [ora]
thomas: This is not how it would look in RDF.
15:53:09 [ora]
pchampin: I do not share thomas' feeling on this.
15:53:34 [ora]
pchampin: Please wait until that section is complete enough.
15:53:51 [ora]
pchampin: PR not ready yet.
15:54:16 [ora]
thomas: I am waiting, but I want to check how this works with use cases.
15:54:52 [ora]
AndyS: We can change how often we have meetings if that helps.
15:55:41 [ora]
pchampin: Let's use the tag "later" for some.
15:56:07 [pchampin]
15:56:08 [ora]
pchampin: Other than those, we can declare we are done.
15:56:11 [ora]
15:56:40 [pchampin]
action: pchampin to review issues and propose to tag 'later' all but those necessary to finalize report
15:57:05 [TallTed]
confirming -- current meeting schedule is every 2 weeks, so next is Oct 1?
15:57:47 [pchampin]
zakim, next agendum
15:57:47 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, pchampin
15:57:49 [pchampin]
15:59:38 [pchampin]
15:59:56 [pchampin]
ack ora
16:00:11 [pchampin]
ora: would like to discuss the problem raised in our workshop paper
16:00:26 [Fabio_Vitali]
can we have a link to the paper?
16:00:39 [pchampin]
... the uniqueness of triples in RDF-star makes it impossible to model some common PG patterns
16:01:16 [pchampin]
it will be linked from
16:01:26 [ora]
16:02:22 [ora]
16:02:22 [Fabio_Vitali]
@ora thanks
16:02:25 [Fabio_Vitali]
16:02:25 [thomas]
good bye
16:02:27 [TallTed]
16:02:29 [olaf]
16:02:34 [gatemezing]
16:03:23 [TallTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:03:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate TallTed