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13:56:50 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:56:51 <Zakim> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
13:56:59 <Lauriat> agenda+ Guideline drafts in the migration outline working session
13:57:01 <Lauriat> agenda+ How we might incorporate the User Needs Vs. Functional Needs mapping structure
13:57:06 <Lauriat> agenda+ CFC for Explainer
13:57:18 <SuzanneTaylor> SuzanneTaylor has joined #silver
13:59:02 <Lauriat> agenda+ Sign up to scribe!
14:00:42 <jenniferS> jenniferS has joined #silver
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14:00:47 <jenniferS> present+
14:00:53 <SuzanneTaylor> scribe: SuzanneTaylor
14:00:56 <SuzanneTaylor> present+
14:01:09 <jeanne> agenda?
14:01:13 <sajkaj> present+
14:01:30 <Wilco> Wilco has joined #silver
14:01:35 <Wilco> present+
14:01:39 <Lauriat> Where to sign up to scribe: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Scribe_List
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14:02:44 <Makoto> present+
14:02:49 <sajkaj> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-announce/2021JulSep/0002.html
14:02:56 <bruce_bailey> present+
14:03:02 <SuzanneTaylor> Janina: There is an upcoming symposium, research papers are invited. Please review this link for details.
14:03:43 <tink> tink has joined #Silver
14:03:43 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: thank you, looks very interesting
14:04:00 <tink> present+ Léonie (tink)
14:04:06 <SuzanneTaylor> Bruce: Can you share Web page announcement?
14:04:06 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/about/projects/wai-coop/symposium1/
14:04:18 <sajkaj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Shape_the_Future_Symposium_2021
14:04:31 <ToddLibby> ToddLibby has joined #silver
14:04:40 <ToddLibby> present+
14:05:57 <Lauriat> Zakim, take up next item
14:05:57 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Guideline drafts in the migration outline working session -- taken up [from Lauriat]
14:06:19 <Lauriat> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit#heading=h.t5lsu36jh50k
14:06:34 <bruce_bailey> thanks, that coop page was the one I saw yesterday and was thinking of as we talked
14:06:35 <bruce_bailey> https://www.w3.org/WAI/about/projects/wai-coop/
14:07:25 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: I wanted to walk folks through the outline map. This link goes directly to a location that is a little cleaner. The exercise is to write rough guidelines to show the general format for WCAG 3.
14:07:52 <SuzanneTaylor> ... I added 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 Language of page and language of parts
14:08:24 <SuzanneTaylor> ... these could be seen as just part of using HTML correctly, according to spec
14:08:52 <Wilco> q+
14:09:35 <SuzanneTaylor> ... Sara has added some user needs related to errors, and the guideline itself as error prevention.
14:09:59 <SuzanneTaylor> ... it is possible links might be grouped with error prevention, given similarities with adding a helpful label
14:10:29 <SuzanneTaylor> Wilco: We are working on tests for language of page and language of parts as well
14:10:41 <sajkaj> q+
14:10:48 <Wilco> ack w
14:11:08 <jeanne> q- where
14:11:26 <sajkaj> https://www.w3.org/TR/personalization-semantics-content-1.0/
14:12:01 <SuzanneTaylor> Janina: noting that we want to point out the purpose of a link and things like that, APA is going to candidate recommendation in a very predictable way, that browsers will pick up.
14:12:44 <SuzanneTaylor> ... not only can we support identifying purpose of links, but we can also translate among AAC symbols sets (for COGA)
14:12:46 <bruce_bailey> happy to help, it has a been long time since I used bliss
14:13:25 <Lauriat> ack sajkaj
14:14:24 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: Moving up in the outline, there is error identification and error notification, I left those as is, since Sara had already drafted those.
14:14:57 <Lauriat> User need(s) - Consistency in menus and navigation benefits people with cognitive impairments and people who are blind. Consistency in the access to navigation is also important. Consistency in interactions with components is also important.  Task-based assessment will be important here.
14:15:38 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: The grouping above that is Consistent Nav, Consistent Identification, and Concurrent Input, and target the user need I just pasted in
14:15:38 <jeanne> q+ to ask about Jake's proposal?
