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14:06:40 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Ben_Francis, Cristiano_Aguzzi, Daniel_Peintner, Jan_Romann, Michael_McCool, Philipp_Blum
14:07:28 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
14:07:32 <kaz> chair: Sebastian
14:07:33 <jkrhb_> jkrhb_ has joined #wot-td
14:07:38 <kaz> scribenick: cris
14:07:52 <cris> topic: Previous minutes
14:07:55 <jkrhb_> present+ Jan_Romann
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14:08:36 <cris> seb: we review some PRs
14:08:49 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
14:08:57 <cris> ... notice that today we'll review signatures
14:08:59 <kaz> present+ Michael_Koster, Tomoaki_Mizushima
14:09:12 <cris> ... we discussed also about action operations
14:10:01 <kaz> i|we review some|-> https://www.w3.org/2021/09/08-wot-td-minutes.html Sep-8|
14:10:06 <cris> ... then we had a presentation about a new Action model from Cristiano. it is available on github
14:10:28 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#Sept_15.2C_2021
14:10:33 <cris> ... we should evaluate it in a plug fest. Together with the current proposal
14:10:58 <cris> ... then we discussed about initial connection in forms
14:11:11 <cris> ... some doubts about the operation type.
14:11:20 <cris> ... minutes look okay?
14:11:28 <cris> ... ok then they are approved
14:11:33 <cris> topic: TD signatures
14:11:43 <cris> mccool takes the stage
14:12:35 <cris> mc: I set a new w3c repo called wot-ejs. Ejs stays for Enveloped JSON Signature
14:12:52 <cris> ... the document skeleton is already in place
14:13:18 <cris> ... some steps are really related to TD, I need to remove this dependency
14:13:27 <kaz> i|takes the|-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-ejs/ Enveloped JSON Signature draft|
14:13:35 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
14:13:40 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:13:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:14:12 <cris> ... when computing the signature is safer to inline a referenced object
14:14:43 <cris> ... I'm looking for solutions
14:16:04 <dape> q+ plular for securityDefinitions and schemaDefinitions?
14:16:16 <benfrancis> q+
14:17:04 <cris> dape: we used to have securityDefinition object called securityDefinitions
14:17:11 <cris> ... is it the same? or a new one
14:17:15 <kaz> ack p
14:17:15 <Zakim> plular, you wanted to discuss securityDefinitions and schemaDefinitions?
14:17:26 <cris> mc: it should be schemas probably
14:17:29 <kaz> s/plular/dape/
14:17:46 <cris> ... and securityDefinitionS
14:18:54 <cris> ben: inline objects are interesting, +1 about doing this in 1.1
14:18:58 <kaz> ack benfrancis
14:19:08 <cris> q+
14:19:39 <benfrancis> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/300
14:20:04 <McCool> McCool has joined #wot-td
14:20:45 <cris> mc: we labeled the issue as deferred
14:20:54 <cris> ... cause it breaks reto-compatibility
14:21:02 <cris> ... we have breaking changes
14:21:20 <cris> ... we probably can go with it but we need to least breaking changes
14:21:24 <cris> ... and warn people
14:21:38 <cris> ... this would help canonicalization
14:21:57 <cris> ... a canolical TD will always be 1.1
14:22:04 <kaz> s/reto/retro/
14:22:11 <cris> ... it improves verbosity
14:23:34 <cris> cris: do we need to stick with 1.1 label? can we go directly to 2.0?
14:23:42 <cris> mc: makes sense
14:23:48 <cris> ... is another approach
14:24:12 <cris> seb: we also did some breaking changes with forms
14:24:59 <cris> ... however we can mitigate it with text about how to be really backward compatibile
14:25:24 <cris> ... we don't have strong constraints
14:25:35 <cris> ... about backward compatibility
14:26:07 <cris> ... 2.0 is next charter
14:27:01 <cris> ... but maybe we can skip directly 1.1
14:27:11 <cris> cris: yeah that was my point
14:27:17 <kaz> q?
14:27:25 <kaz> ack c
14:27:30 <cris> mc: beside this, should I go on with a PR for 300?
14:27:34 <kaz> q+
14:27:46 <cris> seb: we can decide this in Tpac
14:27:56 <kaz> s/Tpac/TPAC/
14:28:01 <cris> ... and yes please go ahead with the PR
14:28:30 <cris> kaz: I want to stress the importance of backward compatibility
14:28:46 <cris> ... we have to think about it in every version (even 2.0)
14:28:57 <kaz> ack k
14:29:03 <cris> ... we need to be consistent
14:29:25 <cris> mc: another option is to write down just the breaking changes as 2.0 spec
14:29:50 <cris> ... and then publish a full spec 2.1
14:31:34 <cris> ... I'll go ahead with a PR
14:31:51 <cris> seb: ok, it is an important topic to be discussed during PR
14:32:02 <benfrancis> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Defer+to+TD+2.0%22
14:32:15 <cris> mk: do we have list of priorities for breaking changes?
