13:14:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #epub
13:14:29 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/09/10-epub-irc
13:14:31 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:14:32 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
13:15:07 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2021-09-10: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2021Sep/0006.html
13:15:08 <ivan> Chair: dauwhe
13:15:08 <ivan> Date: 2021-09-10
13:15:08 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2021Sep/0006.html
13:15:08 <ivan> Meeting: EPUB 3 Working Group Telco
13:15:08 <ivan> Regrets+ matthew
13:16:40 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
13:51:51 <MURATA> MURATA has joined #epub
13:54:29 <ivan> present+
13:55:02 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #epub
13:57:08 <ivan> present+ MURATA
13:58:29 <dauwhe> present+
13:58:31 <ivan> present+ jen, avneesh
13:58:32 <dkaplan3> dkaplan3 has joined #epub
13:58:50 <avneeshsingh> avneeshsingh has joined #epub
13:58:52 <toshiakikoike> toshiakikoike has joined #epub
13:58:56 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #epub
13:58:57 <ivan> present+ dkaplan3
13:59:03 <ivan> present+ wendyreid
13:59:07 <avneeshsingh> present+
13:59:09 <toshiakikoike> present+
13:59:09 <gpellegrino> present+
13:59:14 <ivan> present+ gpellegrino
13:59:26 <MasakazuKitahara> MasakazuKitahara has joined #epub
13:59:27 <wendyreid> present+
13:59:35 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
13:59:39 <ken_jones> ken_jones has joined #epub
13:59:51 <ivan> present+ ken
14:00:08 <ivan> present+ laurab
14:00:40 <LauraB__> LauraB__ has joined #epub
14:00:51 <LauraB__> present+
14:01:00 <ivan> present+ tzviya
14:01:17 <MURATA> present+
14:01:25 <ken_jones> present+
14:01:56 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #epub
14:01:56 <gpellegrino> scribe+
14:01:57 <dlazin> dlazin has joined #epub
14:02:02 <CharlesL> present+
14:02:13 <ivan> present+ dan
14:02:27 <ivan> present+ george
14:02:37 <ivan> present+ toshiakikoike
14:02:48 <ivan> present+ brady
14:02:54 <George> George has joined #epub
14:03:07 <George> present+
14:03:42 <BenSchroeter> BenSchroeter has joined #epub
14:04:18 <gpellegrino> dauwhe: today we'll not work on issues, but more on feedbacks from task forces and TPAC
14:04:29 <gpellegrino> ... first thing is an update on testing
14:04:34 <ivan> present+ BenSchroeter
14:04:45 <gpellegrino> dauwhe: I've prepared a document on testing instructions
14:05:01 <wendyreid> s/dauwhe/dlazin/
14:05:02 <dauwhe> q?
14:05:05 <BenSchroeter> present+
14:05:12 <ivan> q+
14:05:20 <dlazin> https://github.com/w3c/epub-tests/pull/23
14:05:34 <gpellegrino> ... then we have to put metadata so we can create automatic reports from the metadata
14:05:50 <Jen_G> Jen_G has joined #epub
14:05:51 <gpellegrino> ... so we can invite non-testers to start testing
14:05:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:05:59 <Jen_G> Present+
14:06:18 <duga> duga has joined #epub
14:06:23 <duga> present+
14:06:38 <gpellegrino> ... we are looking for volonteers for creating tests for FXLs and MOs EPUBs
14:06:42 <dauwhe> ack iva
14:07:24 <gpellegrino> ivan: I have a system for automatic reporting, I can add it to the tests' repository
14:07:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:08:13 <gpellegrino> ... this system will create reports automatically for every new implementer
14:08:44 <dauwhe> q?
14:09:13 <gpellegrino> dauwhe: can you describe how the reports will work?
14:09:48 <duga> q+
14:09:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:09:55 <gpellegrino> ivan: every implementer should submit a JSON file (super simple structure) giving a true or false if the test worked or not
14:10:17 <gpellegrino> ... then the system will get all the results and create the report
14:10:24 <dauwhe> ack duga
14:10:38 <gpellegrino> ... it's really similar to the one used for audiobooks
14:11:02 <ivan> q+
14:11:07 <gpellegrino> duga: what it means that a reading systems pass a test?
14:11:14 <dlazin> q+
14:11:16 <dauwhe> ack iv
14:11:26 <gpellegrino> ... I have three reading systems, what happen if one passes and the others not?