14:15:54 <Lauriat> Guideline: Provide similar structure and functionality via consistent paths & interactions
14:15:58 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: I added a drafted guideline for this ^
14:16:05 <Lauriat> ack jeanne
14:16:05 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to ask about Jake's proposal?
14:16:29 <SuzanneTaylor> Jeanne: This is great. Delighted you are working on this. Wondering if you have considered Jake's proposal with this?
14:17:36 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: Definitely. I began with this, but thought drafting the guidance was an important step in moving forward with trying Jake's structure. And working on the user needs mapping is also on the agenda for today.
14:18:51 <SuzanneTaylor> ... thought is we can take the concrete guidance and then map that into Jake's structure
14:19:53 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: The next group above that is 3.2.1 3.2.2 and 3.2.5. This one didn't have user needs listed, but did have methods.
14:19:54 <Lauriat> When any user interface component receives focus, it does not initiate a change of context.
14:19:59 <Lauriat> When the user interacts with a component, context remains the same.
14:20:04 <Lauriat> Warn the user that context will change when they interact with a component.
14:20:10 <Lauriat> Only change context on user request.
14:22:03 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: I boiled this down to a guideline to hopefully cover all of the types of focus: e.g. keyboard, AT, cognitive conceptual
14:22:23 <sajkaj> +1 to cognitive focus -- good catch!
14:22:26 <SuzanneTaylor> ... something to test out and see how it works
14:23:26 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: Are there any comments on the over-all level of detail at this stage, without wordsmithing
14:23:41 <SuzanneTaylor> ... we are aiming to give a sense of the overall structure that WCAG 3 will likely have
14:23:55 <SuzanneTaylor> ... with the understanding that it will change significantly
14:24:29 <SuzanneTaylor> Leonie: As someone who has been watching from a distance, this does look like a good way to move forward
14:25:14 <sajkaj> +1 to getting the overall structure before worrying too much about details
14:25:21 <SuzanneTaylor> Jeanne: This is also in response to a request for an overall view from AGWG
14:25:43 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: Moving up again in the document, there is pronunciation, reading level and abbreviations
14:26:05 <Lauriat> User need(s) -  ambiguous interpretation of words.  Does it also apply to speech input?  Would this apply more to people who are deaf, whose words may not be easily understood by machines.  Speech as a mode of input should be linked to Pronunciation, so that people don’t have to look in two places.  (example: read, read, red)
14:26:41 <sajkaj> q+ to note APA Pronunciation TF work
14:27:17 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: user need is to provide the correct pronunciation when that impacts meaning
14:27:18 <jeanne> q+ to say this was intended to be more COGA oriented than speech input oriented
14:27:29 <sajkaj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/task-forces/pronunciation/
14:27:34 <Lauriat> ack sajkaj
14:27:34 <Zakim> sajkaj, you wanted to note APA Pronunciation TF work
14:27:41 <bruce_bailey> another favorite example of mine is wind the watch versus the wind blows
14:28:00 <SuzanneTaylor> janina: APA is hoping that by the time WCAG 3 is ready for CR, this specification will be in play
14:28:50 <Makoto> SC 3.1.6 was originally from proposals from Japan. Kanji characters can have multiple ways of reading.
14:28:51 <tink> q+ to ask about intenationalisation
14:30:08 <SuzanneTaylor> Jeanne: my understanding was that this was not oriented toward speech input, but was oriented toward COGA, should we add speech input?
14:30:14 <Lauriat> Guideline: Augment text with ways to better understand it
14:30:25 <Lauriat> ack tink
14:30:25 <Zakim> tink, you wanted to ask about intenationalisation
14:30:51 <SuzanneTaylor> Leonie: How English-specific is this? Do all languages have these?
14:31:26 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: They all have their different systems and it is definitely going to get complicated as we explore different languages
14:31:53 <jeanne> q+ to talk about clear words and international plain language
14:32:19 <SuzanneTaylor> Janina; I know COGA is very interested in this and is working on updating the Content Usable document on clear words and plain language. There are significant issues as we move into different languages.
