12:57:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #epub-fxl
12:57:10 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/09/14-epub-fxl-irc
12:57:12 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:57:14 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
12:57:30 <wendyreid> meeting: FXL Accessibility Telco September 14, 2021
12:57:37 <wendyreid> date: 09-14-2021
12:57:44 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
12:59:27 <Ken_Jones> Ken_Jones has joined #epub-fxl
13:01:40 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #epub-fxl
13:02:29 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #epub-fxl
13:02:43 <gpellegrino> present+
13:04:40 <nazeli> present+
13:04:57 <Ken_Jones> present +
13:05:22 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #epub-fxl
13:05:29 <wendyreid> nazeli: [text goes here]
13:05:31 <Hadrien> present+
13:06:11 <nazeli> wendyraid: says something
13:06:28 <nazeli> wendyreid: jbbkbk
13:06:35 <wendyreid> scribe+ nazeli
13:08:58 <nazeli> wendyreid: We've started talking about the TPAC meeting, last two were virtual, we were discussing agenda, CR docs etc. It's good to do a session with our task force presenting our work. Currently we have Ken's doc and Hadrien's alternate proposal. We can present both. Let's talk today of how to prepare our proposal.
13:09:32 <nazeli> wendyreid: TPAC happening last two weeks of October. Working group is meeting 28-29 Oct.
13:09:51 <nazeli> Hadrien: Will check my schedule.
13:10:35 <nazeli> Ken_Jones: I might be away, I'll try to connect just the same.
13:11:15 <nazeli> Hadrien: My document is a gist, haven't written it more extensively. Should I?
13:11:23 <nazeli> Wendyreid: Yes
13:11:37 <nazeli> Hadrien. The idea of the proposal is that there is nothing new.
13:11:37 <Hadrien> https://gist.github.com/HadrienGardeur/7b2ed53b69379bd972250cc40e965f0d
13:13:21 <nazeli> Hadrien: It's a basic example of a single item in the spine. In the manifest two items. It's using the ability to provide a fallback to indicate a reflowable version of a document. Imagine you have a comic book, a lot going on, text as bitmap. As a user you could provide the ability to switch one or the other, or side by side. The system can show you the full page and use TTS for the reflowable part
13:13:59 <nazeli> Hardien: it's having multiple versions of a publication in the same package. The idea here is not to need multiple OPFs, just one.
13:15:34 <nazeli> Hadrien: I see it as a complimentary rather than ultimate proposal. For some publications, having a reflowable way would be a solution. This is not adding anything new in the EPUB. It's twisting the way flowback is designed.
13:16:06 <wendyreid> present+ CharlesL, gpellegrino, Ken_Jones
13:16:07 <nazeli> Hadrien: One thing missing in the OPF is this information indicating there is a reflowable version in it.
13:16:17 <nazeli> present+
13:16:20 <wendyreid> q?
13:16:46 <gpellegrino> q+
13:16:48 <nazeli> Ken_Jones: does the reading system need to be aware that this is done? Or would it be automatic?
13:17:50 <nazeli> HAdrien: A reading systelmwill have to activate the toggle switch., various affordances. This can be useful for smaller devices too. Or you can use the reflow only for screen reader. These are the two affordances that a reading system needs to implement.
13:18:20 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:18:26 <nazeli> Hadrien: Every reading system should at least be able to parce the whole file without changing anything?
13:18:58 <nazeli> gpellegrino: Would a simple demo/mock up showing the rendering be an option?
13:19:46 <nazeli> gpellegrino: maybe we can set it up easily. I can help. This way we show the code of the manifest and what it looks like.
13:20:03 <nazeli> Hadrien: Is this planned for other examples or is it only relevant here?
13:21:18 <nazeli> wendyreid: with the two versions we have, Ken's and yours, where the only difference is the 'how' (one file with alternate CSSs and yours which is using the fallback mechanism with multiple HTML files). To the user the result would be the same.
13:21:57 <gpellegrino> q+
13:22:00 <nazeli> Ken_Jones: One has one content presented in two ways, the other has two content presented in the sme way. Maybe we can mix them up.
13:22:01 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:22:40 <nazeli> gpellegrino: I would like to try to put Hadrien's manifest and run it through EPUB Checker, just to be sure.
13:22:46 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:22:52 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:23:01 <CharlesL> q+
13:23:55 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:23:56 <nazeli> Ken_Jones: I think it will pass as it is. I had an example that worked on media queries. But would the reading system actually. You would mock up what a reading system would do. We can use my demonstration as a visual demo
13:24:22 <nazeli> CharlesL: Woudl the reading system have to do something to switch between views?