14:11:44 <dauwhe> q+
14:11:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:12:26 <dlazin> q-
14:12:32 <gpellegrino> ivan: It's up to the WG or to the impementer to decide if it is a unique reading system or that are three different reading systems
14:12:56 <George> q+
14:13:14 <gpellegrino> ... the goal of the testing is not a beauty race, the goal is to check that the features can be implemented an
14:13:21 <gpellegrino> ... and are implemented
14:13:27 <wendyreid> q+
14:13:33 <ivan> ack dauwhe
14:13:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:13:53 <gpellegrino> dauwhe: from my point of view, the google play books is one system (with three implementations)
14:14:36 <gpellegrino> duga: we have three different teams, the clients are different, but the backend and the pipeline is common for all three
14:14:47 <dlazin> q+
14:14:47 <gpellegrino> ... so maybe yes, it's only one system
14:15:11 <tzviya> q+ to respond to Brady
14:15:16 <dlazin> q-
14:15:20 <gpellegrino> ... but what does happen if one implementation pass and the other two doesn't?
14:15:50 <dauwhe> ack Geo
14:15:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:15:53 <ivan> q+
14:15:54 <gpellegrino> dauwhe: ???
14:16:29 <gpellegrino> George: for accessibility we differentiate the OSs, since AT + OS + reading system may have really different results
14:17:16 <dauwhe> ack wen
14:17:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:18:23 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: I think that in the instructions we should say that depending on how you have implemented you systems, it may worth to test the different apps on differents OSs
14:18:42 <dauwhe> q?
14:18:52 <dauwhe> ack tzv
14:18:52 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to respond to Brady
14:19:06 <duga> +1 to wendyreid
14:19:39 <gpellegrino> tzviya: I think the epubtest.org is super important to understand how reading systems work on different OSs
14:19:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:20:17 <gpellegrino> ... it's similar to ARIA: ARIA is not tested on the browser, but on the Accessibility API exposed by the browser engine
14:20:29 <dauwhe> q?
14:20:30 <gpellegrino> ... I don't know if it is possible with EPUBs
14:21:08 <tzviya> https://w3c.github.io/test-results/wai-aria/all.html ARIA Tests
14:21:15 <gpellegrino> duga: I don't know if it's meaningful: some work is managed by the backend, other is managed by the frontend
14:21:17 <dauwhe> ack iv
14:21:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:22:59 <gpellegrino> ivan: I propose to report results in two formats: one for the W3C (unique implementations), the other for the community (separating the OSs)
14:23:17 <duga> +1 to ivan
14:23:32 <gpellegrino> duga: Topic: planning for TPAC
14:23:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:23:53 <ivan> s/duga: Topic/Topic/
14:24:29 <dauwhe> 1681/root-relative paths
14:24:29 <dauwhe> 1374/IRI of package document
14:24:29 <dauwhe> 1686/duplicate manifest entries
14:24:48 <gpellegrino> dauwhe: I think we have some important issues to discuss, but I think we need people from reading systems and from EPUBcheck to discuss with them
14:25:11 <gpellegrino> ... we also have some issues tagged as accessibility
14:25:15 <dauwhe> q?
14:25:24 <gpellegrino> ... or ask the accessibility TF to take care of them
14:25:44 <gpellegrino> ... I keep talking
14:25:46 <avneeshsingh> not all may be related to only accessibility
14:25:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:26:32 <gpellegrino> avneeshsingh: some issues require broader discussion
14:27:16 <avneeshsingh> I will go through the issues and inform chairs
14:27:19 <gpellegrino> dauwhe: we have a label on github for tagging issues that we want to discuss during TPAC
14:27:24 <ivan> q+
14:27:27 <dauwhe> ack iv
14:27:34 <gpellegrino> ... so the accessibility TF may tag those issues
14:27:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:28:34 <gpellegrino> ivan: there are some issues on vocabulary
14:28:52 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1763
14:29:12 <gpellegrino> dauwhe: yes, we have to check with publishers if those terms are used in EPUBs
14:29:13 <tzviya> q+
14:29:20 <dauwhe> ack tz
14:29:42 <gpellegrino> tzviya: we may create a survey
14:29:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:30:07 <gpellegrino> s/tzviya: we may create a survey//
14:30:31 <gpellegrino> tzviya: we may ask to distributors to check programmatically check EPUBs
14:30:32 <ivan> q+
14:30:38 <dauwhe> ack ivan
14:30:43 <gpellegrino> ... to get statistics
14:30:43 <duga> q+
14:31:20 <gpellegrino> ivan: yes, this approach is important in the process of making terms normative
14:31:40 <gpellegrino> ... if it's possible to have from two different sources it will be great
14:31:41 <dauwhe> ack du
14:31:49 <gpellegrino> ... (Google, Kobo, etc.)
14:31:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:32:18 <gpellegrino> duga: I can create a report, but I need time..
14:32:32 <gpellegrino> ... beginning of October
14:32:57 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: is it about epub:type vocabulary?