14:32:38 <Makoto> "SC 3.1.3 Unusual Words" was also originally came from a proposal from Japan.
14:32:47 <Lauriat> ack jeanne
14:32:47 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say this was intended to be more COGA oriented than speech input oriented
14:32:56 <SuzanneTaylor> ... but it is important to say what we need to without letting internationalization issues prevent us from providing the guidance that we can
14:33:14 <SuzanneTaylor> Jeanne: There is a group in the EU that is working on clear language across languages as well
14:33:17 <Lauriat> Original user need description for this grouping: both Unusual words,  abbreviations or acronyms need to a way for users to understand the meaning of words in their context.  Language barriers are also served by this.  How literal a word is in context is also an issue for people with cognitive disabilities.
14:33:22 <bruce_bailey> I can never remember the word for words that can be pronounced different:  homograph
14:33:23 <bruce_bailey> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homograph
14:33:27 <SuzanneTaylor> Jeanne: we can tap into that work
14:33:50 <SuzanneTaylor> s/Janina;/Janina:
14:34:54 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: The overall guideline itself points in the right direction, it trying to say regardless of things are written, it is good to have a way to augment that text with added info to make it more understandable
14:35:11 <SuzanneTaylor> ... one example is abbr
14:35:31 <SuzanneTaylor> ... another is a Mac short cut to show pronunciation and definitions for words
14:36:09 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: We have not yet incorporated WCAG 2.2 yet
14:36:45 <SuzanneTaylor> Jeanne: Can reading level go in with pronunciation?
14:37:04 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: Perhaps, but one is more about augmentation and the other is more about authoring
14:37:22 <bruce_bailey> lol, that was wrong.  the word I was looking for is  heteronym or heterophone:
14:37:23 <bruce_bailey> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heteronym_(linguistics)
14:37:43 <Lauriat> SC 2.5.6 Concurrent Input Mechanisms User need(s): variety of inputs, may switch between inputs at any time.  See if there is overlap with pointer cancelation
14:37:45 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: Next is language of page and language of parts which I moved to use HTML correctly
14:37:58 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: Above that is SC 2.5.6
14:38:01 <Lauriat> Guideline: Allow users to switch input modalities mid-task.
14:38:29 <SuzanneTaylor> ... moved what had been a method up to the guideline level
14:39:06 <Lauriat> q?
14:39:13 <Lauriat> Zakim, take up next item
14:39:13 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- How we might incorporate the User Needs Vs. Functional Needs mapping structure -- taken up [from Lauriat]
14:39:17 <SuzanneTaylor> ... At this point, I wonder if we have talked through enough examples to pivot to focusing on the structure Jake proposed and see if we can merge the 2
14:39:20 <Lauriat> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1POhgI_xHZtSoNbHFp3r5HYIkl6ePaP8DC5d90SZ1tF4/edit#gid=752043294
14:39:33 <SuzanneTaylor> ^ link to Jake's spreadsheet
14:40:21 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: In column 1, you will find user needs, grouped by core principle, such as "Operable"
14:44:08 <SuzanneTaylor> ... Let's choose one guideline as an example. "Allow users to switch input modalities mid-task" can go where "Operable" rows intersect with the "Mobility" columns.
14:44:37 <jeanne> q+
14:45:20 <SuzanneTaylor> ... The sense I'm getting is that this structure can help us see how well we have covered the intersection of user needs and functional needs
14:45:34 <bruce_bailey> i concur with that observation
14:45:37 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:45:45 <SuzanneTaylor> ... more so than a structure that will be part of the final structure of WCAG 3
14:45:45 <Lauriat> ack jeanne
14:46:14 <SuzanneTaylor> ... Jake's structure will be a internal Jeanne
14:46:27 <SuzanneTaylor> s/Jeanne/tool
14:47:10 <SuzanneTaylor> Jeanne: I agree. But I'm a little disappointed that this is not a shortcut to outcomes.
14:47:16 <Lauriat> ack bruce_bailey
14:47:53 <SuzanneTaylor> ... it is more of a more thorough way to track user needs
14:48:04 <SuzanneTaylor> Bruce: What is the core question?