13:25:12 <nazeli> Hadrien: In all cases the reading system have to do something. In my example the RS would have to display the reflowable view instead of the FXL.
13:26:21 <gpellegrino> * all the work on the RSs' back :) *
13:26:51 <nazeli> wendyreid: We can't avoid how RS render content, adding new affordance to EPUB. We'll be the mist successful if we don't have to add anything to EPUB, or VERY little. Keep these ideas in mind since in October we'll discuss what the future of EPUB is, so bear those in mind.
13:27:59 <Ken_Jones> https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Visual-to-Textual-Explainer--BSY90AjGPI8tUsc0mE8aRbQUAg-K3nAwKn2vlVqRpFyZ9KHN
13:28:13 <nazeli> wendyreid: Should we present both options? In preparation for TPAC it's worth reviewing Ken's work and add an explainer to Hadrien's proposal. We can thus present both at TPAC.
13:28:21 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:28:26 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:29:21 <nazeli> Ken_Jones: I did a video to explain what this task force is achieving and will do next, including a demo of my work. Youc an reuse that if I'm not present at the meeting.
13:29:34 <gpellegrino> q+
13:29:46 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:29:53 <nazeli> wendyreid: We can definitely use those.
13:30:39 <nazeli> gpellegrino: Wendy, Hadiren and Brady, it's for you to decide.
13:31:34 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:31:45 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:31:45 <nazeli> wendyreid: The reading system reading side is important, but it's important to get the feedback of content creators and publishers who will say which way involves less work for them. I say we propose both./
13:32:13 <Hadrien> q+
13:32:16 <nazeli> Ken_Jones: I think we should present it as one idea involving two methods and see their reaction.
13:32:47 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:33:13 <nazeli> Hadrien: I agree it's fundamentally the same principle.? The difference is when you can apply one or the other.
13:33:29 <duga> duga has joined #epub-fxl
13:34:17 <nazeli> Hadrien: There's also the question of which method works with which type of content.
13:34:51 <nazeli> Hadrien: An organisation can enhance a comic book to add the reflowable element missing there, as in the ASS you need to design in.
13:35:01 <duga> present+ (joining late)
13:35:22 <CharlesL> q+
13:35:45 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:35:53 <nazeli> Wendyreid: We can rediscuss all of this. Everyone read Ken's document.
13:36:42 <nazeli> CharlesL: We want the publishers to do it right from the first time so as not to risk them not getting it done immediately. So I'm thinking about content that's already being created.
13:37:58 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:38:01 <gpellegrino> q+
13:38:01 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:38:04 <nazeli> Wendyreid: we have TTS section, navigation section and metadata section worked by Rachel.
13:38:27 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/fxl-a11y/
13:38:45 <nazeli> wnedyreid: I'll update the doc.
13:39:51 <CharlesL> q+
13:40:07 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:41:07 <nazeli> gpellegrino: I finished the extraction of the Mondadori files, I've send them for approval. I'm concerned how to make the files accessible, fixing them from epub is very difficult but we'll try.
13:41:11 <nazeli> q+
13:44:29 <Ken_Jones> Nazeli screenshot https://www.dropbox.com/s/yel9i7upigtl58e/Capture%20d%E2%80%99%C3%A9cran%202021-09-14%20%C3%A0%2015.39.48.png?dl=0
13:44:51 <nazeli> https://stratus.media-participations.be/index.php/s/YybpKRAQWscGsHz
13:46:02 <gpellegrino> q+
13:46:15 <gpellegrino> q-
13:46:44 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:46:46 <nazeli> nazeli: here are some comics epubs of various types
13:47:33 <wendyreid> ack nazeli
13:48:12 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/2021/09/publishing-seminar/
13:49:26 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
13:49:26 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been gpellegrino, nazeli, Hadrien, CharlesL, Ken_Jones, (joining, late)
13:49:29 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:49:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/14-epub-fxl-minutes.html Zakim
13:49:31 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
13:49:35 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make logs public
13:49:36 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub-fxl
13:49:41 <wendyreid> rrsagent, good bye
13:49:41 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'good bye', wendyreid.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:49:46 <wendyreid> rrsagent, goodbye
13:49:46 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'goodbye', wendyreid.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:49:52 <wendyreid> rrsagent, bye
13:49:52 <RRSAgent> I see no action items