14:33:07 <gpellegrino> ivan: any vocabulary that is in the core spec
14:33:32 <gpellegrino> dauwhe: we should document what we are asking to platforms
14:33:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:35:01 <gpellegrino> dauwhe: AOB?
14:35:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:37:06 <dauwhe> q?
14:37:14 <ivan> subtopic: fxl accessibility
14:37:18 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: FXL accessibility TF is going well
14:37:36 <gpellegrino> ... we are writing the documentation, there are some sections we have to complete
14:37:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:37:56 <ivan> s/dauwhe: AOB?/Topic: task forces/
14:37:59 <gpellegrino> ... we haven't started to map content to WCAG
14:39:01 <gpellegrino> ... we are finalazing the proposal for switching from textual to visual
14:39:09 <ivan> subtopic: virtual locators
14:39:31 <gpellegrino> wendyreid: Virtual locators TF: is going well, we are working offline
14:39:43 <gpellegrino> ... we spent a lot of time working on terminology
14:39:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:39:58 <gpellegrino> ... now we'll work on proposals for solutions
14:40:37 <gpellegrino> ... probably those will work very well for textual books, but maybe not for books with images or formulas
14:40:51 <ivan> subtopic: a11y task force
14:41:09 <avneeshsingh> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1767
14:41:16 <gpellegrino> avneeshsingh: on accessibility TF: the major objectives are done, one issue there is bigger
14:41:37 <gpellegrino> ... on conformance, checking if zero tolerance is practical
14:41:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:41:53 <gpellegrino> ... we're not sure if we can fix in this version
14:41:59 <avneeshsingh> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/labels/Cat-Accessibility
14:42:20 <gpellegrino> ... for back-compatibility
14:42:25 <ivan> q+
14:42:47 <gpellegrino> avneeshsingh: for TPAC we'll defining meetings with APA
14:42:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:42:59 <gpellegrino> ... we are fixing a meeting on accessibility metadata
14:43:24 <George> George has joined #epub
14:43:29 <gpellegrino> avneeshsingh: one of the point on the agenda with APA is the accessibility horizontal review
14:43:40 <dauwhe> ack iv
14:43:43 <gpellegrino> ... but we should trigger the formal request for the review
14:43:53 <gpellegrino> ... may we move on?
14:44:38 <gpellegrino> ivan: there are some accessibility metadata that refer to schema.org
14:45:03 <gpellegrino> ... but right now we don't know if we can refer to those terms as schema.org's terms
14:45:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:45:57 <gpellegrino> ... I started a discussion with the director to check what we can do about it
14:46:04 <dauwhe> q?
14:46:14 <gpellegrino> ... one solution may be to create a CG for maintaining this vocabulary
14:46:27 <avneeshsingh> q+
14:46:56 <gpellegrino> ... Matt as already prepared a PR on this
14:47:13 <tzviya> q+
14:47:46 <dauwhe> ack av
14:47:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:47:53 <ivan> ack avneeshsingh
14:47:54 <dauwhe> ack tz
14:47:57 <gpellegrino> avneeshsingh: maybe a task force inside schema.org CG is better than creating a new CG
14:48:15 <gpellegrino> tzviya: is this an addition to schema.org'
14:48:30 <CharlesL> our values for the schema.org properties
14:48:32 <dauwhe> ack
14:48:34 <dauwhe> q?
14:48:39 <gpellegrino> ivan: no, the fact is that schema.org is not very stable, so we cannot refer to it as a standard
14:49:33 <gpellegrino> dauwhe: on review: I've sent a questionaire about security and privacy
14:49:44 <CharlesL> APA horizontal review?
14:49:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:49:58 <gpellegrino> ... next meeting me and Wendy will have a meeting
14:50:12 <gpellegrino> s/meeting/week/
14:50:13 <gpellegrino> :)
14:50:27 <gpellegrino> ivan: please Avneesh trigger the APA review
14:50:41 <gpellegrino> avneeshsingh: I'll do
14:50:49 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:50:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/10-epub-minutes.html ivan
14:50:58 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #epub
14:51:52 <George> George has joined #epub
14:51:53 <ivan> zakim, end meeting
14:51:53 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ivan, MURATA, dauwhe, jen, avneesh, dkaplan3, wendyreid, avneeshsingh, toshiakikoike, gpellegrino, MasakazuKitahara, ken, laurab, LauraB__,
14:51:57 <Zakim> ... tzviya, ken_jones, CharlesL, dan, george, brady, BenSchroeter, Jen_G, duga
14:51:57 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:51:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/10-epub-minutes.html Zakim
14:51:59 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, ivan; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
14:52:00 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
14:52:00 <RRSAgent> I see no action items