14:48:05 <jenniferS> Perhaps check the transcript for the question?
14:48:41 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: The question is do you agree that Jake's spreadsheet is an internal tool to ensure coverage?
14:49:13 <SuzanneTaylor> Jeanne: In many ways the guidelines are becoming context topics
14:49:34 <SuzanneTaylor> ... I mean this as a question
14:50:02 <MichaelC> In review in Functional Needs group, I proposed the guidelines be renamed as user needs
14:50:03 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: Are there other things that we can use this for. The original intention was to produce outcomes.
14:51:13 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: Does that mean that this would have been Guidelines versus Functional Needs mapping?
14:51:15 <bruce_bailey> q+ to note that this SS definition for essential does not much overlap with WCAG 2.x use of that word
14:51:54 <Lauriat> ack bruce_bailey
14:51:57 <Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to note that this SS definition for essential does not much overlap with WCAG 2.x use of that word
14:51:58 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: Most guidelines will span user needs, so User needs won't work well as a top-level structure
14:52:05 <MichaelC> I plan to experiment with some slicing and dicing of the structure, via the database I´m developing, and see if it yields insights
14:52:36 <SuzanneTaylor> Bruce: The definition of essential as, "without physical harm or risk" conflicts with WCAG 2's use of "essential"
14:53:11 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: Agree, and I had been thinking of essential as simply "essential to what the user wishes to do" such as make a purchase
14:54:45 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: From here my thinking it we can continue to go through the Outline Map. Continue to compose short term placeholder guidelines. Then it might make sense to take the spreadsheet and place those placeholder guidelines in the spreasheet to see both coverage and other uses for the spreadsheet
14:55:12 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: Other next steps? What is the best way to plug the placeholders into the editor's draft
14:55:35 <Lauriat> Zakim, take up next item
14:55:35 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- CFC for Explainer -- taken up [from Lauriat]
14:55:37 <SuzanneTaylor> Jeanne: We can design a unique format to make it clear that these are placeholders. I can work with Mike on that
14:55:44 <MichaelC> Will work on a dedicated entry mechanism as things mature, and I get tools build
14:56:29 <SuzanneTaylor> Jeanne: Please check your email and please vote (for or against) on a paragraph of the editor's note, this is the last step before approving publishing the Explainer.
14:56:43 <SuzanneTaylor> ... be sure that you are replying to both lists when you vote
14:56:55 <SuzanneTaylor> ... make sure it goes to both AG and Silver lists
14:57:08 <SuzanneTaylor> Janina: What is the deadline?
14:57:14 <jenniferS> 13th
14:57:28 <jeanne> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2021JulSep/0139.html
14:57:34 <jenniferS> Wednesday September 15th at 10:00am Boston time. (sorry!)
14:57:43 <Lauriat> Zakim, take up next item
14:57:43 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Sign up to scribe! -- taken up [from Lauriat]
14:57:48 <Lauriat> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Scribe_List
14:57:56 <SuzanneTaylor> Shawn: Please sign up to scribe
14:58:56 <SuzanneTaylor> Zakim, make minutes
14:58:56 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', SuzanneTaylor
14:59:03 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
14:59:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/10-silver-minutes.html jeanne
14:59:12 <SuzanneTaylor> thx!
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15:34:51 <SuzanneTaylor> s/The overall guideline itself points in the right direction, it trying to say regardless of things are written, it is good to have a way to augment that text with added info to make it more understandable/The overall guideline itself points in the right direction. It is trying to say that regardless of how things are written, it is good to have a way to augment that text with added info to
15:34:51 <SuzanneTaylor> make it more understandable.
15:35:09 <SuzanneTaylor> rssagent, make minutes
15:36:39 <SuzanneTaylor> rrsagent, make minutes
15:36:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/10-silver-minutes.html SuzanneTaylor
15:38:35 <SuzanneTaylor> s/added info to/added info to make it more understandable.
15:38:38 <SuzanneTaylor> rrsagent, make minutes
15:38:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/10-silver-minutes.html SuzanneTaylor
16:50:31 <sajkaj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/task-forces/pronunciation/
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