14:32:32 <cris> seb: we was very careful about not-breaking backward compatibility
14:32:49 <cris> ... i don't know about other breaking changes
14:33:47 <cris> ... it is not easy to define backward compatibility with TD
14:33:52 <jkrhb_> q+
14:34:22 <cris> ... for example if it checks the context link it would already fail cause it is different from 1.0
14:34:40 <cris> ack j
14:35:01 <cris> jan: is the context enough to differentiate between two different versions of TD?
14:35:21 <cris> seb: yeah it should
14:35:44 <sebastian> q?
14:35:51 <cris> jan: then yes the consumer should be able to handle multiple TD versions
14:36:06 <cris> seb: I'd like to postpone this discussion to TPac
14:36:46 <cris> topic: PRs
14:36:57 <cris> seb: I'm still working on 1207
14:37:53 <cris> ... is 1208 ready?
14:38:15 <cris> ... there is also an additional PR 1226
14:38:32 <cris> ben: the twos PR are identical except for the operation names
14:39:42 <cris> ... pr is tackling representing action queues
14:40:09 <mjk_> q?
14:40:23 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/302 related Issue 302 - How do you cancel or query the state of an action request?
14:40:34 <cris> ... I tried to use the changes to create a new TD but it creates a big TD
14:41:30 <cris> ... futher more it is not clear how consumer would use variables to interrogate an action instance
14:42:02 <cris> ... simple use case becomes more complex
14:42:40 <mjk_> q?
14:42:49 <cris> ... my final idea would be to use Profile mechanism to describe this use case
14:43:02 <cris> ... separate the problem in twos
14:43:07 <cris> ... query/cancel action
14:43:14 <cris> ... and how to deal with queues
14:43:51 <cris> seb: I agree, the TD is super complex
14:44:06 <cris> ... my feeling is that the community will not use it
14:44:53 <cris> ... what about subprotocol?
14:45:14 <cris> ... like a deafult
14:45:32 <cris> ... maybe it could clearify how to link variables
14:45:45 <cris> ... and remove a couple of forms
14:45:55 <cris> ben: I kind of agree
14:46:17 <cris> ... but it works only for green field devices, which is what core profile is there for
14:46:55 <cris> ... you need out of band information
14:47:05 <cris> mk: collection supports would be nice
14:47:21 <kaz> i|I'm still|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1207 PR 1207 - WIP: Updates for TM Chapter|
14:47:39 <cris> ... would solve also this problem, is it?
14:47:43 <kaz> i|I'm still|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1208 PR 1208 - Add queryaction and cancelaction operations - closes #302|
14:48:07 <cris> ben: there is a gap
14:48:20 <cris> ... we encountered the same problem in discovery
14:48:30 <cris> ... different proposal but none of them quite work
14:48:41 <kaz> i|I'm still|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1226 PR 1226 - Add queryactioninstance and cancelactioninstance operations - closes #302|
14:48:41 <cris> ... we can continue down the road
14:48:50 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:48:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:48:50 <cris> ... how open api solve this
14:48:55 <cris> q?
14:49:24 <cris> seb: how this will look like in the core profile?
14:50:06 <cris> ben: very simple TD with a simple url enpoint for an action
14:50:13 <cris> ... and apply all the defaults
14:52:52 <cris> cris: we may find a way in the end
14:53:17 <cris> ben: I also found out that the core profile there are missing piecies
14:53:50 <cris> ... plus I agree go down with core profile
14:54:05 <cris> ... and keep working on hypermedia approach
14:54:23 <sebastian> q?
14:54:23 <cris> mk: collections might be really the key
14:54:26 <cris> q?
14:54:49 <cris> seb: I still don't understand how a TD will look like with the core profile
14:57:17 <cris> ... thinking also about plugfest in two weeks
14:57:36 <cris> ... I would try to implement both
14:57:55 <cris> ... understanding benefits of both
14:58:06 <cris> ben: +1
14:58:23 <cris> ... I have two PRs open which one should be choose?
14:58:49 <cris> ... I'd go with 1208
14:59:00 <cris> ... for simple use cases this is all you need
14:59:14 <cris> ... then we need more implementation expirience
15:00:24 <cris> ... if we'll try to describe this we need a simple mechanism that can be easily implemented by consumers
15:00:33 <mjk_> q?
15:00:46 <cris> seb: fine for margining
15:00:56 <cris> cris: +1 for merge!
15:01:21 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1208 PR 1208 - Add queryaction and cancelaction operations - closes #302
15:01:57 <cris> mc: is webthings doing something like this?
15:02:03 <cris> seb: I'm working on it
15:02:11 <cris> s/seb/ben/
15:02:22 <cris> ... but first only invokeaction
15:02:34 <cris> mc: node wot will do it?
15:02:36 <cris> dape: yes
15:04:15 <cris> seb: we are getting closer
15:05:11 <cris> subtopic: PR 1227
15:05:29 <cris> jan: small clean up of merge commit fragments
15:05:34 <cris> ... content is preserved
15:06:49 <cris> seb: good
15:06:55 <cris> mc: approved
15:07:31 <cris> seb: merged
15:07:44 <cris> topic: Issues
15:08:12 <cris> subtopic: Issue 1217
15:09:01 <cris> seb: how to describe SenMl? it has its own payload pattern
15:09:17 <cris> ... it is annoying to describe it in every interaction affordance
15:10:35 <mjk_> q?
15:10:37 <mjk_> q+
15:10:37 <cris> ... we don't have a way to describe payload patterns
15:10:44 <cris> ... should we add it?
15:10:58 <cris> ... is it a protocol binding topic?
15:12:10 <cris> ... ege proposed why don't use schemaDefinitions?
15:12:43 <cris> ... it would be cool to have external schema definitions
15:13:08 <sebastian> q?
15:13:08 <cris> q+
15:15:02 <cris> mk: I already have some TD conformant to SenML, I don't know what we are trying to accomplish here
15:15:12 <cris> ... what about using content format?
15:16:46 <cris> ... we can re-use patterns that are already there (using senml+cbor)
15:17:30 <cris> philipp: base name is just the Id in the TD, unit are repeated
15:17:45 <cris> ... I would like to use every opportunity where I can skip data
15:17:48 <cris> ... not repeting
15:17:50 <benfrancis> q+
15:18:32 <cris> mk: ok got it if something don't change that can be in the schema
15:18:41 <jkrhb_> q+
15:19:08 <cris> phillip: senMl can be skipped
15:19:09 <kaz> ack mjk
15:19:13 <kaz> ack cris
15:19:26 <cris> sorry kaz but I am in the queue
15:19:27 <cris> :)
15:19:37 <cris> I still have to speak :D
15:19:40 <jkrhb_> q-
15:19:41 <sebastian> q?
15:19:48 <kaz> q++ cris
15:19:55 <kaz> q?
15:19:59 <kaz> q- +
15:20:05 <benfrancis> q-
15:20:06 <benfrancis> q+
15:20:08 <kaz> qq+ cris
15:20:14 <cris> mk: I don't favore subprotocol
15:20:20 <kaz> q- cris
15:20:53 <mjk_> ack _m
15:21:03 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:21:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:24:23 <McCool> (sorry, have to drop)
15:24:30 <kaz> i|how to describe Sen|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1217 Issue 1217 - Payload pattern binding|
15:24:57 <kaz> s/(sorry, have to drop)/(McCool leaves)/
15:25:02 <kaz> q?
15:28:26 <benfrancis> q-
15:30:54 <dape> q+ what about json schema "default" term
15:31:13 <dape> q+ to what about json schema "default" term
15:31:52 <jkrhb_> q+
15:35:20 <jkrhb_> q-
15:37:09 <kaz> ack c
15:37:11 <kaz> ack d
15:37:11 <Zakim> dape, you wanted to what about json schema "default" term
15:38:23 <dape> ack dape
15:41:11 <kaz> (some more discussion)
15:44:11 <kaz> q+
15:46:15 <cris> discussion about how to describe SenML in the TD
15:46:22 <kaz> q?
15:46:25 <cris> Sebastian picks up
15:46:42 <cris> seb: maybe it is a common pattern also in philipp HUE
15:47:07 <cris> kaz: we should think about concrete use cases, ideally during TPAC
15:48:01 <cris> ... during PF call we was wondering why we were just a small group
15:48:11 <cris> ... I would suggest to bring this problem there
15:48:51 <cris> cris: +1 for having this in a plug fest
15:49:03 <citrullin> +1 from me as well
15:49:26 <citrullin> fair enough, good point :)
15:50:12 <cris> seb: can I ask to mjk to paste TDs in the issue body?
15:52:04 <sebastian> q?
15:52:12 <kaz> ack k
15:52:24 <cris> subtopic: Issue 878
15:52:36 <cris> seb: forms should be optional?
15:52:57 <cris> ... ben is not ok with open operation name
15:53:58 <cris> ... the motivation was to differentiate to other forms entries
15:54:13 <cris> ben: for web socket does not really needed
15:54:58 <cris> ... plus the operation name applied to a device is weird
15:56:02 <cris> seb: yeah I this should work without operation type
15:56:49 <cris> ben: I would start to putting some text saying that forms are optional
15:57:48 <kaz> i|forms should be|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/878 Issue 878 - Describing initial connection|
15:57:52 <cris> cris: I would mention validation problems
15:57:55 <citrullin> s/philipp HUE/philips Hue/
15:58:05 <cris> ... i.e. a TD may have no forms at all
15:58:20 <cris> seb: PR in flight for next week
15:58:52 <cris> ... closing the meeting, we are moving forward
15:59:29 <kaz> [adjourned]
15:59:33 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:59:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
20:24:27 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wot-td